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"Gay Cake" row goes to European Courts


Eldorado
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3 hours ago, Setton said:

Being gay is not a choice, lifestyle, behaviour or ideology. 

ROFL... tell that to the "progressives." :P 

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10 hours ago, ExpandMyMind said:

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. How can someone believe this in 2019? It's not been the case for 40 odd years.

The Equality Act 100% does protect consumers from discrimination. It's one of the main purposes behind the original pieces of legislation. 

An organisation absolutely cannot discriminate against consumers. They cannot refuse to provide services to someone due to race, religion, sexual orientation and the list goes on. I'm astounded that you think they can. 

If they lose in court it won't be because companies are allowed to discriminate. It will be because the court has ruled that no discrimination that fits within the boundaries of existing law has taken place.

The Equalities Act does not offer the same protections to consumers as it does to employees.

If you come into my Christian Wedding Cake shop I cannot abuse or bully you for your lifestyle choice. That would be illegal. But as a Christian I can indeed refuse to make you a gay cake because thats at odds with my own values. If my cake shop isn't obviously Christian then I would communicate that to you. Then I would be tactful and offer to make you a normal wedding cake instead.

If my wedding cake shop is obviously Christian then I would be inclined to believe you are only there to troll me. In which case you would be asked to leave the premises. Not for being gay, not because we didnt want to make you a gay cake, but because you have deliberately and intentionally entered my shop to cause trouble.

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2 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

If you come into my Christian Wedding Cake shop I cannot abuse or bully you for your lifestyle choice. That would be illegal. But as a Christian I can indeed refuse to make you a gay cake because thats at odds with my own values. If my cake shop isn't obviously Christian then I would communicate that to you. Then I would be tactful and offer to make you a normal wedding cake instead.

If my wedding cake shop is obviously Christian then I would be inclined to believe you are only there to troll me. In which case you would be asked to leave the premises. Not for being gay, not because we didnt want to make you a gay cake, but because you have deliberately and intentionally entered my shop to cause trouble.

I'm not arguing for or against this point of view. I'm arguing against this claim:

2 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

The Equalities Act does not offer the same protections to consumers as it does to employees.

It absolutely does. The Equality Act (2010) is a consolidation of many previous protective acts, including:

Quote
  • Sex Discrimination Act 1975
  • Race Relations Act 1976
  • Disability Discrimination Act 1995

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/equality-act-2010-guidance

It specifically states that consumers are offered the same protections as employees:

Quote

It is against the law to discriminate against anyone because of:

  • age
  • gender reassignment
  • being married or in a civil partnership
  • being pregnant or on maternity leave
  • disability
  • race including colour, nationality, ethnic or national origin
  • religion or belief
  • sex
  • sexual orientation

These are called ‘protected characteristics’.

You’re protected from discrimination:

  • at work
  • in education
  • as a consumer
  • when using public services
  • when buying or renting property
  • as a member or guest of a private club or association

You’re legally protected from discrimination by the Equality Act 2010.

https://www.gov.uk/discrimination-your-rights

You are absolutely wrong. 

Now, there is an argument to be made that refusing to decorate this cake is also discrimination, but it's far more complicated a subject than altogether refusing service to homosexuals. This is why I haven't commented on it. It's without a doubt discrimination of a sort and completely abhorrent, but perhaps not discrimination that is covered by existing laws. I'll wait and see what the courts decide.

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18 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

If my wedding cake shop is obviously Christian then I would be inclined to believe you are only there to troll me. In which case you would be asked to leave the premises. Not for being gay, not because we didnt want to make you a gay cake, but because you have deliberately and intentionally entered my shop to cause trouble.

Absolutely this.

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1 hour ago, ExpandMyMind said:

I'm not arguing for or against this point of view. I'm arguing against this claim:

It absolutely does. The Equality Act (2010) is a consolidation of many previous protective acts, including:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/equality-act-2010-guidance

It specifically states that consumers are offered the same protections as employees:

https://www.gov.uk/discrimination-your-rights

You are absolutely wrong. 

Now, there is an argument to be made that refusing to decorate this cake is also discrimination, but it's far more complicated a subject than altogether refusing service to homosexuals. This is why I haven't commented on it. It's without a doubt discrimination of a sort and completely abhorrent, but perhaps not discrimination that is covered by existing laws. I'll wait and see what the courts decide.

How is refusing to make a gay cake discrimination?

In my example refusing to make the gay cake actually has nothing to do with the gay customer. The decision was made because making it would violate the religious beliefs of the shop owners. They didnt discriminate against the customer, their decision was about preserving their own values. Forcing them to make the cake is discrimination against them.

The gay customer was offered an alternative cake unless they were there to cause trouble in which case they were asked to leave. There is no discrimination going on. Why do gay people need the rest of society to revolve around them? To accept them and validate them?

Most of society really doesnt care about their lifestyle choice, we just want to get on with our own lives. Why are they determined to make their lifestyle choice our problem?

Edited by RabidMongoose
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45 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

How is refusing to make a gay cake discrimination?

In my example refusing to make the gay cake actually has nothing to do with the gay customer. The decision was made because making it would violate the religious beliefs of the shop owners. They didnt discriminate against the customer, their decision was about preserving their own values. Forcing them to make the cake is discrimination against them.

The gay customer was offered an alternative cake unless they were there to cause trouble in which case they were asked to leave. There is no discrimination going on. Why do gay people need the rest of society to revolve around them? To accept them and validate them?

Most of society really doesnt care about their lifestyle choice, we just want to get on with our own lives. Why are they determined to make their lifestyle choice our problem?

Purely out of mischief... what if the customers where black, and the shop owners where White Nationalists and KKK members. What if the cake would have been offensive to THEIR beliefs, because it celebrated the marriage of a black man to a white woman ?

An extreme example, I know. But how would THAT play out with the various "discrimination" laws ?

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57 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Why do gay people need the rest of society to revolve around them? To accept them and validate them?

Most of society really doesnt care about their lifestyle choice, we just want to get on with our own lives. Why are they determined to make their lifestyle choice our problem?

The ignorance of the above shows me that it would be pointless to put forth any argument. If you think they need 'society to revolve around them', that there is no basis for their desire to be 'accepted' and 'validated' (accepted being a fundamental right granted to them and all law-abiding citizens), that it is a 'lifestyle choice' or even that you think they are making it 'your' problem, then you are simply one of the most ignorant and misinformed - or outright uninformed - people I've seen on these forums that wasn't a fundamentalist evangelical. 

The fact that you're characterising being gay as some sort of a choice, after the replies that already exist in this thread, makes me also believe that you're at least partly trolling. 2019 and people still think this is up for debate. I mean for ****s sake man.

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38 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Purely out of mischief... what if the customers where black, and the shop owners where White Nationalists and KKK members. What if the cake would have been offensive to THEIR beliefs, because it celebrated the marriage of a black man to a white woman ?

An extreme example, I know. But how would THAT play out with the various "discrimination" laws ?

What a nonsensical question.

You cannot create a hypothetical scenario in one country, and then try to judge if its discrimination based on the laws of another. The KKK exist in the USA, not the UK.

British legislation applies only in the UK or did you forget?

Edited by RabidMongoose
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2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

ROFL... tell that to the "progressives." :P 

You find me one who says it is and I will... 

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17 minutes ago, ExpandMyMind said:

The ignorance of the above shows me that it would be pointless to put forth any argument. If you think they need 'society to revolve around them', that there is no basis for their desire to be 'accepted' and 'validated' (accepted being a fundamental right granted to them and all law-abiding citizens), that it is a 'lifestyle choice' or even that you think they are making it 'your' problem, then you are simply one of the most ignorant and misinformed - or outright uninformed - people I've seen on these forums that wasn't a fundamentalist evangelical. 

The fact that you're characterising being gay as some sort of a choice, after the replies that already exist in this thread, makes me also believe that you're at least partly trolling. 2019 and people still think this is up for debate. I mean for ****s sake man.

Lets pretend I am the cake shop owner.

My religious values are important to me so I choose to protect them by refusing to make a gay cake. I am not refusing the customer to be mean to them, to have a go at them, because I dont like them, because I want to discriminate against them, or because I disapprove of their lifestyle choice.

I am refusing the work because it causes a conflict between me and my own religious values. It is simply about me, not the customer, and therefore there is no discrimination. Dont you get it? If you were the customer then how someone behaves isn't necessarily all about you.

In all legal cases I can find on the internet where a shop has refused to make a gay wedding cake here in the UK then the shop has won the case. That includes the high-profile one in Belfast a few years ago, although the owners had to go to an appeal to win that.

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22 hours ago, Stiff said:

It was when they asked for the Spotted Dick and Creampie. It all went downhill from there.

Where I come from down south in the U.S. we have an expression we use (lovingly) when a friend says cringe worthy stuff:  YOU JUST AIN'T RIGHT... :w00t:

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1 minute ago, and then said:

Where I come from down south in the U.S. we have an expression we use (lovingly) when a friend says cringe worthy stuff:  YOU JUST AIN'T RIGHT... :w00t:

In Texas it is "Bless your heart."

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7 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Purely out of mischief... what if the customers where black, and the shop owners where White Nationalists and KKK members. What if the cake would have been offensive to THEIR beliefs, because it celebrated the marriage of a black man to a white woman ?

An extreme example, I know. But how would THAT play out with the various "discrimination" laws ?

I believe that social interactions should be voluntary and everyone's right to dignity should be respected.  EVERYONE'S rights.  There are militants in nearly every walk of life these days that are attempting to use "lawfare" to punish or coerce behavior and it has gone from being offensive to ridiculous to corrosive.  If a gay couple want a wedding cake or a specially talented wedding photographer and that person is constrained by their religious beliefs then as long as the couple have another option, their participation should not be forced on pain of litigation.  

 

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5 minutes ago, and then said:

I believe that social interactions should be voluntary and everyone's right to dignity should be respected.  EVERYONE'S rights.  There are militants in nearly every walk of life these days that are attempting to use "lawfare" to punish or coerce behavior and it has gone from being offensive to ridiculous to corrosive.  If a gay couple want a wedding cake or a specially talented wedding photographer and that person is constrained by their religious beliefs then as long as the couple have another option, their participation should not be forced on pain of litigation.  

 

When I lived near Augusta, Ga in the 70's the KKK proudly displayed their membership in their businesses so that no one could be confused and accidentally try to buy their services if they were not white.  I don't know about the rest of the south, but that was a good way to know which businesses you might want to do business with. 

But the Feds sued them after a news story that the high school had an annual recruiting meeting for senior white boys.  There  were army kids in that school who were shocked and called the news media because when their parents complained the principal just told them to  mind their own business because it was his school.  What I found interesting is that the news people interviewed the student who called them and the principal and the student was much more articulate than the principal.

Edited by Desertrat56
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28 minutes ago, and then said:

Where I come from down south in the U.S. we have an expression we use (lovingly) when a friend says cringe worthy stuff:  YOU JUST AIN'T RIGHT... :w00t:

Where I'm from it's generally "S T F U" AND "G T F O". I like your expressions better :tsu:

Edited by Stiff
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8 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

When I lived near Augusta, Ga in the 70's the KKK proudly displayed their membership in their businesses so that no one could be confused and accidentally try to buy their services if they were not white.  I don't know about the rest of the south, but that was a good way to know which businesses you might want to do business with. 

But the Feds sued them after a news story that the high school had an annual recruiting meeting for senior white boys.  There  were army kids in that school who were shocked and called the news media because when their parents complained the principal just told them to  mind their own business because it was his school.  What I found interesting is that the news people interviewed the student who called them and the principal and the student was much more articulate than the principal.

Growing up in Mobile, Alabama in the 60's I can recall "invitations" being left on car windshields for meetings and cross burnings in pastures and such.  Very few people were interested by that time.  I don't believe the modern Democrat Party had totally virtuous intentions by forcing integration and bussing but it was time for that rift to be mended and it did a LOT of good in the south.  Going to school, playing, competing, getting to KNOW people of different races really diminished the tribalism and nastiness that whites often felt for blacks back then.  It's hard to hate people who could just as easily be a good friend.  

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14 minutes ago, and then said:

Growing up in Mobile, Alabama in the 60's I can recall "invitations" being left on car windshields for meetings and cross burnings in pastures and such.  Very few people were interested by that time.  I don't believe the modern Democrat Party had totally virtuous intentions by forcing integration and bussing but it was time for that rift to be mended and it did a LOT of good in the south.  Going to school, playing, competing, getting to KNOW people of different races really diminished the tribalism and nastiness that whites often felt for blacks back then.  It's hard to hate people who could just as easily be a good friend.  

When I moved to Midland, Texas in 1988 I was shocked to learn that the Fed had only recently sued the school district to get rid of segregation.  ( I think it was as late as 1982).  Their solution was really strange.  Every elementary school child staye at the school in their neighborhood for K-3rd and then all 4th graders were bused to one school, then 5th graders to another and the 6th graders to the 3rd. (It was a small town).  Some new christian schools popped up for people who did not want their child in another neighborhood and those were usually segregated.   I lasted about 3 years in that town before I got my kids out of there.  I think 3 years was too long, but I couldn't find a job in NM so I finally just quit and moved home without a job. 

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23 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

I think that was being used purely as an illustration ? 

Yes I know it was. 

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18 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

What a nonsensical question.

You cannot create a hypothetical scenario in one country, and then try to judge if its discrimination based on the laws of another. The KKK exist in the USA, not the UK.

British legislation applies only in the UK or did you forget?

< sigh> OK then, the shop owners are members of Britain First, and the customers where Muslim, wanting a cake to celebrate Immigration ? 

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Shop owners Muslim, Christians wanting a cake celebrating the resurrection, hang on the Christians probably wouldn't have put them in that situation and if they had it wouldn't have become big news, again if it had the usual suspects on here would be arguing for the right of the Muslims not to make the cake on the grounds 'it's their religion'.

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13 hours ago, and then said:

Growing up in Mobile, Alabama in the 60's I can recall "invitations" being left on car windshields for meetings and cross burnings in pastures and such.  Very few people were interested by that time.  I don't believe the modern Democrat Party had totally virtuous intentions by forcing integration and bussing but it was time for that rift to be mended and it did a LOT of good in the south.  Going to school, playing, competing, getting to KNOW people of different races really diminished the tribalism and nastiness that whites often felt for blacks back then.  It's hard to hate people who could just as easily be a good friend.  

When i first heard the the name of the KKK,s handbook the 'Kloran' i thought where has that come from, were they influenced by Hitlers love of Islam, but i think it predates Hitlers known views on the subject.

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2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

< sigh> OK then, the shop owners are members of Britain First, and the customers where Muslim, wanting a cake to celebrate Immigration ? 

He doesn't understand analogies.

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1 hour ago, hetrodoxly said:

Shop owners Muslim, Christians wanting a cake celebrating the resurrection, hang on the Christians probably wouldn't have put them in that situation and if they had it wouldn't have become big news, again if it had the usual suspects on here would be arguing for the right of the Muslims not to make the cake on the grounds 'it's their religion'.

You ever bought alcohol from a Muslim?

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1 hour ago, ExpandMyMind said:

You ever bought alcohol from a Muslim?

I had a martini off a Muslim, cake from a Christian and a balloon off a Buddhist, i once hugged an Hindu, where is this leading and why do you ask.

                                                                                                                                                                            

 

Edited by hetrodoxly
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41 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

I had a martini off a Muslim, cake from a Christian and a balloon off a Buddhist, i once hugged an Hindu, where is this leading and why do you ask.

                                                                                                                                                                            

 

A Christian making a gay themed cake and a Muslim selling alcohol are in essence no different. Neither action directly conflicts with their religions, since they aren't drinking alcohol or engaging in gay sex.

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