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markdohle

What happens when you Die | Researching NDE

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joc

Hi

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joc
On 8/18/2019 at 12:29 PM, and then said:

Why?  Or, more specifically, why doesn't it happen to the other 80% of people who are in the same near death circumstance?  Black and white thinking may be comforting but it's also intellectually lazy, IMO.  

The most powerful aspect of this phenomenon - whatever it's causation - is that many people who experience them are changed for the better in powerful ways.  That's a positive effect in a world full of negativity.  Its rarity should make it precious rather than making it a punchline.

The 'punchline' is created by those that believe they were actually dead.  We know...yes...we KNOW that if you are actually dead...you tell no tales.  So NDE might as well stand for Not Dead Experience.  Because if you are actually dead...you are actually dead.  

If the 'spirit' didn't need a body to live...then why do we have bodies to begin with?  Why are we not all just 'spirits' floating around in the great afterlife?

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and then
On 8/18/2019 at 4:04 PM, Jodie.Lynne said:

But, when someone can commit an act of murder, or inflict injustice,

Are these two actions equally egregious in your opinion?  Who gets to decide what "injustice" is and what penalty should be borne by the offender?  You?  

 

On 8/18/2019 at 4:04 PM, Jodie.Lynne said:

you don't get to hand wave it away by saying they aren't true

You take the authority to yourself to tell another what they can believe?  I don't think so.  You may feel that you have that right but it's only an illusion you enjoy.  I am responsible for MY actions, not the actions of others NOR the opinions others hold about me and what I believe.  You wouldn't stand for someone telling you you cannot (fill in the blank) so why do you imagine you have the right to do so for others?  

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and then
On 8/18/2019 at 6:51 PM, Habitat said:

Are they true reports ? I don't know

Neither does he but it doesn't stop his dogmatic approach to every argument of this type.  Kind of odd behavior for someone who is so supposedly science minded.

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joc
7 hours ago, and then said:

Neither does he but it doesn't stop his dogmatic approach to every argument of this type.  Kind of odd behavior for someone who is so supposedly science minded.

Every anecdote concerning NDE is exactly that...anecdote.  There is no proof.  He said she said.  

It is important to take a dogmatic approach to complete and total BS.  Otherwise one opens one's own self up to being manipulated by other people.  There is no science that says there is an afterlife.  In fact...all we have is anecdote from the living.  Near death isn't death.  Find an actual corpse...bring them back to life...then ask them if they remember anything after they died.  Wait...you can't do that ...because the dead NEVER come back to life.  That Jesus even came back to life is a lie perpetuated by Peter himself...imo.  And yet, belief in that lie is a prerequisite for gaining acceptance in the After Life in the Kingdom of Heaven.  See why it is important to take a dogmatic approach when it comes to BS?

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preacherman76
2 hours ago, joc said:

Every anecdote concerning NDE is exactly that...anecdote.  There is no proof.  He said she said.  

It is important to take a dogmatic approach to complete and total BS.  Otherwise one opens one's own self up to being manipulated by other people.  There is no science that says there is an afterlife.  In fact...all we have is anecdote from the living.  Near death isn't death.  Find an actual corpse...bring them back to life...then ask them if they remember anything after they died.  Wait...you can't do that ...because the dead NEVER come back to life.  That Jesus even came back to life is a lie perpetuated by Peter himself...imo.  And yet, belief in that lie is a prerequisite for gaining acceptance in the After Life in the Kingdom of Heaven.  See why it is important to take a dogmatic approach when it comes to BS?

So your stance is that the millions of people who have had such an experience were lying? Statistical odds is a scientific method, no? Last I've seen on average 25% of people who suffer heart attacks seemed to have reported some type of NDE. Those are profound numbers, and are only getting greater as the population grows. That doesn't count the same stories we see from many types of accidents and such. Now is that outright reason to fully believe? No I don't think so, but it certainly shouldn't just be dismissed as easily as this. When it comes to any subject, you cant just reject the tons of data that these people bring to the table. I can agree it's most likely that these people did not fully die, but in many of the cases science couldn't tell the difference, at least for now. Why shouldn't that account for something? Even if it only gave you a one half % on the joc meter? ;)

Now maybe the folks who say the brain is trying to easy the transition with hallucinations are correct. I gotta ask though, why should that be any less scrutinized then any other theory? Not to dismiss the idea outright, but it seems strange to me that an organ somehow has its own form of consciousness apart from ourselves. I mean that's essentially what they are saying here no? That the brain, apart from ourselves has created a illusion to stop our regular consciousness from resisting the inevitable? Where is the evidence for that? Are there other examples of something similar happening in other circumstances? I'm no expert, but I'd dare say no.    

Seems to me you assume way to much here, especially regarding scriptures account of death. I'd dare say most people who believe in a afterlife don't strictly believe that. I know I don't. If there is a heaven I can see no reason to believe I'd make the cut over someone like yourself. Heck if I was in charge of it I'd make sure folks like yourself were brought in, just to see the look on your face when you first walked through the door lol.

In all seriousness though, I don't know if there is an afterlife. Or if there is, what it would be like when we got there. I have to say that the data is perplexing though. There are greater men then I, who both strongly consider, and other equally great men who outright dismiss the idea. So I basically feel we are in good company regardless of what camp we find ourselves in.

Edited by preacherman76
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spartan max2
18 hours ago, Mr Guitar said:

A tad 'off topic' but, if there is an afterlife and we go to some spiritual realm and see those loved ones who went before us, will we be able to have sex? Looking at it from a spiritual point of view, sex was made enjoyable so we'd reproduce and also for recreational purposes. If that's the case, would we no longer be able to enjoy the company of others in that manner? Or, as someone said, 'would we just float around as free spirits with nothing much to do'? Sounds boring to me. I don't believe in the possibility of becoming one with some 'great whatever' or sitting around on a cloud playing a harp. Check out a great Jack Benny flick called "The Horn Blows at Midnight".

The feeling of sex, like all feelings, actually originate in your brain. 

If there is an afterlife it would probably be unfathomable to think about.

I'm sure spirits would originate their own feelings. Or if unable to have sex you probably just wouldn't want too. 

 

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preacherman76
2 hours ago, joc said:

Every anecdote concerning NDE is exactly that...anecdote.  There is no proof.  He said she said.  

I'd say science completely disagrees with this statement. I'd say every report of a NDE is one small piece of compiled data, that when looked at in it's entirety, and searched for patterns, paints an amazing portfolio of something as of yet we can not understand. It's seems to me a waste to throw it all in the trash as easy as this. That's regardless of what you believe regarding an afterlife.

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preacherman76
40 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

The feeling of sex, like all feelings, actually originate in your brain. 

If there is an afterlife it would probably be unfathomable to think about.

I'm sure spirits would originate their own feelings. Or if unable to have sex you probably just wouldn't want too. 

 

I'm a little torn on this one. I mostly agree, but there is one small part of me, the part that has experienced such activities in what some would call astral projection that gives me pause. Then again, that was operating from a fully functioning brain at the time lol. Well maybe not everyone would agree with the fully functioning brain part, but well that's all lol.

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XenoFish

Why do some people desperately want an afterlife to be true? 

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spartan max2
1 hour ago, preacherman76 said:

I'd say science completely disagrees with this statement. I'd say every report of a NDE is one small piece of compiled data, that when looked at in it's entirety, and searched for patterns, paints an amazing portfolio of something as of yet we can not understand. It's seems to me a waste to throw it all in the trash as easy as this. That's regardless of what you believe regarding an afterlife.

Many lines of research begin from ancedotea of patients expressing weird symptoms to their doctors. After enough people express the same thing someone decides to research it.

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Aquila King
15 hours ago, joc said:

Hi

:st

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Aquila King
2 hours ago, preacherman76 said:

In all seriousness though, I don't know if there is an afterlife. Or if there is, what it would be like when we got there. I have to say that the data is perplexing though. There are greater men then I, who both strongly consider, and other equally great men who outright dismiss the idea. So I basically feel we are in good company regardless of what camp we find ourselves in.

That's basically the same way I see it. Guess we'll find out when we kick the bucket.

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Scholar4Truth
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Why do some people desperately want an afterlife to be true? 

The same question can be posed to the radical skeptic. Why are some desperate for there not being one? 

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XenoFish
Just now, Scholar4Truth said:

The same question can be posed to the radical skeptic. Why are some desperate for there not being one? 

There no supporting evidence for an actual afterlife. Just anecdotal stories is all. We die and that is it. Only thing left of us will be a memory which will eventually vanish.

If you want to take this to a spiritual place, then the idea of a god who will punish you for everything for all eternity makes the afterlife idea less appealing. Then again if there is an afterlife this life we live is truly meaningless. 

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Scholar4Truth
21 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

There no supporting evidence for an actual afterlife. Just anecdotal stories is all. We die and that is it. Only thing left of us will be a memory which will eventually vanish.

If you want to take this to a spiritual place, then the idea of a god who will punish you for everything for all eternity makes the afterlife idea less appealing. Then again if there is an afterlife this life we live is truly meaningless. 

Your statement begs the question that our actions in the present would not have results in a future life. In this case its a fallacy of choosing one or the other. If life or actions both in this present life have an affect in the future on the natural plane of existence, why assume it cannot on another one. 

Even if we take your claim at face value, it may prove meaningless for some people, but your claim is taking your view and trying to make it a universal experience for everyone. And that is a poor argument. 

Edited by Scholar4Truth

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XenoFish
18 minutes ago, Scholar4Truth said:

Your statement begs the question that our actions in the present would not have results in a future life. In this case its a fallacy of choosing one or the other. If life or actions both in this present life have an affect in the future on the natural plane of existence, why assume it cannot on another one. 

Even if we take your claim at face value, it may prove meaningless for some people, but your claim is taking your view and trying to make it a universal experience for everyone. And that is a poor argument. 

It doesn't matter what I think. 

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Scholar4Truth
6 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

It doesn't matter what I think. 

Way to avoid my response and not addressing my points. 

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XenoFish
4 minutes ago, Scholar4Truth said:

Way to avoid my response and not addressing my points. 

Maybe I just don't care. 

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Scholar4Truth
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Maybe I just don't care. 

Well you sure cared enough to respond and make assertions, otherwise you could have just not said anything. If your willing to respond to what someone says then yes you do seem to care in addressing it. Otherwise your a walking contradiction. 

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, Scholar4Truth said:

Well you sure cared enough to respond and make assertions, otherwise you could have just not said anything. If your willing to respond to what someone says then yes you do seem to care in addressing it. Otherwise your a walking contradiction. 

Ok.

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joc
3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Why do some people desperately want an afterlife to be true? 

Because they fear death.

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joc
2 hours ago, Scholar4Truth said:

The same question can be posed to the radical skeptic. Why are some desperate for there not being one? 

I personally am not desperate for anything.  Fear of death gives way to afterlife.  Fear of outright dying.  Fear of one's life being...over.  Fear of loss of love of someone because of death.  A lot of fear associated with death.  Kill the fear...you kill all the BS that goes along with it.  Why would birds and bees and insects and trees...and humans...procreate so much if death wasn't final?

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, joc said:

I personally am not desperate for anything.  Fear of death gives way to afterlife.  Fear of outright dying.  Fear of one's life being...over.  Fear of loss of love of someone because of death.  A lot of fear associated with death.  Kill the fear...you kill all the BS that goes along with it.  Why would birds and bees and insects and trees...and humans...procreate so much if death wasn't final?

Living this one life is more important knowing there is nothing. The idea of an afterlife devalues existence itself.

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joc
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Living this one life is more important knowing there is nothing. The idea of an afterlife devalues existence itself.

Look around at how many people are not actually 'living' this one life.  They are in either dire reflection of the past or dire anticipation of the future.  I don't think most people even know how to live.  I think they are just going through the motions.  There is only one moment...this is it.

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