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Eldorado

Student disqualified for hating Halal meat

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aztek

i was at county fair a month ago or so, upstate NY,  they sold livestock there, pretty much all cows were dirty, and skinny, but there were 4 bulls that were sold for meat, those guys were huge,  muscular,  they were laying down all  4 of them on a clean hay, and their hides looked like they were made of silk, perfectly clean and shining . like night and day compared to the rest of livestock.   

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Michelle
4 minutes ago, aztek said:

i was at county fair a month ago or so, upstate NY,  they sold livestock there, pretty much all cows were dirty, and skinny,

That makes no sense. Especially at fairs, they bring their best. But, there are individuals that need to reported for abuse. I wouldn't hesitate to report them.

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aztek
11 minutes ago, Michelle said:

That makes no sense. Especially at fairs, they bring their best. But, there are individuals that need to reported for abuse. I wouldn't hesitate to report them.

it was their best i guess, but those cows were sold for milk and breeding,  so they were not bulked up as meat bulls were,   they were reasonably well cared for,  not abused,  they were skinny like pretty much every cow i saw grazing grass on  farms, those are actually a lot dirtier than at county fair,  they just lay down in dirt, and their own urine.  you can hose them down , but they will lay down in dirt again. so no one bothers to clean them up, most of the time.

also from what i heard from farmers, they are almost always short handed,  washing them does not seem like priority. 

to be honest that was first time in my life i saw such clean bulls, i mean they did not really have to clean them so thoroughly, but i guess it depends on the farm, i also did not ask how much they were, maybe they asked so much that they had to shine them up.  

Edited by aztek
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Michelle

I've never personally seen a skinny cow. I've heard from people who go to cow auctions how bad some of them look though. It's a sad fact some people are irresponsible and cruel.

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quiXilver

Life lives by consuming life.

Be it plant, insect, fish, animal, bird, bacterial, viral...

 

Specifically Ife feeds on decaying life.

Decaying life is the sustenance of life.

The decaying life in your colon at this moment, be it, plant, insect, animal or fish, mixed with water and air, is what nourishes your experienced life process.

 

Life feeds on life.

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Phaeton80
2 hours ago, rashore said:

 

Ok, I'll flat out ask for help with this... the aspect of hunting animals and use of them within hunting. I don't got conflicts, but rather would like to learn more about this.

I think I understand a bit about the general shot/kill practice of hunting- and not ideal. I've got scratch for the hunting animals aspect.

Not being argumentative or anything, but would like to learn more about this aspect of things. I've often thought about the more farming/commercial sides of halal practices... but don't know much if anything about the hunters side of that whole coin. Particularly in relation to using hunting animals.


So Im no expert by any means, but what is it youd want to know exactly?

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hetrodoxly
16 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

Why, does it conflict with yours? Show me what you have.. Ive been the one answering questions up until now, without any clear reason.

I'v not read anything of what you claim (not that it's not true) that's why i asked for your source, the Quran says it's ok to hunt but obviously it's not going to be halal, so you can eat meat that's not halal.  

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Phaeton80
3 hours ago, hetrodoxly said:

I'v not read anything of what you claim (not that it's not true) that's why i asked for your source, the Quran says it's ok to hunt but obviously it's not going to be halal, so you can eat meat that's not halal.  


Ok, so Halal means allowed, and things are allowed or not allowed in the Qur'an, no where else. What you say here is impossible. If something is ordained in the Qur'an, it is Halal. If something is prohibited in the Qur'an, it is Haram.

If something is not allowed in the ummah which is not stated in the Qur'an, this is one of the gravest acts of Haram possible. Such a situation might arise if someting is mentioned as Haram in the Hadith, which is not grounded in the Qur'an. This is a well known phenomenon given the position of the Hadith is often falsely equated with or even elevated above the Qur'an, sometimes Muslims read and / or base their actions more on the Hadith than the Qur'an, if only for the simple fact the Hadith is more accessable, 'easier' to read. Not unlike the Talmud in Judaism. That is not to say the Hadith is wholly false, far from it, but it certainly isnt on par with the Qur'an, and should always be read using the Qur'an as a compass. Illiteracy is also still a problem in Arabic nations, a lot of Muslims have not read the Qur'an, and are dependent on others for its contents, guidence.

[16:116] But say not - for any false thing that your tongues may put forth,- "This is lawful, and this is forbidden," so as to ascribe false things to God. For those who ascribe false things to God, will never prosper ( Men are apt to create taboos for themselves, out of superstition, and often for selfish ends, and enforce them in the name of religion. Nothing can be more reprehensible).

[6:148] Those who give partners (to God) will say: "If God had wished, we should not have given partners to Him nor would our fathers; nor should we have had any taboos." So did their ancestors argue falsely, until they tasted of Our wrath. Say: "Have ye any (certain) knowledge? If so, produce it before us. Ye follow nothing but conjecture: ye do nothing but lie."

[6:149] Say: "With God is the argument that reaches home: if it had been His will, He could indeed have guided you all."

[6:150] Say: "Bring forward your witnesses to prove that God did forbid so and so." If they bring such witnesses, be not thou amongst them: Nor follow thou the vain desires of such as treat our signs as falsehoods, and such as believe not in the Hereafter: for they hold others as equal with their Guardian-Lord.

[6:151]
Say: "Come, I will rehearse what God hath (really) prohibited you from": Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which God hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.

Edited by Phaeton80
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rashore
12 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:


So Im no expert by any means, but what is it youd want to know exactly?

How hunting animals are used.

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Phaeton80
47 minutes ago, rashore said:

How hunting animals are used.


What would you like to know besides what I already described for you? Please be more specific.

Hunting animals are dogs, leopards, falcons, hawks and other beasts and birds of prey which are trained to chase wild animals and catch them for their masters, without mangling them. The game of the trained hunting animals is lawful because they do not mangle it and that of the untrained beasts and birds of prey is unlawful because they do mangle it.

The hunting-animal should be released by a Muslim or a Jew or a Christian, along with invoking the name of God. If it goes forward by itself or runs away from its master, or he forgets to invoke the name of God when releasing it, then it catches some prey and kills it, it is not to be eaten.

Edited by Phaeton80
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XenoFish

Just slap the kosher/halal label on the meat. No one will notice. If they do they are to uptight to begin with.

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hetrodoxly
2 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:


What would you like to know besides what I already described for you? Please be more specific.

Hunting animals are dogs, leopards, falcons, hawks and other beasts and birds of prey which are trained to chase wild animals and catch them for their masters, without mangling them. The game of the trained hunting animals is lawful because they do not mangle it and that of the untrained beasts and birds of prey is unlawful because they do mangle it.

The hunting-animal should be released by a Muslim or a Jew or a Christian, along with invoking the name of God. If it goes forward by itself or runs away from its master, or he forgets to invoke the name of God when releasing it, then it catches some prey and kills it, it is not to be eaten.

Can you point me to your source, thanks.

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Phaeton80
1 hour ago, hetrodoxly said:

Can you point me to your source, thanks.

 

Here is one which seems ok.. This is not one of the sources I use regularly though, cant vouch for it as a whole.

https://questionsonislam.com/question/could-you-please-give-information-about-hunting-islam

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hetrodoxly
49 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

 

Here is one which seems ok.. This is not one of the sources I use regularly though, cant vouch for it as a whole.

https://questionsonislam.com/question/could-you-please-give-information-about-hunting-islam

This contradicts what you posted , "If it has died because of shooting before the hunter reaches it, it can be eaten without the need to do anything else" also it does not say any animal used for hunting can't kill it as long as it doesn't strangle it or eat any of it themselves, it's not halal is it, just convenient for Muslims to pretend it is.

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rashore
5 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:


What would you like to know besides what I already described for you? Please be more specific.

Hunting animals are dogs, leopards, falcons, hawks and other beasts and birds of prey which are trained to chase wild animals and catch them for their masters, without mangling them. The game of the trained hunting animals is lawful because they do not mangle it and that of the untrained beasts and birds of prey is unlawful because they do mangle it.

The hunting-animal should be released by a Muslim or a Jew or a Christian, along with invoking the name of God. If it goes forward by itself or runs away from its master, or he forgets to invoke the name of God when releasing it, then it catches some prey and kills it, it is not to be eaten.

 

1 hour ago, Phaeton80 said:

 

Here is one which seems ok.. This is not one of the sources I use regularly though, cant vouch for it as a whole.

https://questionsonislam.com/question/could-you-please-give-information-about-hunting-islam

Thanks for the additional info for me to chew over.. I know a few folks that use hounds for flushing or retrieving like duck hunting or the like, and some falconers action. None of them ever have any religious rules or aspect attached to what they do, so this is a perspective I hadn't encountered before.

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Phaeton80
1 hour ago, hetrodoxly said:

This contradicts what you posted , "If it has died because of shooting before the hunter reaches it, it can be eaten without the need to do anything else" also it does not say any animal used for hunting can't kill it as long as it doesn't strangle it or eat any of it themselves, it's not halal is it, just convenient for Muslims to pretend it is.

Yes, without slaughtering / dispatching it, because it is already dead. The prayer is done at the act of shooting the weapon or releasing the hunting animals if intent is to kill with them. I dont think this contradicts what I posted. The full text of the link youre referring to:

Quote

In our day, hunting is usually performed with weapons. As we mentioned above, the hunter must utter basmala while shooting the prey, must run to it right away after shooting it and slaughter it if is not dead yet. If it has died because of shooting before the hunter reaches it, it can be eaten without the need to do anything else. (Maydani, ibid., III, 217, ff.)

Where did I say animal used for hunting cant kill?

Heres what I posted:

Quote

As I understand it one can hunt wild animals as long as they are freely able to run and evade, one can use dogs, falcons etc to hunt / retrieve..  These are trained to inflict as little damage to a prey as possible, so it can be dispatched as prescribed.

This seems generally the case, I didnt mean to imply it was not permitted to kill with the hunting animal used.

Edited by Phaeton80
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hetrodoxly
24 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

Where did I say animal used for hunting cant kill?

This is what you said.

'These are trained to inflict as little damage to a prey as possible, so it can be dispatched as prescribed'

An animal shot dead isn't bleed, how can this be halal?

Edited by hetrodoxly

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Phaeton80

Because it is.. (allowed) in the Qur'an. The definition of halal meat isnt if its been bleed out, its primarily invoking the name of God which makes it halal or not, whichever the context in which the meat was acquired. There is some dispute in this though, and I understand your confusion. What is generally accepted in religious communities isnt always firmly grounded in scripture. Enter the issue with the Hadith being equated with the Qur'an..

 

Edited by Phaeton80
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Gwynbleidd

snip

Edited by Gwynbleidd

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bmk1245

Have been lurking on this thread... It is 21st century, and we still have to oblige to some rules of  the 6th century religious cult?! Don't get me wrong, I consider all religions as cults.

Muslims do consider Jesus as a profit, right? So, I'm asking muslims (and christians, for that matter) "Because you have so little faith. Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you" move mountain of Ararat to the North. And don't get me all that bullcrap "its a metaphor", just do it - move mount Ararat!

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hetrodoxly
12 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

The definition of halal meat isnt if its been bleed out,

Why don't you just stop doing it then?

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Phaeton80

Thats wonderful gentlemen, I wish you both good luck in your endeavors.

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quiXilver

I recall the visceral, gob-smacked reaction of a vegan who read the ingredient list of the soil she had been using in her garden to grow her vegan diet...   "there's what?! in there" :cry:

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bmk1245
2 hours ago, quiXilver said:

I recall the visceral, gob-smacked reaction of a vegan who read the ingredient list of the soil she had been using in her garden to grow her vegan diet...   "there's what?! in there" :cry:

Give them "Dietary pesticides (99.99% all natural)" to read and you'll see brown pants ;)

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