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Eldorado

"Gay Cake" row goes to European Courts

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Eldorado

"A case involving a Christian bakery, which refused to make a cake with a slogan supporting same-sex marriage, has been referred to the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR).

"Gareth Lee tried but failed to order the £36.50 cake at Ashers bakery in Belfast in May 2014.

"The company declined the order as it was "at odds" with its beliefs."

Full report at the BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49350891

And at the Belfast Telegraph: https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ashers-gay-cake-case-goes-to-the-european-court-38404670.html

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Desertrat56

Is it a private business?  Is there another bakery in town?  I don't get this.  Up to a point I can see business being told they cannot discriminate, but then there are things that just seem too much.  I don't agree with the baker, but he must have plenty of customers so turning one away doesn't hurt his business.  The person ordering the cake, if they did not know there would be a problem, I don't get the law suit.  If the person knew the baker would balk at the order then it was done on purpose and would be a frivolous lawsuit.

What kind of laws in Ireland allows this kind of law suit?  The one a few years ago in Colorado was just as crazy. 

 

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RabidMongoose
Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, Eldorado said:

"A case involving a Christian bakery, which refused to make a cake with a slogan supporting same-sex marriage, has been referred to the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR).

"Gareth Lee tried but failed to order the £36.50 cake at Ashers bakery in Belfast in May 2014.

"The company declined the order as it was "at odds" with its beliefs."

Full report at the BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49350891

And at the Belfast Telegraph: https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ashers-gay-cake-case-goes-to-the-european-court-38404670.html

I`m going to side with the bakery on this one.

Our Equalities Act refers to employment, not doing business. A business has the right to turn down business from any customer for whatever reason.

Edited by RabidMongoose
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OverSword

One more reason to thank goodness for Brexit

Quote

This time, Ashers will not be implicated as the case is being taken against the United Kingdom instead.

:lol:

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Dumbledore the Awesome

You can have your gay cake but you can't eat it. 

Actually seriously, this has been going on for five years now? Is there nothing else the legal system could be doing? 

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Dumbledore the Awesome
56 minutes ago, OverSword said:

I'll also wager there is a bakery within 100 meters of that bakery that will make it.

Well, here's a few to choose from..

 

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ExpandMyMind
1 hour ago, RabidMongoose said:

A business has the right to turn down business from any customer for whatever reason.

No it doesn't. If they had a sign saying 'no blacks', would it be their right to not serve black people?

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RoofGardener
Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

No it doesn't. If they had a sign saying 'no blacks', would it be their right to not serve black people?

They could refuse to serve an individual black person, but not "black people" as a group. 

The bakery didn't refuse to serve Gay people.. they just refused a specific contract, as it contradicted their religious beliefs.

Edited by RoofGardener
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SecretSanta

It just makes me wonder who else (if anyone) they refuse? Like the person who is on a third marriage, is that ok? Or the guy who married his mistress after his divorce? Or the people who had a child out of wedlock? Or say a Halloween cake, I mean we all know that’s the Devil’s holiday. 

I decorate cakes, nothing super elaborate, but I’d do it. I had to write “Happy Birthday Mother F’er” on a cake once. Didn’t phase me at all. 

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hetrodoxly
51 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

No it doesn't. If they had a sign saying 'no blacks', would it be their right to not serve black people?

That didn't take long did it.

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Stiff

It was when they asked for the Spotted Dick and Creampie. It all went downhill from there.

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Scholar4Truth
1 hour ago, ExpandMyMind said:

No it doesn't. If they had a sign saying 'no blacks', would it be their right to not serve black people?

To compare being black to being gay is a bit of a faulty comparison. One deals with skin color, the other a lifestyle or behavior. Besides businesses can refuse service. Let me ask given if it was the other way around would you refuse service if someone asked you to bake a cake for a Klan rally or a Neo Nazi one? even if you believed based on your personal conviction such ideologies are wrong?

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RabidMongoose
Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Scholar4Truth said:

To compare being black to being gay is a bit of a faulty comparison. One deals with skin color, the other a lifestyle or behavior. Besides businesses can refuse service. Let me ask given if it was the other way around would you refuse service if someone asked you to bake a cake for a Klan rally or a Neo Nazi one? even if you believed based on your personal conviction such ideologies are wrong?

Dont forget they didnt refuse the customer for being gay, they refused to make a gay cake.

That isn't illegal.

Edited by RabidMongoose
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Desertrat56
12 minutes ago, Scholar4Truth said:

To compare being black to being gay is a bit of a faulty comparison. One deals with skin color, the other a lifestyle or behavior. Besides businesses can refuse service. Let me ask given if it was the other way around would you refuse service if someone asked you to bake a cake for a Klan rally or a Neo Nazi one? even if you believed based on your personal conviction such ideologies are wrong?

I don't think this is valid either.  If you have a private business you can or should be able to refuse to server someone, no questions asked.  If you consistently refuse to serve people of a certain group, there probably is a problem, but if it is based on the type of job they are asking you to do why can't you refuse?  If I had a bakery and someone ordered a cake and it said Happy Birthday George on it, I don't care what the people buying it believe, I will make the cake.  If they ask me to put "Death to all ..." (anything) I will refuse.  That should be a right. 

Even "christians" who choose to not serve someone who wants something they don't want to  make have the same right as I expect.

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ExpandMyMind
2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

They could refuse to serve an individual black person, but not "black people" as a group. 

The bakery didn't refuse to serve Gay people.. they just refused a specific contract, as it contradicted their religious beliefs.

 

1 hour ago, hetrodoxly said:

That didn't take long did it.

 

35 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I don't think this is valid either.  If you have a private business you can or should be able to refuse to server someone, no questions asked.  If you consistently refuse to serve people of a certain group, there probably is a problem, but if it is based on the type of job they are asking you to do why can't you refuse?  If I had a bakery and someone ordered a cake and it said Happy Birthday George on it, I don't care what the people buying it believe, I will make the cake.  If they ask me to put "Death to all ..." (anything) I will refuse.  That should be a right. 

Even "christians" who choose to not serve someone who wants something they don't want to  make have the same right as I expect.

I was addressing a specific claim by Rabid, in which he claimed that owners of establishments could:

3 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

turn down business from any customer for whatever reason

I wasn't comparing being black to being gay and wasn't actually making a comment or sharing my opinion on the refusal to make the cake. I was simply showing Mongoose, through use of an analogy, that in this country people can't exclude others from their services for any reason they wish. There are limits, and discriminating against people based on race, religion, sexual orientation or one of many other groups is simply illegal.

54 minutes ago, Scholar4Truth said:

To compare being black to being gay is a bit of a faulty comparison. One deals with skin color, the other a lifestyle or behavior.

Not really. Being gay and being black aren't a choice, and someone's sexual orientation isn't simply their 'lifestyle or behaviour' - it's who they are, not simply how they identify with themselves. The similarities of inequality experienced by the two groups (or other groups who are discriminated against) make them inherently comparable.

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RabidMongoose
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

I was addressing a specific claim by Rabid, in which he claimed that owners of establishments could:

I wasn't comparing being black to being gay and wasn't actually making a comment or sharing my opinion on the refusal to make the cake. I was simply showing Mongoose, through use of an analogy, that in this country people can't exclude others from their services for any reason they wish. There are limits, and discriminating against people based on race, religion, sexual orientation or one of many other groups is simply illegal.

Not really. Being gay and being black aren't a choice, and someone's sexual orientation isn't simply their 'lifestyle or behaviour' - it's who they are, not simply how they identify with themselves. The similarities of inequality experienced by the two groups (or other groups who are discriminated against) make them inherently comparable.

In the UK, consumers are not protected by the Equalities Act. An organisation can legally turn down any customer for any reason. I highly suspect that is why the customer in question has gone to the EU.

They will likely lose because no one can force another to undertake a job. That is illegal.

Edited by RabidMongoose
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ExpandMyMind
47 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

In the UK, consumers are not protected by the Equalities Act. An organisation can legally turn down any customer for any reason. I highly suspect that is why the customer in question has gone to the EU.

They will likely lose because no one can force another to undertake a job. That is illegal.

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. How can someone believe this in 2019? It's not been the case for 40 odd years.

The Equality Act 100% does protect consumers from discrimination. It's one of the main purposes behind the original pieces of legislation. 

An organisation absolutely cannot discriminate against consumers. They cannot refuse to provide services to someone due to race, religion, sexual orientation and the list goes on. I'm astounded that you think they can. 

If they lose in court it won't be because companies are allowed to discriminate. It will be because the court has ruled that no discrimination that fits within the boundaries of existing law has taken place.

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rashore
4 hours ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said:

You can have your gay cake but you can't eat it. 

Actually seriously, this has been going on for five years now? Is there nothing else the legal system could be doing? 

I hadn't heard of this case before today and was curious about the five years thing as well... It's been going on so long because Ashers lost the first case, and first appeal.. but won the Supreme Court last October. And now Mr. Lee and the group he is working with is filing up from that Supreme Court decision to the European courts.

Apparently so far it's been rather expensive too. Here's an article from 2018 about it: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-45789759

 

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Dejarma

I wonder the outcome if a person walked into a Harlem dry cleaners asking how much to clean a bunch of  ku klux klan outfits?

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Dumbledore the Awesome
9 hours ago, Scholar4Truth said:

the other a lifestyle or behavior.

holy mother of moses, you don't still believe that do you? It's a choice is it, I suppose? They choose it deliberately just to annoy God-fearing dinosaur Christians? :rolleyes: 

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Setton
9 hours ago, Scholar4Truth said:

To compare being black to being gay is a bit of a faulty comparison. One deals with skin color, the other a lifestyle or behavior. Besides businesses can refuse service. Let me ask given if it was the other way around would you refuse service if someone asked you to bake a cake for a Klan rally or a Neo Nazi one? even if you believed based on your personal conviction such ideologies are wrong?

Being gay is not a choice, lifestyle, behaviour or ideology. 

If you think otherwise, with all the information available today, you're just an idiot. 

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freetoroam
11 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

No it doesn't. If they had a sign saying 'no blacks', would it be their right to not serve black people?

It is not about the colour of their skin, it is about their request. 

There are black christians too, I very much doubt the bakery would refuse them if they requested a christmas cake. 

Skin colour has NOTHING to do with it.

Why have you choosen black, what about yellow or brown? 

Bit racist!!!

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RoofGardener
28 minutes ago, freetoroam said:

It is not about the colour of their skin, it is about their request. 

There are black christians too, I very much doubt the bakery would refuse them if they requested a christmas cake. 

Skin colour has NOTHING to do with it.

Why have you choosen black, what about yellow or brown? 

Bit racist!!!

I think that was being used purely as an illustration ? 

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ExpandMyMind
1 hour ago, freetoroam said:

It is not about the colour of their skin, it is about their request. 

There are black christians too, I very much doubt the bakery would refuse them if they requested a christmas cake. 

Skin colour has NOTHING to do with it.

Why have you choosen black, what about yellow or brown? 

Bit racist!!!

Jesus. Look at my posts again and look at what I was replying to. I wasn't addressing the cake thing and wasn't comparing it to racism, I was addressing a specific comment made by a poster, and the skin colour was used to create an analogy to address said specific comment, not as a way of saying it has anything 'to do with' the cake refusal.

And 

Quote

Why have you choosen black, what about yellow or brown? 

Bit racist!!!

Is just ****ing stupid.

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