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Are near-death experiences merely illusions ?

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highdesert50

We are the sum and substance of our beliefs, something that makes each of us rather unique. Yet, given this diversity there is much we share in common. This commonality and diversity is certainly explainable within the statistical context of a normal distribution more commonly known as a bell-curve. As we move from the center of curve we experience the more diverse until finally at three standard deviations from the mean we begin to see the exotic if not miraculous. Indeed, the mathematics allows for these extremes without compromising natural order. I suspect that there is still much to discovered three standard deviations from the mean.

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XenoFish

NDE's are just the effect of the brain shutting down. Dead is dead. 

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RabidMongoose
2 hours ago, UM-Bot said:

Some patients who 'died' for a short period have reported things that they couldn't possibly have known about.

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/news/329817/are-near-death-experiences-merely-illusions

It is notoriously difficult to investigate consciousness because we simply dont have the technology to collect quantitative evidence.

When it comes to the more unusual experiences we go through in life they exist, a large number of people have them, and it includes myself too. Trying to construct new models of consciousness and reality is difficult when the only information to hand is qualitative. Its confounded further by the lack of means to test such frameworks and a fervent scepticism trying to discredit all alternative views that run contrary to the predominant group think.

Physics has already proven how most people see reality is wrong. With 95% of the population they are wondering around in a delusional state believing they are living in a mechanistic, deterministic, reductionist, Newtonian universe. They dont even understand the implications of General Relativity let alone what quantum mechanics means when it comes to the nature of consciousness and reality.

One thing I like to point out is that physics has already proven experimentality that other types of causation exist beyond the traditional linear cause and effect. There is probabilistic causation, non-linear causation (also called bi-directional causation), and retro causality where the present outcome determines its past causes.

Focusing on non-linear causation, that is when two events separated in space (but not in time) cause each other. Such non-locality is proven in quantum mechanics, but it doesnt take a genius to spot it occurring in reality at our level too. Just ask a stock broker or weather scientist or engineer.

Religion should be viewed as an implicit (rather than an explicit) guide to the nature of reality. They have a deeper understanding of the bi-directional causation structuring reality so try to teach a pattern of living. Knowing that what you do here affects elsewhere in the rest of reality.

Enjoy the pleasures of reality, help others do the same, and move on from any hate or negativity. The universe sends all of that right back at you. You find yourself attract pleasure seekers who want you to help you enjoy life too, and who dont get bogged down with any hate or negativity.

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spartan max2

These are good exampels, I'm just too cynical to think that they didn't somehow subconsciously see the quarter in the medical equipment or shoe on the roof earlier, so it then ended up in their NDE.

 

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bison

The man who said he saw the coin while in an 'out-of body' state was brought in unconscious, and virtually dead. The coin was atop an instrument cabinet eight feet above the floor...

It seems very unlikely that the woman would or could have been on the ledge of the hospital roof before the incident, and seen the red shoe. 

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Desertrat56
2 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

These are good exampels, I'm just too cynical to think that they didn't somehow subconsciously see the quarter in the medical equipment or shoe on the roof earlier, so it then ended up in their NDE.

 

How?  How did an old man being brought into a surgery room lying on his back on a gurney subconsciously see a quarter on top of a piece of equipment that was 8 feet high?  And do you think the woman who saw the shoe went on the roof before her surgery? 

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Tatetopa
2 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

These are good exampels, I'm just too cynical to think that they didn't somehow subconsciously see the quarter in the medical equipment or shoe on the roof earlier, so it then ended up in their NDE.

They descriptions are of events that seem impossible.

A question that comes to my mind is the truthfulness of the stories. 

Are they fabricated as proof to convince people because they do describe impossible events?

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XenoFish

The brain still registers information until brain death. So a patient may either be unconsciously (duh) hearing a conversation and "creating" a memory or they're lying. 

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spartan max2
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

How?  How did an old man being brought into a surgery room lying on his back on a gurney subconsciously see a quarter on top of a piece of equipment that was 8 feet high?  And do you think the woman who saw the shoe went on the roof before her surgery? 

I agree if the story is completely accurate then it's amazing.

I have always said that NDEs are the strongest support towards an afterlife out there.

Like I said I'm just cynical, historically there have been countless stories of miracles by saints, ectoplasm coming out of psychics etc. That have all been fraudulent or self delusions.

The stories are a nice place for hope but just not enough to make me think an afterlife is real.

 

Edited by spartan max2
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XenoFish
13 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I have always said that NDEs are the strongest support towards an afterlife out there.

That's pure wishful thinking.

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spartan max2
8 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

That's pure wishful thinking.

Strongest as in out of all the "evidence" people use for an afterlife (ghost, intelligent design, etc). NDEs are the closest to valid out of the list.

 

 

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XenoFish
23 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Strongest as in out of all the "evidence" people use for an afterlife (ghost, intelligent design, etc). NDEs are the closest to valid out of the list.

 

 

Speaking only for myself. They don't even come close to being proof. 

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Jodie.Lynne
7 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

It is notoriously difficult to investigate consciousness because we simply dont have the technology to collect quantitative evidence.

THIS ^^^

We have no way of knowing how much the subject assumed, extrapolated, intuited, or just plain guessed about the things going on around them. And just because one is dying, or "dead" briefly, doesn't mean that the senses aren't functioning to some extent.

And I contend that if someone believes something, with every fibre of their being, devoutly in an afterlife of some sort, then their subconscious will supply the expected imagery and words that one is "certain" they will see and hear.

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papageorge1
11 hours ago, UM-Bot said:

Some patients who 'died' for a short period have reported things that they couldn't possibly have known about.

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/news/329817/are-near-death-experiences-merely-illusions

One important thing about these stories is that if accepted they show how dramatically incomplete the materialist understanding of consciousness and the operation of the senses must be. Stories like these are though consistent with the esoteric understanding that at extreme trauma often leading to death, the astral body separates from the physical body. The astral body has its own senses and can hover near the body giving the person a perspective not consistent with the physical eyes.

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XenoFish
4 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

One important thing about these stories is that if accepted they show how dramatically incomplete the materialist understanding of consciousness and the operation of the senses must be. Stories like these are though consistent with the esoteric understanding that at extreme trauma often leading to death, the astral body separates from the physical body. The astral body has its own senses and can hover near the body giving the person a perspective not consistent with the physical eyes.

You mean back when people had very little to zero knowledge of how the human body worked, and no idea what psychology was. Yeah, win for your team.:rolleyes:

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papageorge1
4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

The brain still registers information until brain death. So a patient may either be unconsciously (duh) hearing a conversation and "creating" a memory or they're lying. 

 

The main point of the OP article is to challenge that view. These patients 'saw' things nobody in the room knew about and were not in range of their physical eyes. 

Seems like they would have better things to do than lie after an experience like that.

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papageorge1
Just now, XenoFish said:

You mean back when people had very little to zero knowledge of how the human body worked, and no idea what psychology was. Yeah, win for your team.:rolleyes:

No, these are even astute people living today going further than the physical-only view. 

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, papageorge1 said:

 

The main point of the OP article is to challenge that view. These patients 'saw' things nobody in the room knew about and were not in range of their physical eyes. 

Seems like they would have better things to do than lie after an experience like that.

Not really. People like attention. So people will lie about anything. Even make up stories about NDE's and plenty of paranormal junk. Stories aren't evidence. 

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XenoFish
Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, papageorge1 said:

No, these are even astute people living today going further than the physical-only view. 

Ah, con men. Got it. People out to make a buck with poorly written books. 

Edited by XenoFish
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papageorge1
2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Not really. People like attention. So people will lie about anything. Even make up stories about NDE's and plenty of paranormal junk. Stories aren't evidence. 

If you read the article, lying couldn't explain why they were correct. The lying theory is sad desperation to explain that away.

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, papageorge1 said:

If you read the article, lying couldn't explain why they were correct. The lying theory is sad desperation to explain that away.

Yeah, and even when we are unconscious we still hear things. Things that go right to the subconscious. I'm not convinced. Plus false memories, brain damage, probably a bunch of other reason I don't care about. This is all nonsense. Don't worry George. One day, just like all of us. You'll get to have that last dream before everything turns into a pile of decaying matter. Then poof no you, no me, no one. Gone. You won't be a ghost, you won't exist in any spiritual plane. You'll be just a fading memory. Until even that is nothing. 

Have a nice day.

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Desertrat56
13 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

You mean back when people had very little to zero knowledge of how the human body worked, and no idea what psychology was. Yeah, win for your team.:rolleyes:

Are you sure?  Is psychology more than a fringe science yet?  I have not seen it.

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papageorge1
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Yeah, and even when we are unconscious we still hear things. Things that go right to the subconscious. I'm not convinced. Plus false memories, brain damage, probably a bunch of other reason I don't care about. This is all nonsense. Don't worry George. One day, just like all of us. You'll get to have that last dream before everything turns into a pile of decaying matter. Then poof no you, no me, no one. Gone. You won't be a ghost, you won't exist in any spiritual plane. You'll be just a fading memory. Until even that is nothing. 

Have a nice day.

Man, Xeno, seriously you need a new hobby when you expose that kind of bitterness to some interesting evidence. 

Edited by papageorge1
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XenoFish
1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

Are you sure?  Is psychology more than a fringe science yet?  I have not seen it.

It's a soft science not a fringe science. A fringe science is some idiot spending way too much money on trying to prove telepathy is real. It's a pathetic waste of effort and a joke.

Especially when we have instant thought to thought communication through the internet and our phones. Everything you've read is someone else's thoughts. Oooh, mystical, magical, woo-woo.

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