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Scudbuster

A Universe Not Made For Us

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Habitat

Certainly predestined to die !

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Piney
17 minutes ago, Will Due said:

In case you're wondering (you probably aren't) this is what the UB says, amongst other things, about predestination:

That's ripped right from Calvin too. 

The only mainstream sect of Christianity that still believes it are the Presbyterians.  Even the Catholics now reject it, while still calling Pelagius, the theologian who preached it, a heretic. 

A matter of fact the Catholic term for it is the "Pelagian Heresy". :lol: 

Edited by Piney
**** Atlantis
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Will Due

 

Predestination is just a preliminary plan that is always revised and updated as we go. That's how I see it anyways. It's just a starting point. 

 

 

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Piney
1 minute ago, Will Due said:

Predestination is just a preliminary plan that is always revised and updated as we go. That's how I see it anyways. It's just a starting point. 

I'll stick with my "random" Buddhism. ;)

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Coil
6 hours ago, Will Due said:

All of them.

But eternity is simply the everlasting now. 

They're opposite because eternity goes on forever while time ends.

Another thing that makes them opposite is that time has a beginning while the eternal past is in the eternal now.

Or something like that. :passifier:

 

Here is a vision of a spiritual person, what is Time, Timeless, Absolute:

Spoiler

 

Timeless and Time are the same Eternity or the same Eternal in a dual status; they represent the twofold status of being and consciousness, one is the eternity of an immovable status, the other is an eternity of movement in the same status.

Therefore, there are no two eternities, one is eternity of status, the other is eternity of movement but there are various statuses or positions adopted by Consciousness in relation to one Eternity.

 The emergence of motion from the Unchangeable is an eternal phenomenon, and only because we cannot comprehend it at that eternally new moment, which is devoid of beginning and end, which is the eternity of the Timeless, only therefore our ideas and perceptions are forced to replace it with a temporary eternity of consistent duration, to which attached ideas of the ever-returning beginning, middle and end.

Every beginning and every end implies something beyond the beginning and the end. The absolute end, the absolute beginning is not only a terminological contradiction, but a contradiction of the essence of things, violence, fiction. Infinity imposes itself on the appearance of the finite through the ineffable self-existence.

Absolute energy outside of action is simply a purely absolute existence. If all forms, qualities, quantities disappeared, this would remain.
They come not in one single form, one single quantity, one single quality, which would be the basis of everything else - for such a basis does not exist - but in something that we cannot define using any of these terms. and there, since they continue to exist, they become something that can no longer be described with the terms corresponding to them in motion.

Therefore, we say that pure existence is the Absolute and is unknowable in itself through our thinking, although we can return to it in a supreme identity that exceeds the terms of knowledge.

We must remember that stability and movement are only our psychological ideas about the Absolute, even as well as identity and multiplicity. The absolute is beyond the limits of stability and movement, as beyond the limits of unity and multiplicity. But the Absolute takes its eternal position in the one and the same and revolves around itself endlessly, incomprehensibly, reliably in motion and multiplicity. The existence of the world is represented by the ecstatic dance of Shiva, infinitely multiplying the body of God: it leaves that white existence exactly where it was and what it always was, is and will be; his only absolute goal is to enjoy the dance.

 As in absolute existence there can be neither nothing, nor a night of unconsciousness, nor incompleteness, it can be said, nor a lack of Strength - because if any of these things were present there, then this existence would not be absolute - just as it is there can be no suffering, no denial of delight.

Even our relative humanity has this experience, expressed in the fact that any dissatisfaction implies a restriction, an obstacle - satisfaction comes with the realization of something held back, with exceeding the limit, with overcoming the obstacle. This is due to the fact that our original being is absolutely in full possession of its infinite and unlimited self-consciousness and self-power; it is self-possession, another name for which is self-delight. And to the extent that the relative touches that self-possession, it moves towards satisfaction, touches delight.

Taken from these chapters of the book:

Chapter 10 The Pure Existent
Chapter 2 Brahman, Purusha, Ishwara, Maya, Prakriti, Shakti
Chapter 11 Delight of Existence: The Problem

https://www.sriaurobindoashram.org/sriaurobindo/downloadpdf.php?id=36

 

 

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psyche101
9 hours ago, Will Due said:

Some things (or a lot of things) are universal aren't they?

But don't you believe in free will? 

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psyche101
8 hours ago, Will Due said:

Predestination is just a preliminary plan that is always revised and updated as we go. That's how I see it anyways. It's just a starting point. 

That's self contradictory. 

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psyche101
5 hours ago, Coil said:

 

Here is a vision of a spiritual person, what is Time, Timeless, Absolute:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Timeless and Time are the same Eternity or the same Eternal in a dual status; they represent the twofold status of being and consciousness, one is the eternity of an immovable status, the other is an eternity of movement in the same status.

Therefore, there are no two eternities, one is eternity of status, the other is eternity of movement but there are various statuses or positions adopted by Consciousness in relation to one Eternity.

 The emergence of motion from the Unchangeable is an eternal phenomenon, and only because we cannot comprehend it at that eternally new moment, which is devoid of beginning and end, which is the eternity of the Timeless, only therefore our ideas and perceptions are forced to replace it with a temporary eternity of consistent duration, to which attached ideas of the ever-returning beginning, middle and end.

Every beginning and every end implies something beyond the beginning and the end. The absolute end, the absolute beginning is not only a terminological contradiction, but a contradiction of the essence of things, violence, fiction. Infinity imposes itself on the appearance of the finite through the ineffable self-existence.

Absolute energy outside of action is simply a purely absolute existence. If all forms, qualities, quantities disappeared, this would remain.
They come not in one single form, one single quantity, one single quality, which would be the basis of everything else - for such a basis does not exist - but in something that we cannot define using any of these terms. and there, since they continue to exist, they become something that can no longer be described with the terms corresponding to them in motion.

Therefore, we say that pure existence is the Absolute and is unknowable in itself through our thinking, although we can return to it in a supreme identity that exceeds the terms of knowledge.

We must remember that stability and movement are only our psychological ideas about the Absolute, even as well as identity and multiplicity. The absolute is beyond the limits of stability and movement, as beyond the limits of unity and multiplicity. But the Absolute takes its eternal position in the one and the same and revolves around itself endlessly, incomprehensibly, reliably in motion and multiplicity. The existence of the world is represented by the ecstatic dance of Shiva, infinitely multiplying the body of God: it leaves that white existence exactly where it was and what it always was, is and will be; his only absolute goal is to enjoy the dance.

 As in absolute existence there can be neither nothing, nor a night of unconsciousness, nor incompleteness, it can be said, nor a lack of Strength - because if any of these things were present there, then this existence would not be absolute - just as it is there can be no suffering, no denial of delight.

Even our relative humanity has this experience, expressed in the fact that any dissatisfaction implies a restriction, an obstacle - satisfaction comes with the realization of something held back, with exceeding the limit, with overcoming the obstacle. This is due to the fact that our original being is absolutely in full possession of its infinite and unlimited self-consciousness and self-power; it is self-possession, another name for which is self-delight. And to the extent that the relative touches that self-possession, it moves towards satisfaction, touches delight.

Taken from these chapters of the book:

Chapter 10 The Pure Existent
Chapter 2 Brahman, Purusha, Ishwara, Maya, Prakriti, Shakti
Chapter 11 Delight of Existence: The Problem

https://www.sriaurobindoashram.org/sriaurobindo/downloadpdf.php?id=36

 

 

A mortgage? 

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Crazy Horse
On 8/15/2019 at 3:44 PM, Essan said:

That is a modern definition of god.  Interesting how the definition constantly changes though ......  Not that long ago he lived on a mountain drinking ambrosia demanding absolute subservience, or else, and occasionally popping down to ravage a young maiden or talk to a lonely goatherd whilst pretending to be a burning bush.   You knew what god was in them days.  Now it's some metaphysical thingie that defies proper explanation.    With luck, next week it'll be me :D 

Everything changes..

As humanity evolves so does our understanding of God. One level of "new insight" becomes the new norm for the next generation.

BTW, yes you are God!!!

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Crazy Horse
On 8/15/2019 at 5:44 PM, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

 

That is your opinion, I asked for scientific evidence.

I think my answer in the previous post is equally usefull here.

If you put an hermetically sealed jar, with nothing in it, no air, no bacteria, no water etc etc, putting it in a safe place, then clime into your handy time machine, fast forward 1 million years, then go and take look at your jar, then there will still be nothing in it, why? Because nothing comes from nothing, everything comes from something.

The fact that we have life, consciousness, matter and energy means that this all came from someplace, I happen to call that someplace, God. Other folk have different ideas and names. 

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Crazy Horse
On 8/15/2019 at 7:32 PM, Piney said:

:blink:  erm...... yeeaaahhh.......

Matter can't be destroyed. It just changes form but there is no "law of physics" that states matter can come from nothing. If that's what you actually meant. :lol:

@Will Due  :lol:  

I think we got our wires crossed?

I said, meant, that nothing can come from nothing, so how did the Big bang give us all this?

I didn't mean that there were any laws stating that matter can come from nothing, in fact, I was suggesting the exact opposite, therefore, giving a little evidence of something I like to call God, no doubt you have a different name, and that's GREAT!!!!!

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Crazy Horse
On 8/17/2019 at 10:06 PM, psyche101 said:

Lawrence Krauss wrote a book on exactly that subject. 

And his conclusion was...……….?

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psyche101
19 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

If you put an hermetically sealed jar, with nothing in it, no air, no bacteria, no water etc etc, putting it in a safe place, then clime into your handy time machine, fast forward 1 million years, then go and take look at your jar, then there will still be nothing in it, why? Because nothing comes from nothing, everything comes from something.

The fact that we have life, consciousness, matter and energy means that this all came from someplace, I happen to call that someplace, God. Other folk have different ideas and names. 

You just stopped to entertain cultural superstitions and traditions where others moved on is all. It's not a different name for the same thing. 

 

12 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

And his conclusion was...……….?

That the universe is a natural formation not a created one. 

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Piney
17 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

I said, meant, that nothing can come from nothing, so how did the Big bang give us all this?

 

Before the Big Bang existed a Singularity. Before that, another Universe in my spiritual tradition. 

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Crazy Horse
2 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

You just stopped to entertain cultural superstitions and traditions where others moved on is all. It's not a different name for the same thing. 

 

That the universe is a natural formation not a created one. 

It has nothing to do with cultural superstitions, just scientific fact. Nothing can come from nothing, life must come from life.

Personally, I can contend that the universe is both natural and created. Like I keep saying, everything comes from something, nothing comes from nothing.

 

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Crazy Horse
2 minutes ago, Piney said:

Before the Big Bang existed a Singularity. Before that, another Universe in my spiritual tradition. 

Thanks, but please give me an idea of a what you mean by Singularity, it could be my idea of God!!

 

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Piney
Just now, Crazy Horse said:

Thanks, but please give me an idea of a what you mean by Singularity, it could be my idea of God!!

 

Natives are pan-theistic. Our "God" is the "Living Universe" who continues to recreate itself throughout eternity. 

Big Bang, Big Collapse, Big Bang, Big Collapse, Big Bang,,,,,,and on and on....

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Crazy Horse
Just now, Piney said:

Natives are pan-theistic. Our "God" is the "Living Universe" who continues to recreate itself throughout eternity. 

Big Bang, Big Collapse, Big Bang, Big Collapse, Big Bang,,,,,,and on and on....

I agree.

God is in everything, and everything is in God.

IMO the universe is a dualistic construct, held within the Mind of God, and that God is above, behind, transcending what we call the universe and cosmos..

God is the Unchanging, Substantial and Real.

Everything else is transitory, in flux and unsubstansive and therefore unreal.

 

 

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Piney
58 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

I agree.

God is in everything, and everything is in God.

IMO the universe is a dualistic construct, held within the Mind of God, and that God is above, behind, transcending what we call the universe and cosmos..

God is the Unchanging, Substantial and Real.

Everything else is transitory, in flux and unsubstansive and therefore unreal.

I don't try to philosophize something nobody truly knows. I just acknowledge I am part of Creation. 

 I don't worship it. Just acknowledge it. Because that would be "self worship". 

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Crazy Horse
2 minutes ago, Piney said:

I don't try to philosophize something nobody truly knows. I just acknowledge I am part of Creation. 

 I don't worship it. Just acknowledge it. Because that would be "self worship". 

To be honest, I don't really worship anything. I have a deep and profound gratitude for something I call God, but its a two way street. I am the author of my life and take responsibility for my actions, and the consequences of my actions.

Everything that ever happened to me has been my doing, and I try to thank God, or my inner divinity for the good, the bad and even the painful experiences I have to go through, for here lies the greatest lessons in life.

 

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Piney
27 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

To be honest, I don't really worship anything. I have a deep and profound gratitude for something I call God, but its a two way street. I am the author of my life and take responsibility for my actions, and the consequences of my actions.

That's the way we NDNs do it. :tu:

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psyche101
13 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

It has nothing to do with cultural superstitions, just scientific fact. Nothing can come from nothing, life must come from life.

That is not scientific fact. What we call nothing is not empty. 

13 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Personally, I can contend that the universe is both natural and created.

That's you personal view. That's a it is. In reality, it's going to be one or the other. 

13 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Like I keep saying, everything comes from something, nothing comes from nothing

Your idea of nothing is not accurate. Abiogensis brings life into existance. That's not nothing and it's not what we define as life either. 

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Mr Walker

first.

Humans are an evolved component of the natural universe. As such, the universe and we, live in a symbiotic natural  relationship

While not designed for us we are almost perfectly adapted to live and prosper  within our small corner of it 

Second

Because we have developed awareness and thus science and technology we are no longer confined to a niche environment like all other animals 

We can live deep below the sea, in extremes  of climate and even in space or on other planets.  Most animals have evolved to do very well in  a specialist environment Humans have evolevd to survive in a generalist environment and this abilty is increased by our science and technology 

Unless we run into a more powerful/ advanced sentient being/race, which restricts our expansion,  we have the abilty first to colonise much of our solar system and before too long colonise other  planets around other stars .

Unless we kill ourselves  destroy our civilizations,  or misuse the resources we have on this planet (and now nearby asteroids)  etc., this is inevitable   The most critical necessary resource is energy. Wwith enough energy almost anything can be achieved.

We have the potential abilty to capture all the output of the energy from  our sun, plus other energy sources in the solar system from the planets   A type 1 civilization captures and uses ALL the available energy on its home planet. Humans are between 100 and 200 years from achieving this,(  almost no time at all in historical terms.)  Carl sagan reckons we are already about 70% of the way to reaching this level 

A level 2 civilisation potentially  captures all the energy output of its star 

This might take between 1000 and 2000 years but, given the rate of scientific progress, it could happen much more quickly 

These may see like long time lines to some, but historically they are not  

I can trace my mothers family back directly 1000 years to the Norman conquest of England.

  It was only  about 500 years ago when Columbus "discovered" America, and 300 years ago when some of my ancestors migrated from Scotland to America 

My family home was occupied by my family for almost 150 years  And to put those into perspective indigenous peole in my area have lived here for over 40000 years and possibly almost twice that 

Its likely that  some of my great grand nieces and nephews   will have great grand nephews and nieces who travel to and colonise other planets, just as  our family (my great grandfather  for example in 1869)  crossed the earth to new homes in new lands  

I was thinking of this, because last week and this week, i attended two, first year birthdays for  one great nephew and one great grand nephew. :)  

Edited by Mr Walker

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joc
On 10/6/2019 at 1:46 PM, Crazy Horse said:

I agree.

God is in everything, and everything is in God.

IMO the universe is a dualistic construct, held within the Mind of God, and that God is above, behind, transcending what we call the universe and cosmos..

God is the Unchanging, Substantial and Real.

Everything else is transitory, in flux and unsubstansive and therefore unreal.

 

 

So why not just call it the universe...because that is what it is....why the need to refer to what is as God?  The universe didn't create itself and it didn't create you or me...it is part of the same constant change that never ceases...never has ceased and never can cease.  The Great Eternal Forever Now.  That isn't God...God is something else.  The universe is real.

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Crazy Horse
3 hours ago, joc said:

So why not just call it the universe...because that is what it is....why the need to refer to what is as God?  The universe didn't create itself and it didn't create you or me...it is part of the same constant change that never ceases...never has ceased and never can cease.  The Great Eternal Forever Now.  That isn't God...God is something else.  The universe is real.

The reason I call it God and not the universe is at least twofold. One is because its tradition.

And the other is becasuse the God I can relate to is, an Intelligent Living Loving and Conscious "THING", and the word universe, in my opinion, just doesn't do Creation justice.

And besides, if we are going to disscuss these things at all, then we have to try to make our ideas, thoughts and feelings as comprehensible, and comprehensive, as possible, using the limited language that we have..

 

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