Eldorado Posted August 15, 2019 #1 Share Posted August 15, 2019 "A case involving a Christian bakery, which refused to make a cake with a slogan supporting same-sex marriage, has been referred to the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR). "Gareth Lee tried but failed to order the £36.50 cake at Ashers bakery in Belfast in May 2014. "The company declined the order as it was "at odds" with its beliefs." Full report at the BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49350891 And at the Belfast Telegraph: https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ashers-gay-cake-case-goes-to-the-european-court-38404670.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post +OverSword Posted August 15, 2019 Popular Post #2 Share Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) I wonder why they didn't go to a Muslim bakery with this request? My opinion: If you've ever known a baker, and this is especially true for Cake Decorators, you know these people are artist's. Decorating cakes is an art. Nobody should be required to take on an art project by the government and they should not have to give more reason than I don't want to. Quote Last year, the firm won its appeal at the UK Supreme Court, which ruled its actions were not discriminatory. Mr Lee's latest legal bid will argue that the Supreme Court "failed to give appropriate weight" to him under the European Convention of Human Rights. What a pain in the ass. I'll bet you he targeted this bakery knowing full well the religious people that run it would decline him. I'll also wager there is a bakery within 100 meters of that bakery that will make it. Edited August 15, 2019 by OverSword 10 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Desertrat56 Posted August 15, 2019 #3 Share Posted August 15, 2019 Is it a private business? Is there another bakery in town? I don't get this. Up to a point I can see business being told they cannot discriminate, but then there are things that just seem too much. I don't agree with the baker, but he must have plenty of customers so turning one away doesn't hurt his business. The person ordering the cake, if they did not know there would be a problem, I don't get the law suit. If the person knew the baker would balk at the order then it was done on purpose and would be a frivolous lawsuit. What kind of laws in Ireland allows this kind of law suit? The one a few years ago in Colorado was just as crazy. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted August 15, 2019 #4 Share Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Eldorado said: "A case involving a Christian bakery, which refused to make a cake with a slogan supporting same-sex marriage, has been referred to the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR). "Gareth Lee tried but failed to order the £36.50 cake at Ashers bakery in Belfast in May 2014. "The company declined the order as it was "at odds" with its beliefs." Full report at the BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-49350891 And at the Belfast Telegraph: https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ashers-gay-cake-case-goes-to-the-european-court-38404670.html I`m going to side with the bakery on this one. Our Equalities Act refers to employment, not doing business. A business has the right to turn down business from any customer for whatever reason. Edited August 15, 2019 by RabidMongoose 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+OverSword Posted August 15, 2019 #5 Share Posted August 15, 2019 One more reason to thank goodness for Brexit Quote This time, Ashers will not be implicated as the case is being taken against the United Kingdom instead. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted August 15, 2019 #6 Share Posted August 15, 2019 You can have your gay cake but you can't eat it. Actually seriously, this has been going on for five years now? Is there nothing else the legal system could be doing? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted August 15, 2019 #7 Share Posted August 15, 2019 56 minutes ago, OverSword said: I'll also wager there is a bakery within 100 meters of that bakery that will make it. Well, here's a few to choose from.. THE BEST 10 Bakeries in Belfast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExpandMyMind Posted August 15, 2019 #8 Share Posted August 15, 2019 1 hour ago, RabidMongoose said: A business has the right to turn down business from any customer for whatever reason. No it doesn't. If they had a sign saying 'no blacks', would it be their right to not serve black people? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoofGardener Posted August 15, 2019 #9 Share Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said: No it doesn't. If they had a sign saying 'no blacks', would it be their right to not serve black people? They could refuse to serve an individual black person, but not "black people" as a group. The bakery didn't refuse to serve Gay people.. they just refused a specific contract, as it contradicted their religious beliefs. Edited August 15, 2019 by RoofGardener 6 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretSanta Posted August 15, 2019 #10 Share Posted August 15, 2019 It just makes me wonder who else (if anyone) they refuse? Like the person who is on a third marriage, is that ok? Or the guy who married his mistress after his divorce? Or the people who had a child out of wedlock? Or say a Halloween cake, I mean we all know that’s the Devil’s holiday. I decorate cakes, nothing super elaborate, but I’d do it. I had to write “Happy Birthday Mother F’er” on a cake once. Didn’t phase me at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hetrodoxly Posted August 15, 2019 #11 Share Posted August 15, 2019 51 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said: No it doesn't. If they had a sign saying 'no blacks', would it be their right to not serve black people? That didn't take long did it. 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stiff Posted August 15, 2019 #12 Share Posted August 15, 2019 It was when they asked for the Spotted Dick and Creampie. It all went downhill from there. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scholar4Truth Posted August 15, 2019 #13 Share Posted August 15, 2019 1 hour ago, ExpandMyMind said: No it doesn't. If they had a sign saying 'no blacks', would it be their right to not serve black people? To compare being black to being gay is a bit of a faulty comparison. One deals with skin color, the other a lifestyle or behavior. Besides businesses can refuse service. Let me ask given if it was the other way around would you refuse service if someone asked you to bake a cake for a Klan rally or a Neo Nazi one? even if you believed based on your personal conviction such ideologies are wrong? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted August 15, 2019 #14 Share Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, Scholar4Truth said: To compare being black to being gay is a bit of a faulty comparison. One deals with skin color, the other a lifestyle or behavior. Besides businesses can refuse service. Let me ask given if it was the other way around would you refuse service if someone asked you to bake a cake for a Klan rally or a Neo Nazi one? even if you believed based on your personal conviction such ideologies are wrong? Dont forget they didnt refuse the customer for being gay, they refused to make a gay cake. That isn't illegal. Edited August 15, 2019 by RabidMongoose 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Desertrat56 Posted August 15, 2019 #15 Share Posted August 15, 2019 12 minutes ago, Scholar4Truth said: To compare being black to being gay is a bit of a faulty comparison. One deals with skin color, the other a lifestyle or behavior. Besides businesses can refuse service. Let me ask given if it was the other way around would you refuse service if someone asked you to bake a cake for a Klan rally or a Neo Nazi one? even if you believed based on your personal conviction such ideologies are wrong? I don't think this is valid either. If you have a private business you can or should be able to refuse to server someone, no questions asked. If you consistently refuse to serve people of a certain group, there probably is a problem, but if it is based on the type of job they are asking you to do why can't you refuse? If I had a bakery and someone ordered a cake and it said Happy Birthday George on it, I don't care what the people buying it believe, I will make the cake. If they ask me to put "Death to all ..." (anything) I will refuse. That should be a right. Even "christians" who choose to not serve someone who wants something they don't want to make have the same right as I expect. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExpandMyMind Posted August 15, 2019 #16 Share Posted August 15, 2019 2 hours ago, RoofGardener said: They could refuse to serve an individual black person, but not "black people" as a group. The bakery didn't refuse to serve Gay people.. they just refused a specific contract, as it contradicted their religious beliefs. 1 hour ago, hetrodoxly said: That didn't take long did it. 35 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said: I don't think this is valid either. If you have a private business you can or should be able to refuse to server someone, no questions asked. If you consistently refuse to serve people of a certain group, there probably is a problem, but if it is based on the type of job they are asking you to do why can't you refuse? If I had a bakery and someone ordered a cake and it said Happy Birthday George on it, I don't care what the people buying it believe, I will make the cake. If they ask me to put "Death to all ..." (anything) I will refuse. That should be a right. Even "christians" who choose to not serve someone who wants something they don't want to make have the same right as I expect. I was addressing a specific claim by Rabid, in which he claimed that owners of establishments could: 3 hours ago, RabidMongoose said: turn down business from any customer for whatever reason I wasn't comparing being black to being gay and wasn't actually making a comment or sharing my opinion on the refusal to make the cake. I was simply showing Mongoose, through use of an analogy, that in this country people can't exclude others from their services for any reason they wish. There are limits, and discriminating against people based on race, religion, sexual orientation or one of many other groups is simply illegal. 54 minutes ago, Scholar4Truth said: To compare being black to being gay is a bit of a faulty comparison. One deals with skin color, the other a lifestyle or behavior. Not really. Being gay and being black aren't a choice, and someone's sexual orientation isn't simply their 'lifestyle or behaviour' - it's who they are, not simply how they identify with themselves. The similarities of inequality experienced by the two groups (or other groups who are discriminated against) make them inherently comparable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted August 15, 2019 #17 Share Posted August 15, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said: I was addressing a specific claim by Rabid, in which he claimed that owners of establishments could: I wasn't comparing being black to being gay and wasn't actually making a comment or sharing my opinion on the refusal to make the cake. I was simply showing Mongoose, through use of an analogy, that in this country people can't exclude others from their services for any reason they wish. There are limits, and discriminating against people based on race, religion, sexual orientation or one of many other groups is simply illegal. Not really. Being gay and being black aren't a choice, and someone's sexual orientation isn't simply their 'lifestyle or behaviour' - it's who they are, not simply how they identify with themselves. The similarities of inequality experienced by the two groups (or other groups who are discriminated against) make them inherently comparable. In the UK, consumers are not protected by the Equalities Act. An organisation can legally turn down any customer for any reason. I highly suspect that is why the customer in question has gone to the EU. They will likely lose because no one can force another to undertake a job. That is illegal. Edited August 15, 2019 by RabidMongoose 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExpandMyMind Posted August 15, 2019 #18 Share Posted August 15, 2019 47 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said: In the UK, consumers are not protected by the Equalities Act. An organisation can legally turn down any customer for any reason. I highly suspect that is why the customer in question has gone to the EU. They will likely lose because no one can force another to undertake a job. That is illegal. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. How can someone believe this in 2019? It's not been the case for 40 odd years. The Equality Act 100% does protect consumers from discrimination. It's one of the main purposes behind the original pieces of legislation. An organisation absolutely cannot discriminate against consumers. They cannot refuse to provide services to someone due to race, religion, sexual orientation and the list goes on. I'm astounded that you think they can. If they lose in court it won't be because companies are allowed to discriminate. It will be because the court has ruled that no discrimination that fits within the boundaries of existing law has taken place. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rashore Posted August 15, 2019 #19 Share Posted August 15, 2019 4 hours ago, Dumbledore the Awesome said: You can have your gay cake but you can't eat it. Actually seriously, this has been going on for five years now? Is there nothing else the legal system could be doing? I hadn't heard of this case before today and was curious about the five years thing as well... It's been going on so long because Ashers lost the first case, and first appeal.. but won the Supreme Court last October. And now Mr. Lee and the group he is working with is filing up from that Supreme Court decision to the European courts. Apparently so far it's been rather expensive too. Here's an article from 2018 about it: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-45789759 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dejarma Posted August 15, 2019 #20 Share Posted August 15, 2019 I wonder the outcome if a person walked into a Harlem dry cleaners asking how much to clean a bunch of ku klux klan outfits? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted August 16, 2019 #21 Share Posted August 16, 2019 9 hours ago, Scholar4Truth said: the other a lifestyle or behavior. holy mother of moses, you don't still believe that do you? It's a choice is it, I suppose? They choose it deliberately just to annoy God-fearing dinosaur Christians? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setton Posted August 16, 2019 #22 Share Posted August 16, 2019 9 hours ago, Scholar4Truth said: To compare being black to being gay is a bit of a faulty comparison. One deals with skin color, the other a lifestyle or behavior. Besides businesses can refuse service. Let me ask given if it was the other way around would you refuse service if someone asked you to bake a cake for a Klan rally or a Neo Nazi one? even if you believed based on your personal conviction such ideologies are wrong? Being gay is not a choice, lifestyle, behaviour or ideology. If you think otherwise, with all the information available today, you're just an idiot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freetoroam Posted August 16, 2019 #23 Share Posted August 16, 2019 11 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said: No it doesn't. If they had a sign saying 'no blacks', would it be their right to not serve black people? It is not about the colour of their skin, it is about their request. There are black christians too, I very much doubt the bakery would refuse them if they requested a christmas cake. Skin colour has NOTHING to do with it. Why have you choosen black, what about yellow or brown? Bit racist!!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoofGardener Posted August 16, 2019 #24 Share Posted August 16, 2019 28 minutes ago, freetoroam said: It is not about the colour of their skin, it is about their request. There are black christians too, I very much doubt the bakery would refuse them if they requested a christmas cake. Skin colour has NOTHING to do with it. Why have you choosen black, what about yellow or brown? Bit racist!!! I think that was being used purely as an illustration ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExpandMyMind Posted August 16, 2019 #25 Share Posted August 16, 2019 1 hour ago, freetoroam said: It is not about the colour of their skin, it is about their request. There are black christians too, I very much doubt the bakery would refuse them if they requested a christmas cake. Skin colour has NOTHING to do with it. Why have you choosen black, what about yellow or brown? Bit racist!!! Jesus. Look at my posts again and look at what I was replying to. I wasn't addressing the cake thing and wasn't comparing it to racism, I was addressing a specific comment made by a poster, and the skin colour was used to create an analogy to address said specific comment, not as a way of saying it has anything 'to do with' the cake refusal. And Quote Why have you choosen black, what about yellow or brown? Bit racist!!! Is just ****ing stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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