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Scudbuster

A Universe Not Made For Us

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Horta
On 11/25/2019 at 1:41 AM, lightly said:

...if I see a tiger about to leap on me...does it make much difference if the decision to MOVE arises from the subconscious before entering  conciousness?   Does it matter where the  WILL to move  initiates?  

    

Not that I can see. Not unless you want to later study the causes of the behaviour, then it might be relevant.

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Or maybe , the subject is just beyond the capabilities of my understanding.    

The whole "subconscious/conscious" thing doesn't matter anyway and the "free will" claim doesn't hinge on that. Our whole psyche has its basis in biology. It is an effect of biology, which means it has a cause.

Edited by Horta
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joc
2 hours ago, Horta said:

Luckily for Shopenauer, a fervent belief that human will is magical doesn't amount to a rebuttal. Also luckily for him, everything we understand about the universe so far indicates he was correct. You realise that the truth or otherwise of paranormal claims such as yours, doesn't hinge on how fervently you wish to believe them? What do you have to support your belief?

Smallpox can change things too (quite dramatically), can't stop the rain though, has it got free will?

Where is the false premise? Care to explain it? The mind and will have biology as their basis. This means it arises as a result of a causal chain (and can never really be "free"). For the will to be "free" it has to be free from causation, otherwise it is like everything else, determined by the laws of nature. Unless you go the quantum woo route, which makes it random. This means the "free" part is an illusion. 

This is like arguing with a creationist who neither understands evolution, nor their own claims. Libertarian "free will" is acausal, unconstrained by the physical forces of nature, it's free from causes, otherwise it isn't "free" will it's garden variety "will" that results from a very long chain of causes. Can you explain how the last 13.8 billion years evolution of the universe up to this moment, has no effect on your "will" nor has it played any part in the resulting conditions that you call "free will"? How did appear, is it it's own cause? If you don't believe that the mind and the will have a basis (ie. their cause) in biology (which makes them determined), what is it then? Is there is some magical free will fairy dust in our heads? How can it exist in our universe without cause, does it cause itself? 

It might be wise to ease up on the idiocy claims for things you can't understand, as your own belief is up there with religious claims that a fairy in the sky is controlling things (and has the same level of support) .

I guess I'm just not as smart as you...and...I obviously don't care.

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XenoFish
10 minutes ago, joc said:

I guess I'm just not as smart as you...and...I obviously don't care.

Whatever reality tunnel floats peoples boats right.

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ThereWeAreThen
On 11/23/2019 at 2:37 PM, Will Due said:

 

I think what @Horta has been saying is that humans are no different than animals.

But persons are more than animals.

However, animals never commit suicide, and the main difference between them is that persons are the sons of God. :tu:

 

 

We are not more than animals, we are animals. 

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psyche101
On 11/24/2019 at 12:37 AM, Will Due said:

 

I think what @Horta has been saying is that humans are no different than animals.

But persons are more than animals.

However, animals never commit suicide, and the main difference between them is that persons are the sons of God. :tu:

 

 

We are animals with a big well developed brain.

 

https://lca.sfsu.edu/lcanews/2018/01/09/817503-can-animals-commit-suicide-professor-peña-guzmáns-new-research-explores

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Horta
2 hours ago, joc said:

I guess I'm just not as smart as you...and...I obviously don't care.

Who knows, but the last part is obviously untrue. You seem to care very deeply.

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joc

oops

Edited by joc

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joc
14 minutes ago, Horta said:

Who knows, but the last part is obviously untrue. You seem to care very deeply.

I care not about superfluous intellectual arguments nor answering nor even thinking about the thought processes of another who is considering such.

I don't care...really...I don't! 

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Horta
1 hour ago, joc said:

I care not about superfluous intellectual arguments nor answering nor even thinking about the thought processes of another who is considering such.

I don't care...really...I don't! 

As the queen in a popular play once opined..."The lady joc doth protest too much, methinks."

You seem to have a sincere and unshakeable belief that you are a paranormal creature. Good for you.

 

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Horta

ps. It should be noted that academia has generally given up on this type of free will long ago. Apart from a group of fringe dwellers such as philosophers who are motivated by religious beliefs, or stuck in the 19th century idea of mind/body dualism. They have been trying for some time to reconcile it with naturalism, and failing miserably. Their efforts so far amount to some word salads and redefining the term "free will" to something else.

It might not seem important, but it is fundamental to our understanding of the mind. The assumptions that we start with about the mind/consciousness, and the properties (illusions) we attribute to it (such as "free will") are the very things that have held us back from understanding it. Thankfully neuroscience is slowly changing this situation. It might not be too far into the future that we gain a genuine practical understanding of mental illness. Which, in terms of easing suffering, might be the greatest leap we have made since the invention of the wheel.

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Will do
6 hours ago, Horta said:

ps. It should be noted that academia has generally given up on this type of free will long ago. Apart from a group of fringe dwellers such as philosophers who are motivated by religious beliefs, or stuck in the 19th century idea of mind/body dualism. They have been trying for some time to reconcile it with naturalism, and failing miserably. Their efforts so far amount to some word salads and redefining the term "free will" to something else.

It might not seem important, but it is fundamental to our understanding of the mind. The assumptions that we start with about the mind/consciousness, and the properties (illusions) we attribute to it (such as "free will") are the very things that have held us back from understanding it. Thankfully neuroscience is slowly changing this situation. It might not be too far into the future that we gain a genuine practical understanding of mental illness. Which, in terms of easing suffering, might be the greatest leap we have made since the invention of the wheel.

 

Have you considered that certain forms of mental illness are the result of persisting in making the wrong free will choices?

 

 

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Will do
8 hours ago, ThereWeAreThen said:

We are not more than animals, we are animals. 

 

8 hours ago, psyche101 said:

We are animals with a big well developed brain.

 

Animals are not persons.

The difference between animals and persons is that persons are the sons of God. 

 

 

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Horta
18 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Have you considered that certain forms of mental illness are the result of persisting in making the wrong free will choices?

 

 

 

Yes, but "sanity" is a bit of a misnomer when applied to humans anyway, as we only come in different shades of crazy. 

Probably enough about free will. As has been pointed out, most don't care, it will make little difference either way to people and it can be boring for those not into such musings. Most people's beliefs are rarely changed by facts or reasoned argument anyway. Usually (but perhaps not always) when belief gets challenged we just hunker down.

For instance, it seems you have your heart set on being a little piece of magic created by god and nothing is going to sway you. There is something about the extreme unlikelihood of that, coupled with the certainty and incorrigibility of the belief that exemplifies what it is to be human (in a strangely endearing way).

 

 

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Coil
47 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Animals are not persons.


Animals also have an individuality and  developed psychic consciousness in domestic animals even more than in some people.
We are simply confused by the fact that animals do not have a human mind, therefore we belittle them as individual beings.
In my opinion, animals simply possess the mind of the child, so if  teach them, they can do what they have been taught, and if not, they will follow their own nature.
Animals also have a soul, therefore these are just creatures preceding our mind but possessing an animal mind.

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The difference between animals and persons is that persons are the sons of God.

This is understood in the sense that only from the human stage of the mind can one know God, assimilate religious books and accept faith.

But since all beings are descended from God, everyone carries God's spirit in themselves.

Spoiler

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Coil
Spoiler

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Will do
2 minutes ago, Coil said:

Animals also have an individuality and developed psychic consciousness in domestic animals even more than in some people.

 

This is absolutely true. 

But even in these cases, animals are never persons.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Coil said:

This is understood in the sense that only from the human stage of the mind can one know God, assimilate religious books and accept faith.

But since all beings are descended from God, everyone carries God's spirit in themselves.

 

This is also absolutely true. 

But all beings are not necessarily persons, the sons of God. 

 

 

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Coil
3 minutes ago, Will Due said:

But all beings are not necessarily persons, the sons of God.

 
Well, of course, we can’t say that animals are personalities because the concept of personality is somehow connected with the human mind, abilities and society.
 
I read one book and it said that when two spiritual people were meditating in a room, the cat next to them also fell into a kind of trance. So animals can also join in something. And Christ complained that wild animals have more faith than people because they obeyed him.
 

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Horta
1 hour ago, Will Due said:

The difference between animals and persons is that persons are the sons of God. 

A sentiment that has been of great detriment to the many other species on our planet (well the ones that are left). In the greater scheme of things we are simply the latest flavour of evolution, we are "apes with an intellect".

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Will do
21 minutes ago, Horta said:

Yes, but "sanity" is a bit of a misnomer

 

Thank you for demonstrating how effective free will choice is. 

Since you've chosen to express your free will choice of what sanity is to you, with us. :)

 

 

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Horta
2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Thank you for demonstrating how effective free will choice is. 

Since you've chosen to express your free will choice of what sanity is to you, with us. :)

 

 

Give it up Will.

I enjoy the topic and anything to do with the mind more than most, but it's even starting to grow old with me. lol.

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Will do
1 minute ago, Horta said:

we are "apes with an intellect".

 

Ladies and gentlemen, another demonstration of free will choice at work.

Free will choice, by a person.

A person who's a son of God. :D

 

Isn't it wonderful?

 

 

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Horta
Just now, Will Due said:

 

Ladies and gentlemen, another demonstration of free will choice at work.

Free will choice, by a person.

A person who's a son of God. :D

 

Isn't it wonderful?

 

 

Well, of course...Who couldn't be convinced by that.

Yes, it's wonderful being god's son Will. Yet eerily similar to the feeling that Santa is real. :rolleyes:

 

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Will do
15 minutes ago, Horta said:

Yes, it's wonderful being god's son Will.

 

:tu:

 

Now go spread your gifts around. 

You beautiful thing you. :D

 

 

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Coil
2 hours ago, Will Due said:

Have you considered that certain forms of mental illness are the result of persisting in making the wrong free will choices?

In the Harry Potter film, Dumbledore tells him that a person is determined not by the qualities inherent in him, but by his choice.

 

Edited by Coil

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Horta
7 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

:tu:

 

Now go spread your gifts around. 

You beautiful thing you. :D

 

 

:lol:.

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