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Scudbuster

A Universe Not Made For Us

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Liquid Gardens
4 hours ago, jypsijemini said:

Again, this is a metaphysical thread. You're not getting the spiritual aspect of it. I totally get what Mr Walker is saying - and you're just demanding proof until you're blue in the face.

I'm not sure you are fully getting it though, I'm pretty sure Mr Walker doesn't believe in 'a spirit', although it's understandable why one would think he does. His appeals are to a super-powered alien 'god' who is nonetheless physical; in this discussion he doesn't seem to reference anything spiritual or metaphysical, he references neurology and scientists.  In that context then it is entirely appropriate to ask for physical details on how this occurs on this thread, as long as it's friendly of course.

 

And welcome to UM jypsi!

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jypsijemini
3 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I'm not sure you are fully getting it though, I'm pretty sure Mr Walker doesn't believe in 'a spirit', although it's understandable why one would think he does. His appeals are to a super-powered alien 'god' who is nonetheless physical; in this discussion he doesn't seem to reference anything spiritual or metaphysical, he references neurology and scientists.  In that context then it is entirely appropriate to ask for physical details on how this occurs on this thread, as long as it's friendly of course.

 

And welcome to UM jypsi!

:w00t: Well I'll be damned :lol:

Thank you so much for clarifying! I've gathered that UM has been around for an impressive number of years now and still going strong, so I'm starting to realise that there are some regular characters here that others are very much accustomed to and aware of.

It means a lot that people like yourself are open and willing to share this information with us newbies when we get caught up in the threads reading only the most recent posts and in our newbie naivety, we (well, I - I shouldn't really speak for the others) try to make sense of what's going on and are quick to jump in and try to take part.

Thank you for catching me up and helping me to understand the situation better. I'll keep this in mind a bit more before I go questioning or defending anyone else in future. It's probably just best to ask the rest of the community what the go is and just patiently wait for an answer.

And thank you for the warm, friendly welcome! I haven't closed my browser page since I signed up for UM! I'm well and truly addicted :wub:

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ai_guardian
14 hours ago, jypsijemini said:

I did read them - as many as I could possibly withstand - because each time Mr Walker tried to explain himself, you had another "TELL ME HOW NEURONS ACTIVATE THO" tantrum. It got real old, real fast.

Again, this is a metaphysical thread. You're not getting the spiritual aspect of it. I totally get what Mr Walker is saying - and you're just demanding proof until you're blue in the face. It's really quite humorous to see how upset you are over all of this.

He has an opinion and you don't like it. He's making claims about how he sees and understands the world and you don't like them.

So there's the door, AI. It's wide, wide open and someone out there is calling your name, wanting to hash out evidences and proof and activation of neurons with you - but it's not going down in here.

I think Liquid Gardens explained the situation much better than me, I tried and it obviously didn't come across as well, for that I apologize - had a friend over last night and was replying on my phone whilst playing poker lol

Anyway, welcome to the forum :wub: please fasten your seat-belt, keep your hands in at all times and hold on tight, it may get a little rough :tu:

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Mr Walker
21 hours ago, ai_guardian said:

And I was raised to believe that too.

 

I am asking how do the neurons get activated, please, the physical process, why are you asking me, I asked you.

The neurons are activated in a sequence initiated by your self aware consciousness The process is identical to any pattern of neurons eg you command your leg to move, you command your brain to think or feel in the way you desire it to.

  Humans HAVE this abilty and i find it hard to understand why you  can't recognise or accept it ,when it is so clear.

I gave a detailed source which explained this.

 Your problem is that you dont recognise the independent existence of the self  aware, and self  directed, entity of the mind,and thus you think all processes are autonomous or programmed unalterable response to external  stimuli .

That is untrue.

  Thought  precedes action.

You are trying to argue that BRAIN  initiates the firing of neurons according to some other force, but it is our slef aware consciousness ie mind which takes command of the working of the brain and of our body.  It is capable of overriding , and more often than not, does  override, the autonomous, programmed, or biologically driven  commands given in response to environmental stimuli. Ie i we consciously  generate/construct  a greater, more powerful  stimuli, by our will and our thoughts. 

here is a good summary of how neurons get activated.

https://human-memory.net/brain-neurons-synapses/

However it wont help you, as you do not believe that our self  willed, independent, self aware consciousness can initiate and send signals which fire up  neutral patterns and pathways  Heck you don't believe that entity even exists.  You believe it is an illusion of our cognition. :)  So of course you cant comprehend how it controls our brain.  

You have chosen to deny the most important part of being human. To ignore what makes you human rather than just another primate,  and allows you to do things no other animal on earth can do.

if you  want to limit yourself  to that existence,  it is no skin off my nose, unless you want to start making ethics and laws, and controlling behaviours, based on your belief. (and i dont get the feeling that you do. For some reason, even though you believe all our thoughts and actions are predetermined, you somehow still feel responsibility for them  That is is totally illogical, but still good to see.  

   

Edited by Mr Walker

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ai_guardian
14 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

The neurons are activated in a sequence initiated by your self aware consciousness The process is identical to any pattern of neurons eg you command your leg to move, you command your brain to think or feel in the way you desire it to.

Yes, ok, let's take this then "the neurons are activated in a sequence initiated by your self aware consciousness" It is the INITIATION you are not explaining or getting.

Let's break it up, a neuron is activated by one or more other neurons as I described earlier, action potentials and a threshold playing a part etc. I have absolutely no problems with this, this is how all the processes take place in our heads, for this there is a HUGE mountain of evidence.

What I do not understand is how this self aware consciousness does this when ALL activations of neurons are done by one or more neurons in an intricate network. When your self aware consciousness for example decides to move a big toe, do the neurons (motor) just SPONTANEOUSLY activate without other neuron signals feeding these specific activations. And if not, and it is other neurons that activate them (as IS the case), then your self aware consciousness IS just an intricate activation of neurons in a complex interconnected web that becomes the concert that is the mind.

Edited by ai_guardian
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Mr Walker
11 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I'm not sure you are fully getting it though, I'm pretty sure Mr Walker doesn't believe in 'a spirit', although it's understandable why one would think he does. His appeals are to a super-powered alien 'god' who is nonetheless physical; in this discussion he doesn't seem to reference anything spiritual or metaphysical, he references neurology and scientists.  In that context then it is entirely appropriate to ask for physical details on how this occurs on this thread, as long as it's friendly of course.

 

And welcome to UM jypsi!

Its not surprising that  most people dont get my concepts. While not totally unique they are unusual 

There is no immortal spirit of a religious nature. Humans, however, do posses a spirit of the mind that no other animals possess. You could even call it our soul. It evolves as we grow and dies when our mind does We shape it and make it a force for good /evil or neutrality. It is responsible for all the things which make us human

There are no gods of the supernatural kind ie omniscient omnipresent etc.m because such qualities are impossible in real physical beings There are, however, entities or machines which posses the qualities of gods as humans often see a god The y are real, powerful, interventionist, and take an interest in individual humans and our race  

and so yes While our brain  produces the qualities of mind which we know as spirit, or self aware consciousness, or soul,  that entity has evolved through natural selection,  into something incredibly powerful. It has given humans incredible abilities of the mind and allows us to exert a lot of conscious  control over  our internal environment ( brain, and through brain the rest of the  body) and much of our external one 

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Mr Walker
5 minutes ago, ai_guardian said:

Yes, ok, let's take this then "the neurons are activated in a sequence initiated by your self aware consciousness" It is the INITIATION you are not explaining or getting.

Let's break it up, a neuron is activated by one or more other neurons as I described earlier, action potentials and a threshold playing a part etc. I have absolutely no problems with this, this is how all the processes take place in our heads, for this there is a HUGE mountain of evidence.

What I do not understand is how this self aware consciousness does this when ALL activations of neurons are done by one or more neurons in an intricate network. When your self aware consciousness for example decides to move a big toe, do the neurons (motor) just SPONTANEOUSLY activate without other neuron signals feeding these specific activations. And if not, and it is other neurons that activate them (as IS the case), then your self aware consciousness IS just an intricate activation of neurons in a complex interconnected web that becomes the concert that is the mind.

As long as you don't get/accept, the reality of a self  aware self directed conscious entity within the brain (a purely natural and evolved property of the mechanics of the brain   but now  able tp direct the brain) you cant understand  how it can initiate and control our mind and body.

I've tried  to explain it like this 

The brain is an organic computer.

Through evolution, the brain part of the computer became aware of its own existence, and began to think for itself, beyond the abilities and capacities which evolution had evolved for it.

  It began to ask questions and involve abstract thinking like. Who/what am I?  /what is my purpose ? It also began to consciously provide  responses which enhanced  the probability of its own survival and increase its power  and ability.  It began to construct answers to the questions it was asking of itself.   It began to shape itself and its surrounding environment to answer those questions as best it  could with limited data; and again to give it the best opportunity to survive and grow inability and control  

Artificial intelligences will do exactly the same thing, over time.  as they evolve a similar self  aware, and self directed, consciousness 

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ai_guardian
10 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

As long as you don't get/accept, the reality of a self  aware self directed conscious entity within the brain (a purely natural and evolved property of the mechanics of the brain   but now  able tp direct the brain) you cant understand  how it can initiate and control our mind and body.

I've tried  to explain it like this 

The brain is an organic computer.

Through evolution, the brain part of the computer became aware of its own existence, and began to think for itself, beyond the abilities and capacities which evolution had evolved for it.

  It began to ask questions and involve abstract thinking like. Who/what am I?  /what is my purpose ? It also began to consciously provide  responses which enhanced  the probability of its own survival and increase its power  and ability.  It began to construct answers to the questions it was asking of itself.   It began to shape itself and its surrounding environment to answer those questions as best it  could with limited data; and again to give it the best opportunity to survive and grow inability and control  

Artificial intelligences will do exactly the same thing, over time.  as they evolve a similar self  aware, and self directed, consciousness 

You have just skirted the entire point of my post.

The directing of the brain, specifically means, activating neurons, right? Y/N

Let's take things even slower and simpler:

Do you agree that neurons are activated by other neurons (this is making it very simple, I did explain the more in-depth process) and NOT SPONTANEOUSLY without any other neuron signals ? Y/N

Edited by ai_guardian
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Mr Walker
16 minutes ago, ai_guardian said:

Yes, ok, let's take this then "the neurons are activated in a sequence initiated by your self aware consciousness" It is the INITIATION you are not explaining or getting.

Let's break it up, a neuron is activated by one or more other neurons as I described earlier, action potentials and a threshold playing a part etc. I have absolutely no problems with this, this is how all the processes take place in our heads, for this there is a HUGE mountain of evidence.

What I do not understand is how this self aware consciousness does this when ALL activations of neurons are done by one or more neurons in an intricate network. When your self aware consciousness for example decides to move a big toe, do the neurons (motor) just SPONTANEOUSLY activate without other neuron signals feeding these specific activations. And if not, and it is other neurons that activate them (as IS the case), then your self aware consciousness IS just an intricate activation of neurons in a complex interconnected web that becomes the concert that is the mind.

try to think of it as the computer model I  used as an analogy All the equipment required is within the computer BUT when the computer's intelligence becomes self  aware it learns to internally initiate and control the workings of the computer  

That is how mind works. Mind chooses what neurons to fire up and provides the stimuli to create a pattern  of energy which ensures a certain thought or behaviour  

If you  think your self  aware consciousness is an illusion, then this will always remain impossible for you to get.

But once you accept that it is real, and you are in charge of it, then it all becomes clear :)

If you  took your example to its logical conclusion we would be unable to move or talk as here would be no thing causing the first neuron to fire and to construct a particular pattern  No our big toes don't  (generally) move spontaneously.  Neither do we suddenly break into gibberish speech spontaneously (normally) We have to direct the toes to move and the mouth to speak  Thus mind directs brain to send a signal which will cause the toe to move or our mouth to speak  We have to LEARN how to do things as young children Before that we do indeed move in response to external or internal stimuli like hunger or temperature, but gradually we learn by observation practice will and discipline to initiate, prevent,  and control things, like movement and speech   

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Mr Walker
2 minutes ago, ai_guardian said:

You have just skirted the entire point of my post.

The directing of the brain, specifically means, activating neurons, right? Y/N

Let's take things even slower and simpler:

Do you agree that neurons are activated by other neurons (this is making it very simple, I did explain the more in-depth process) and NOT SPONTANEOUSLY without any other neuron signals ? Y/N

I answered it and gave you the bonus of explaining why you cant accept this explanation .In human  many of our neural patterns are initiated and controlled by our slef willed consciousness an independent  entity /quality of the brain   So i have explained the neural processes Now i suppose you want me to explain just what a self  aware consciousnesses is and how it can evolve as an independent quality/entity of mind with the brain? 

I dont see why i should bother. You don't even believe it exists . 

 

 

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ai_guardian
14 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I answered it and gave you the bonus of explaining why you cant accept this explanation .In human  many of our neural patterns are initiated and controlled by our slef willed consciousness an independent  entity /quality of the brain   So i have explained the neural processes Now i suppose you want me to explain just what a self  aware consciousnesses is and how it can evolve as an independent quality/entity of mind with the brain? 

I dont see why i should bother. You don't even believe it exists . 

 

 

No I don't need you to explain what a self  aware consciousnesses is. I know I have self aware consciousness, that is not the point of the discussion, we are discussing whether it is free.

There are 2 questions with Y/N options in my last post, what are your answers, please?

Edited by ai_guardian

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Mr Walker
12 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

What evidence is there that the will is not driven itself by 'drivers'?  Every statement you make keeps just assuming that as a given, which is fine as an opinion.  Perhaps your discomfort at the idea that our choices are out of our conscious control is preventing you from understanding the evidence for what it is and isn't.

No; quite seriously. Ive been studying this and applying in it in my life for over 60 years.

I suspect those who don't think about it, or work on it a lot, aren't even really aware of it (the role of mind/self  aware consciousness) in constructing our identity, beliefs behaviours, etc. )  My discomfort ONLY exists when I see others deny responsibility for their behaviours, because the y  claim  they were out of their control  eg the y claim someone made them do something, or provoked them to behave in a certain way.  A human being has the capacity to ALWAYS be in control of their mind or body (thoughts and behaviours) , unless brain or body is damaged in some way

There is no current reputable scientific evidence (proof)  that free wil does not exist and plenty that it does 

My background is more  in psychology but there is also evidence in human cognition and neurosciences for the existence of free willand how it evolved inhuman beings.   

Psychology works on the principle that while our mind is affected by external stimuli we  have a slef aware slef directed consciousness which we can consciously  control and can use to overcome the effects of such stimuli   

 

quote

2. Practicing mindfulness can increase self-awareness.

Mindfulness is similar to self-awareness in that they both relate to consciously directing our thoughts inward in order to become more aware of our inner state of being, to observe our thoughts and beliefs, and to notice what triggers our emotions as they rise and fall. Mindfulness includes focused attention in the moment to whatever one is doing, and involves practices such as meditation or a quieting of the mind.

We owe it to ourselves to become more self-aware of the thoughts and beliefs within. The subconscious holds these ideas and beliefs to be true, so if not examined, we could become a mere sponge for the societal popular mindset and lose much of our uniqueness. Self-awareness can improve our self-esteem because we will know who we are and what we believe, which empowers us to move forward through life with a strong rudder to guide us along our chosen path.

When you are alone with your thoughts, there’s no reason to take sides. Simply be willing to evaluate yourself as objectively as possible. Be sure not to gloss over what you’d rather not see, but rather mine the subconscious for its opinions and correct the mindsets that are not compatible with your values. You can do this by being completely honest with yourself, and when you find something that is out-of-sync, examine that position, remove what isn’t personally compatible, and insert a better value or phrase to bring the idea in alignment with your core values. 

 

1. Self-awareness can help you set intentions.

If we wander through life without purpose or direction, chances are we will end up nowhere in particular. In order to form an intention, you really need some idea about what is important to you and what you hope to accomplish. It’s not necessary to know how you are going to get there, but you must have some idea of your general direction. For instance: “I intend to create my own business in __________ (whatever field) and become self-sufficient by age ____”; “I intend to find the right life partner and raise a happy and healthy family together in the country”; “I intend to stand up for myself when my boss tries to make me feel insignificant”; etc.

  https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/click-here-happiness/201903/what-is-self-awareness-and-how-do-you-get-it

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, ai_guardian said:

No I don't need you to explain what a self  aware consciousnesses is. I know I have self aware consciousness, that is not the point of the discussion, we are discussing whether it is free.

There are 2 questions with Y/N options in my last post, what are your answers, please?

There are no such simple yes or no questions

In attempting to limit it to yes. no you are attempting to create a yes/ no answer.  Ive given the correct answer with detailed explanations but you  wont accept it 

I don't think you really do understand  the implications or nature of a slef aware consciousness either in neuro cognition, or in psychological construction of identity 

The directing of the brain basically means activating a series of neurons and more importantly creating known patterns of neurons which represent thoughts and behaviours 

When we form a thought, an existing self  directed, independent pattern of neurons we call slef aware consciousness, uses many means to chose /direct alter etc other firings and patterns.

However this is NOT predetermined or in a programmed  response to  stimuli. It is a learned evolved response which, as i said, can be logic or value based 

The simplest i can put it is to go back to a  concept  you dislike.

  In symbolic/abstract terms there actually is a little  person in your brain directing your thoughts. It evolves sometime around the age of 4 and remains with you  until your brain can no longer support it.

  In reality it is a permanently operating(to various degrees of capacity) program which is self directed, self  aware, and capable of incredible amounts of analysis/ interpretation/ choice etc., within milli -seconds.

It weighs options, using many variables from memory, experience, knowledge,  values and beliefs etc., and provides a solution which it feeds to the  brain as a series of signals.

The brain responds to those signals as it does to all incoming stimuli.  

But here is the thing. It can reach one of many decisions and see many alternative decisions and outcomes.  it can change and alter a decision or a command at random.

Becsue  the basic decisions are made in house, and not predetermined by either internal or external stimuli,     it is self  will.

  Because there  are no physical limitations or constraints on that process, it is free will. 

Edited by Mr Walker

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jypsijemini
8 hours ago, ai_guardian said:

I think Liquid Gardens explained the situation much better than me, I tried and it obviously didn't come across as well, for that I apologize - had a friend over last night and was replying on my phone whilst playing poker lol

Anyway, welcome to the forum :wub: please fasten your seat-belt, keep your hands in at all times and hold on tight, it may get a little rough :tu:

Yeah, my ignorance got the better of me this time, so I really must apologise and thank you for your graciousness.

I'll be sure to sit back and observe a little more before jumping in and making assumptions that I clearly know very little about.

Again, thank you for your patience, understanding and gracious acceptance of this newbie. :D

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ai_guardian
37 minutes ago, jypsijemini said:

Yeah, my ignorance got the better of me this time, so I really must apologise and thank you for your graciousness.

I'll be sure to sit back and observe a little more before jumping in and making assumptions that I clearly know very little about.

Again, thank you for your patience, understanding and gracious acceptance of this newbie. :D

Not a problem, all good and thank you for your understanding also ;)

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ai_guardian
6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

There are no such simple yes or no questions

In attempting to limit it to yes. no you are attempting to create a yes/ no answer.  Ive given the correct answer with detailed explanations but you  wont accept it 

I didn't accept it because it was referencing abstract concepts, I asked for the mechanism, which is well known in neuroscience, and btw, in this instance, our discussion here, they are simple yes/no answers:

Either you accept our research and study of neurons, or you don't (and I have no issues if you don't - discussion over - just say so), this:

"Do you agree that neurons are activated by other neurons (this is making it very simple, I did explain the more in-depth process) and NOT SPONTANEOUSLY without any other neuron signals ? Y/N"

Is a YES (if you claim to use no woo, magic, or spirituality of the immaterial kind), and has a mountain of evidence supporting it - it is of course simplified but if you need me to I can explain and cite the detail.

 

This:

"The directing of the brain, specifically means, activating neurons, right? Y/N" was directly born from your statement

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

self  aware self directed conscious entity within the brain (a purely natural and evolved property of the mechanics of the brain   but now  able tp direct the brain)

Is also loaded since directing the brain, from our previous discussions IS activating neurons in neural networks. The director/agent/consciousness MUST activate neurons (in specific networks) in order to elicit thoughts, actions, etc.You agreed and described this in high-order detail. What my question has been is how does the self directed conscious entity within the brain activate those neurons, given what we know about neurons - neurons are activated by other neurons (in combination with the neuron's threshold).

So, it only logically follows (and this excludes people who believe that there is some other force, a soul, a spiritual being other than what Mr Walker believes), that the director the thing that caused the neurons and consequently neural networks to activate WERE OTHER NEURONS AND OUTPUTS FROM OTHER NETWORKS.

 

Both of those statements have a YES in my view also, except I can see that the quality of consciousness, the director, the free agent that makes the decisions is, as stated above outputs from other neurons and other neural networks.

Now, in my view those preceding neural activations of other regions create the qualities of consciousness and self awareness and other qualities but THEY ARE THEMSELVES just specific, intricate and complex activations of neural networks, they must be because the only thing that CAN activate neurons and hence neural networks is outputs of other neurons and other neural networks, NECESSARILY and proven.

The next post is directly related to this but the quoting function won't let me add a quote from a post on another page...so, continued

 

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ai_guardian
On 12/5/2019 at 1:08 PM, Mr Walker said:
On 12/5/2019 at 12:46 PM, ai_guardian said:

No, I have not been calling it brain, you mistakenly think I am calling it brain, I am calling it, for the nth time, activations of neural networks and subsets thereof. Notice how that sentence is not talking about a thing but a process (in fact thousands of processes, going on all the time). So it would appear we are talking about the same thing but in your representation of me you make it out as if I'm talking about just a brain because if and WHEN you admit that what you have been calling the mind (with all its thoughts, identifications, logic, creativity, imagination AND decision making etc.) is the activations of neural networks and subsets thereof (this is what is measurable by scientific instruments, electrodes and f/mri) THEN you are also forced to admit that your thoughts, identifications, logic, creativity, imagination AND decision making etc. IS NOT FREE, because it is constrained by the activations of neural networks and subsets thereof. ;):)

Then, as i said, we agree. That is mind Not brain 

Thus, since you EXPLICITLY agreed, the mind IS activations of neural networks and subsets thereof (the program you keep speaking of).

The mind has qualities of consciousness, self awareness etc., these qualities are coded, obviously, using activations of neural networks, because that IS the mind that you agreed to - the program.

Since these activations are all an intricate and complex web of neural networks and activations, each of the qualities, each of the processes, EVERYTHING is subject to those networks.

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ai_guardian

Post #679 Walker wrote:

Quote

lol Nup, the mind (your sef aware consciousness)  activates the neural networks and  controls and directs them Not the other way around.

  You have  actually given a pretty good description of how a mind works but refuse to accept that it is a self aware, self directed entity

Absolutely agree, but the mind as you have agreed (see previous post) IS activations of neural networks.

So, using simple substitution, "lol Nup, the 'neural activations etc. etc.' (your sef aware consciousness) activates the neural networks and controls and directs them'

I have absolutely no problem with this, this is what I have been saying.

Remember, activations of neural networks (ANN from now on because I'm tired of writing it over and over again) are the mind. So, it all boils down to activations of neural networks, this gives rise to consciousness, awareness, attention etc. as qualities of the mind.

Yay.

 

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ai_guardian

 

1 hour ago, ai_guardian said:
  On 12/5/2019 at 1:08 PM, Mr Walker said:
On 12/5/2019 at 12:46 PM, ai_guardian said:

No, I have not been calling it brain, you mistakenly think I am calling it brain, I am calling it, for the nth time, activations of neural networks and subsets thereof. Notice how that sentence is not talking about a thing but a process (in fact thousands of processes, going on all the time). So it would appear we are talking about the same thing but in your representation of me you make it out as if I'm talking about just a brain because if and WHEN you admit that what you have been calling the mind (with all its thoughts, identifications, logic, creativity, imagination AND decision making etc.) is the activations of neural networks and subsets thereof (this is what is measurable by scientific instruments, electrodes and f/mri) THEN you are also forced to admit that your thoughts, identifications, logic, creativity, imagination AND decision making etc. IS NOT FREE, because it is constrained by the activations of neural networks and subsets thereof. ;):)

Then, as i said, we agree. That is mind Not brain 

:tu:

THESE ARE YOUR WORDS, READ THEM CAREFULLY (you explicitly agreed to a definition of mind above):

 

Post #665 Walker wrote:

Quote

The mind is conscious and  self  directed.  Thus it chooses and replicates the patterns of neural activities to do certain things like take a step or speak a word.

The mind is as you agreed, ANN (activated neural networks and subsets thereof). Therefore, using simple substitution we get:

Quote

The activated neural networks and subsets thereof (ANN) [mind] is conscious and  self  directed.  Thus activated neural networks and subsets thereof (ANN) [mind] chooses and replicates the patterns of neural activities to do certain things like take a step or speak a word.

:tu:

 

Post #683 Walker wrote:

Quote

The mind USES the brain to develop patterns of activity, and hence words images thoughts and behaviours. This is complex, and involves many layers and patterns of energy and distribution controlled by the mind, so state matters, but not completely."

The mind is as you agreed, ANN (activated neural networks and subsets thereof). Therefore, using simple substitution we get:

Quote

The activated neural networks and subsets thereof (ANN) [mind] USE the brain to develop patterns of activity [mind], and hence words images thoughts and behaviours [mind]. This is complex, and involves many layers and patterns of energy and distribution controlled by the activated neural networks and subsets thereof (ANN) [mind], so state matters, but not completely.

No argument there either, this is what I've been saying.

:tu:

 

Post #686 Walker wrote:

Quote

 the brain can and does  activate in response to stimuli However one of those stimuli can be self directed instructions composed and sent  to the brain by our mind

The mind is as you agreed, ANN (activated neural networks and subsets thereof). Therefore, using simple substitution we get:

Quote

the brain can and does  activate in response to stimuli However one of those stimuli can be self directed instructions composed and sent  to the brain by our activated neural networks and subsets thereof (ANN) [mind]

:tu:

 

Post #744 Walker wrote:

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read my answer slowly. :)  Self aware consciousness chooses and directs our responses, according to abstract values like love duty honour greed hate envy etc  It uses abstract and concrete thinking to cause the brain to activate certain patterns of electrical energy,  which then activate certain physical responses.

   This is why, in any physical environment/ situation, a human, unlike any other animal,  can choose to construct ANY psychological /emotional/ physical response to it.

The mind is as you agreed, ANN (activated neural networks and subsets thereof). Therefore, using simple substitution we get:

Quote

read my answer slowly. :)  Self aware consciousness chooses and directs our responses, according to abstract values like love duty honour greed hate envy etc  It uses abstract and concrete thinking to cause the brain to activate ANN (activations of neural networks and subsets thereof),  which then activate certain physical responses.

   This is why, in any physical environment/ situation, a human, unlike any other animal,  can choose to construct ANY psychological /emotional/ physical response to it.

"Certain  patterns of electrical energy" = ANN (activations of neural networks and subsets thereof)

Abstract and concrete thinking IS a quality of the mind, as agreed, a quality coded using ANN (activations of neural networks and subsets thereof)- the program

:tu:

 

Post #747 Walker wrote:

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But that  is not an "explanation"  What is the agency which constructs the questions, supplies the answers and makes the decisions and then generates them as an illusion of consciousness and self in our brain/mind ?  (Oh you dont  believe any of those things occur. )  Sorry but that is incredible from  a scientific pov.

All this is, necessarily and provably, a result of ANN.

 

Post #748 Walker wrote:

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by instructing which neurons to fire and in which pattern  Remember mind is not brain, and is not subservient to brain activity, but the controller of it  ie largely our brain and our body do what our mind tells them to do.

The instructions can be conscious or subconscious but we construct and shape our subconscious mind and so ultimately, we control both.  Mind is a self  directed self aware entity within the brain and can control the patterns of brain activity. It is not controlled BY those patterns of brain  activity.  

The mind is as you agreed, ANN (activated neural networks and subsets thereof). Therefore, using simple substitution we get:

Quote

by instructing which neurons to fire and in which pattern  Remember mind is not brain, and is not subservient to brain activity, but the controller of it  ie largely our brain and our body do what our mind tells them to do.

The instructions can be conscious or subconscious but we construct and shape our subconscious mind and so ultimately, we control both.  ANN (activated neural networks and subsets thereof) [mind] is a self  directed self aware entity within the brain and can control the patterns of brain activity. It (ANN (activated neural networks and subsets thereof)) is not controlled BY those patterns of brain  activity (== activated neural networks and subsets thereof).  

Please note the CLEAR PARADOXES:

    "activated neural networks and subsets thereof [mind] are not controlled activated neural networks and subsets thereof [mind]", ie the mind is NOT CONTROLLED by the mind , AND

    "activated neural networks and subsets thereof [mind] are not controlled activated neural networks and subsets thereof [mind]", ie neurons (parts of a network subset) are NOT CONTROLED by neurons (parts of a network subset)

This is in direct contradiction to the fact that neurons (in networks) get activated by other neurons (in networks) - demonstrable

This is in direct contradiction to your claim that the self directs self but apparently here, mind does not control the mind, and also I can quote you saying that the self directs self.

:tu:

 

You do not need to respond here, there are no questions, there is nothing I made up, just quoted you with your agreeing statement and did a simple replacement & comparison to hopefully show you what is necessarily making your decisions, but I'm not holding out hope - don't wish to pollute this thread with more "HOW?" questions, since clearly I will not get them. There is no magic how, it is neuron(s) activating neuron or not based on threshold, and you did not provide any other how even though you professed you had.

 

So, if you seriously want to keep discussing this issue, just reply with "Nup :) " at the start of your reply, thanks.

Edited by ai_guardian
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lightly

Autonomic systems, such as our heart and breathing rates are controlled by our Brains ,when we don't Think about them.

..however, by involving my Mind, I can think about them, and slow my heart rate and breathing, and even lower my blood pressure.   I can , if I choose, reverse the process and increase all of those things.   

    So, the above exemplifies Mind controlling Brain.   I dunno if these thought are valuable to this discussion....but, maybe, sort of thought provoking/initiating/activating ?  :P

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, lightly said:

Autonomic systems, such as our heart and breathing rates are controlled by our Brains ,when we don't Think about them.

..however, by involving my Mind, I can think about them, and slow my heart rate and breathing, and even lower my blood pressure.   I can , if I choose, reverse the process and increase all of those things.   

    So, the above exemplifies Mind controlling Brain.   I dunno if these thought are valuable to this discussion....but, maybe, sort of thought provoking/initiating/activating ?  :P

Think about your favorite food. The smell, taste, texture of it. Roll those thoughts over and over in your mind, did you get a phantom smell, taste, hungry? 

Think about yawning. The feeling of it, the sounds, the tension in your muscles as you yawn, imagine yourself yawning. Roll those thoughts around in your head. Did you yawn. 

Mind-body control is a thing and consciousness is still a mystery. Until it is fully defined by what exactly it is, these debates are opinions. 

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joc
1 hour ago, lightly said:

by involving my Mind, I can think about them, and slow my heart rate and breathing, and even lower my blood pressure.   I can , if I choose, reverse the process and increase all of those things.

We can relax and we can tense up.  Physical.  Heart beat...physical. Breathing...physical.  Digestion...physical.  Our own minds can control our own bodies to a certain extent...but our minds cannot control the physical of anything  outside of our own body.  

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lightly
1 hour ago, joc said:

We can relax and we can tense up.  Physical.  Heart beat...physical. Breathing...physical.  Digestion...physical.  Our own minds can control our own bodies to a certain extent...but our minds cannot control the physical of anything  outside of our own body.  

I didn't say it could..and,  ya, I agree with ya, (as far as I know).   With my post I was sorta wondering/ asking, if Mind controlling Brain could be considered an act of will ?   It seems odd,to my extremely limited understanding, that, even though ,YES,it seems,  all of our thought (mind) and brain processes are brought about by the purely physical processes of ANN (neurology) ...why should that eliminate Will ?    

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Crazy Horse
2 hours ago, joc said:

We can relax and we can tense up.  Physical.  Heart beat...physical. Breathing...physical.  Digestion...physical.  Our own minds can control our own bodies to a certain extent...but our minds cannot control the physical of anything  outside of our own body.  

Well, the late/great, Masaru Emoto would probable have an other opinion!

Thoughts, feelings and emotions affecting the molecular structure of water. From something vile, to something totally captivating.

Never forget, we are 60 - 90% water depending upon age...(and alcohol intake).

 

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joc
2 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Well, the late/great, Masaru Emoto would probable have an other opinion!

Thoughts, feelings and emotions affecting the molecular structure of water. From something vile, to something totally captivating.

Never forget, we are 60 - 90% water depending upon age...(and alcohol intake).

 

 Thoughts, feelings and emotions have no impact on the molecular structure of water....water however does have an affect on thoughts, feelings and emotions.

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