Are near-death experiences merely illusions ?

[psyche101]

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

I certainly believe my conclusions to be logical. You are free to your own of course.

Logic doesn't lend itself to beliefs, and yours are not logical. They are regurgitation of old superstitions. What on earth is logical about refusing to let go of old worthless information? 

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

And I feel the evidence suggests these people know things that they didn't learn through normal means.

Witnessed or experienced. Know is really the wrong word. Too lazy to attempt to understand such happenings, many simply default to old superstitions. That's not an answer at all. 

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

The whole point of the OP article was to say it is not unclear signs like butterflies or birds but actually specific real world details that they could not have reasonably learned through normal means. The latter is a much more impressive thing.

Right, and who verified these claims? How are they more valid than the bird and butterfly imaginings? How is the same zealous grasp at answers to grief not at play with regards to those anecdotes? Reading something on the Internet isn't a sure way to determine veracity is it now. 

[Habitat]

38 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

The quest for greater knowledge, firming understanding of processes that affect our lives and challenge to superstitions undermining science. 

What is your personal need to coerce others into positions of ignorance based on if not ego? 

I think that about 95% of your argumentation is in falsely representing where your real motives lie. The only quest you are engaged in, is a quest to convince yourself, firm up your prejudices, and  displace doubts, it hasn't worked, or you'd be long gone.

[Dradan]

Well, if those stories are true, then its proof that this is the real deal. You cant see a shoe laying on top of the roof on a building, if you are laying in your bed with your eyes closed. But, i dont see a source for these claims, so im not sure if i want to believe them?

Edited August 21, 2019 by Ultimatium

[psyche101]

1 hour ago, Habitat said:

I think that about 95% of your argumentation is in falsely representing where your real motives lie.

What motives? 

I take it Carlin is on the imaginary team too? 

1 hour ago, Habitat said:

The only quest you are engaged in, is a quest to convince yourself, firm up your prejudices, and  displace doubts,

I have no doubts, my prejudices are well founded. There's a reason I accept the explanations from science over your inane mystic rantings and ridiculous tales of the great morse code office in the sky. Pretty much the entire world is on your imaginary opposing team as it seems the larger majority have no confidence in your whacky imagination. 

1 hour ago, Habitat said:

it hasn't worked, or you'd be long gone.

Why? 

Do you think I have some belief in every subject I discuss? Do you? Does anyone? Do you think a skeptical forum was created to please ignorance on every single subject? 

You just don't see the incredibly obvious irony when you ask that question do you? You look for excuses to stalk posters, your Walker stalkers, your imaginary team, dead set, its wierd how you follow people around begging them to plead ignorance. Very strange behaviour that. 

When you say such pointless things, have you not noticed that all see it as you projecting your own doubts and fears onto others? You're not convincing anyone but yourself. What do you feel you are gaining by continuing to play the village idiot? Genuine question. 

[Habitat]

6 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I have no doubts, my prejudices are well founded

A person who says he has no doubts, is a bullshifter.

[psyche101]

4 minutes ago, Habitat said:

A person who says he has no doubts, is a bullshifter.

You think I have some belief that Roswell is real? Yowies? Ghosts? Batsquatch? I have discussed all of those subjects. They are as convincing as your mystics pointing at the great morse code office in the sky. I see your vinegarey contributions on varied subjects too. Are you saying that you have doubts about every subject you post in? 

[Habitat]

6 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

You think I have some belief that Roswell is real? Yowies? Ghosts? Batsquatch? I have discussed all of those subjects. They are as convincing as your mystics pointing at the great morse code office in the sky. I see your vinegarey contributions on varied subjects too. Are you saying that you have doubts about every subject you post in? 

Poor argument. You do appear to have a problem seeing the middle ground between having no doubt, and  having doubts about everything. In your case, claiming to have no doubts about what are great unknowns, is just pretentious bullschit.

[psyche101]

4 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Poor argument.

How so? And why can't you answer the question? 

We all know the answer to that one don't we. 

4 minutes ago, Habitat said:

You do appear to have a problem seeing the middle ground between having no doubt, and  having doubts about everything. In your case, claiming to have no doubts about what are great unknowns, is just pretentious bullschit.

Your thinking is too old to understand where I'm coming from. Science is a constant middle ground, flexible regarding actual proofs. Your views are just rehashed religious views on a twisted personal basis with a preference for certain superstitions. Nothing new there, and nothing compelling. Just another cranky old person imagining a direct link to the other side. 

Ohhhhhhh...... So compelling...

[Habitat]

8 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Ohhhhhhh...... So compelling...

There is a compelling need to honour the truth, and that requires admitting what we, collective humanity, don't know, not cook up fake claims of "settled science" where there is none. Or be what you are, a pretender. That is why you thrash around in anger, you want the truth to conform to you, rather than the obvious need for the opposite.

[eight bits]

Habbie really likes it when I use this word, so here goes: the premise of this thread is pathetic.

Imagine the scene: Joe, the hospital maintenance person, is asked by one of the medical staff to go get a ladder and check the top of the equipment for a quarter.

Joe: A quarter what?

Staff: A quarter, the coin, two bits, ...

Joe: Oh.

Joe gets the ladder and ascends, thinking what of this request? And now, there he is atop the ladder, and he has a command decision to make: does he humor the staffer who's sent him on this quest, or does he disappoint him or her? Joe's a mensch.

Joe: Oh, look, somebody did leave a quarter up here.

But no good deed goes unpunished.

Staff: Great! This means we survive bodily death! Bring me that quarter which is a witness to our eternal life!

Joe mimes picking up a quarter, and places his hand in his pocket, where a benevolent God has placed several coins, including some quarters. Joe descends the ladder, hands the quarter to the staffer.

Staff: We're going to be viral on the internet, Joe!

Joe smiles and saunters off, 25 cents poorer, but assured of internet fame.

----

Hey, last night at Walmart I found a penny on the self-checkout kiosk. Can I go viral, too?

David Hume would have a field day with this thread. Except that he wrote about people telling tales about fascinating miracle-non-events, not tales about somebody maybe finding a quarter where you wouldn't expect to find one. Ditto the shoe on the roof. There are Joes everywhere, and it's the Joes of this world whose jobs involve climbing ladders and inspecting roofs.

[psyche101]

2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

There is a compelling need to honour the truth,

Your imagination is your truth. Not anybody else's. Like most I'd guess you struggle with grief and turn to belief to cope. It might get you through your day, but when you preach your whacky ideas in your typical belligerent fashion, you invite challenge and as a result just lose credibility and quite frankly appear to have lost your marbles lately. 

2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

and that requires admitting what we, collective humanity, don't know,

What you don't know is the correct statement. 

What you refuse to acknowledge and what you childishly attack from a distance. 

You have shown yourself to be ignorant of modern discovery. You have no credibility at all regarding gathered knowledge, you appear to be about 40 or 50 years behind the current edge. 

2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

not cook up fake claims of "settled science" where there is none.

Again, your inability to illustrate that with regards to the physics presented entirely erase your credibility regarding this subject. Your like an 11th century alchemist walking into a modern chemistry class. Floundering about hurling insults has only shown just how inadequate and empty your protest is. 

2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Or be what you are, a pretender.

Pretending about what? Your ideas are old superstitions molded into a whacky personal religion complete with fire and brimstone. What on earth makes you think anyone should consider your rants as anything more than just that? You honestly think some crazy mystic nonsense rambling and stories of a great morse code office in the sky are in some way compelling? Or do you think your acidic charm is irresistible? That should supersede unbiased experiments and gathered knowledge? 

2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

That is why you thrash around in anger, you want the truth to conform to you, rather than the obvious need for the opposite.

I'm not the one starting out with predetermined conclusions. Show evidence for your claims and I'd be more than happy to look at it unbiased. 

Oh, that's right, you can't can you. We all need to accept ignorance and hail to you modern mystic the great Habitat who is blessed with the gift of a direct line to the great morse code office in the sky. 

Get over yourself. 

[spartan max2]

24 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Habbie really likes it when I use this word, so here goes: the premise of this thread is pathetic.

Imagine the scene: Joe, the hospital maintenance person, is asked by one of the medical staff to go get a ladder and check the top of the equipment for a quarter.

Joe: A quarter what?

Staff: A quarter, the coin, two bits, ...

Joe: Oh.

Joe gets the ladder and ascends, thinking what of this request? And now, there he is atop the ladder, and he has a command decision to make: does he humor the staffer who's sent him on this quest, or does he disappoint him or her? Joe's a mensch.

Joe: Oh, look, somebody did leave a quarter up here.

But no good deed goes unpunished.

Staff: Great! This means we survive bodily death! Bring me that quarter which is a witness to our eternal life!

Joe mimes picking up a quarter, and places his hand in his pocket, where a benevolent God has placed several coins, including some quarters. Joe descends the ladder, hands the quarter to the staffer.

Staff: We're going to be viral on the internet, Joe!

Joe smiles and saunters off, 25 cents poorer, but assured of internet fame.

----

Hey, last night at Walmart I found a penny on the self-checkout kiosk. Can I go viral, too?

David Hume would have a field day with this thread. Except that he wrote about people telling tales about fascinating miracle-non-events, not tales about somebody maybe finding a quarter where you wouldn't expect to find one. Ditto the shoe on the roof. There are Joes everywhere, and it's the Joes of this world whose jobs involve climbing ladders and inspecting roofs.

It was the hospice physician.

According to the story the old man also dated the year of the quarter at 85

Edited August 21, 2019 by spartan max2

[Habitat]

3 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Get over yourself. 

contrary to your idea that I am imagining things because of grief, it is you that has failed to come to terms with a family situation involving your mother and JW's, and whatever damage all that did to the family, which has led you to think you can chuck schitt at anyone who even allows the slightest latitude to religious ideas. That is your narrow, ignorant perspective. it is a bit like having a drunk in the family, who wrecked the harmony of the home, and instead of looking at the situation realistically, you go on a crusade against the demon drink, as the entire cause of the problems. Wrong answer. Ditto your attitude to religion, disentangle yourself from the accidents of personal history, and quit the carry on that would have people believe that you have solved the mysteries that have intrigued humans, forever. All you've done is make yourself look silly, to my eyes, because I happen to know, that you are hopelessly wrong.

[Habitat]

27 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Habbie really likes it when I use this word, so here goes: the premise of this thread is pathetic.

Imagine the scene: Joe, the hospital maintenance person, is asked by one of the medical staff to go get a ladder and check the top of the equipment for a quarter.

Joe: A quarter what?

Staff: A quarter, the coin, two bits, ...

Joe: Oh.

Joe gets the ladder and ascends, thinking what of this request? And now, there he is atop the ladder, and he has a command decision to make: does he humor the staffer who's sent him on this quest, or does he disappoint him or her? Joe's a mensch.

Joe: Oh, look, somebody did leave a quarter up here.

But no good deed goes unpunished.

Staff: Great! This means we survive bodily death! Bring me that quarter which is a witness to our eternal life!

Joe mimes picking up a quarter, and places his hand in his pocket, where a benevolent God has placed several coins, including some quarters. Joe descends the ladder, hands the quarter to the staffer.

Staff: We're going to be viral on the internet, Joe!

Joe smiles and saunters off, 25 cents poorer, but assured of internet fame.

----

Hey, last night at Walmart I found a penny on the self-checkout kiosk. Can I go viral, too?

David Hume would have a field day with this thread. Except that he wrote about people telling tales about fascinating miracle-non-events, not tales about somebody maybe finding a quarter where you wouldn't expect to find one. Ditto the shoe on the roof. There are Joes everywhere, and it's the Joes of this world whose jobs involve climbing ladders and inspecting roofs.

Put more succinctly, your attitude is that any and every reported incident that purports to go toward giving credibility to "woo", involves lying by at least some party. And the lies explain the incident, as a mundane happening. What a cynical view, that is. And a wrong one ! You probably didn't notice that I made no judgement about the status of NDE's though.

[+Desertrat56]

14 hours ago, Habitat said:

I have all the proof I need, that the "beyond" is real, and a hundred-fold. Otherwise you would not see me here. I am not easy to convince. Were it otherwise, I would be firmly in the "I don't know" camp, and not bother discussing it further. I would not be endlessly trotting out negative opinions on the subject, something that people don't do, unless there is an acceptance at some level, that there is something important at stake. But they are having trouble disentangling what that "something" is, from the propaganda they were fed at an impressionable age. The best way to do that, is just admit the obvious truth, that they really don't know the status of it. The rest will take care of itself. But if they think they can safely judge, on the information available, what the real situation may be, there is no relief in prospect. You won't find the "killer" evidence, but it may find you, though I doubt it ever will, if you fancy yourself as a fit judge, without that evidence.

I didn't understand most of what you said.  I have proof for myself as well but I don't adhere to any religion to tell me what that proof means.  I make my own choices and expect others to make theirs.  I don't care to convince anyone of anything except to respect everyone's experiences and interpretations of those experiences.  What you said before triggered my disappointment and frustration in people who claim to Know something that someone told them or that they read in a book, not something they experienced themselves.  If they had a real experience, then that is where they should be talking from, not from some religious doctrine that makes very little sense and has no foundation in reality. 

 

[+Desertrat56]

14 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I did say some... I've seen atheists post links to Southern Baptist church websites, time after time which say killing gays and others is ok. That kind of anger/hate often turns to violence.

That's all I'm saying. Hate often leads to violence. Even though they'd say they were doing good in doing so.

Were not some of the enforced gay-fixing camps not Southern Baptist, and some Catholic? I'll check, but if they would restrain a gay person, they'd restrain a possessed person also.

Edit: I did find this...

http://www.bpnews.net/50523/exorcists-in-demand--baptists-discuss-demonic-activity

Which says...

So, nonChristians can be possessed, according to Baptist theology. They dont practice exercism though, but they will "liberate" people under demonic influence.

Gay-fixing is completely different than exorcism.  And I don't think Southern Baptist consider it demon possession, they consider it sin or having a sinful heart that must be punished until it is cleansed.  I did mislead with the excommunication comment, but most baptist churches I ever was forced to attend as a child would not even accept spanking children as that indicated anger which was a sin.  Maybe I was lucky and never met a violent preacher who insisted on physical punishment.

[papageorge1]

6 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Logic doesn't lend itself to beliefs, and yours are not logical. They are regurgitation of old superstitions. What on earth is logical about refusing to let go of old worthless information? 

Witnessed or experienced. Know is really the wrong word. Too lazy to attempt to understand such happenings, many simply default to old superstitions. That's not an answer at all. 

Right, and who verified these claims? How are they more valid than the bird and butterfly imaginings? How is the same zealous grasp at answers to grief not at play with regards to those anecdotes? Reading something on the Internet isn't a sure way to determine veracity is it now. 

Well to me the accumulation of all these stories is an impressive thing. 

I think the attitude you display is a common modern one that 'science' is to do away with all these old superstitious and religious relics with a new modern 'scientific' explanation. When modern intelligent people claim real world cases suggesting that science has a long way to go and that there may indeed be some reality behind these old superstitious and religious beliefs, there is a natural resistance by the scientism types that is not in keeping with an objective scientific attitude.

[XenoFish]

Suggest a experiment that could validate NDE's. 

Edited August 21, 2019 by XenoFish

[spartan max2]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Suggest a experiment that could validate NDE's. 

The Aware study tried to do a thing similar to the quarter story. Of having a "visual target" that can only be seen from if you're floating I guess.

But it's just too difficult to get a proper sample of the population.

 

"Of the 2,060 cardiac arrests during the study, 140 patients survived and could be interviewed for the study. Of these, 101 patients had detailed interviews, which identified 9 patients who had an NDE. Of the 9 NDErs, two had detailed memories with awareness of the physical environment. One NDEr's experience was verified as accurate; the other was too ill for an in-depth interview. These two NDEs occurred in non-acute areas where no visual target was present, so further verification of visual awareness was not possible. Further study and, perhaps, a reassessment of the methodology and goals of the study are warranted"

 

https://iands.org/news/news/front-page-news/1060-aware-study-initial-results-are-published.html

Edited August 21, 2019 by spartan max2

[XenoFish]

2 out of 9 isn't good enough.

[eight bits]

6 hours ago, Habitat said:

Put more succinctly, your attitude is that any and every reported incident that purports to go toward giving credibility to "woo", involves lying by at least some party. And the lies explain the incident, as a mundane happening. What a cynical view, that is. And a wrong one ! You probably didn't notice that I made no judgement about the status of NDE's though.

Put succinctly, one guy said he found a quarter after another guy predicted he would.

Carnival fortune tellers manage better than that. Among discussable woo, remote viewers claim the same sort of feat and don't pretend it is evidence that people survive death, More traditional wooers attribute similar achievements to healthy clairvoyants, and at least one reasonable person who frequents the dream boards here at UM sincerely believes that healthy people can do such things by astral projection.

That's not a "cynical" view. Those are the facts.

Now, if you tote up all the stories of quasi-feats told by fortune tellers, soi disant clairvoyants, astral projectors, spirit mediums, angel-contactors,  ... (no offense to anybody I've omitted), - oh crap, I forgot people who didn't actually die - what are the odds that none of them would eventually hit upon the wherabouts of some lost quarter or shoe?

Oh, hell, the carny will pull the quarter out of your nose.

Beyond that, assuming that there really was an errant quarter and shoe, somebody knew that (whoever lost or placed the quarter and or shoe). What one person can know, many people can know. Degrees of separation is a  searchable term. There are no controls in these incidents. You cannot say that the informants did not have natural knowledge of the "unusual" facts, because assuming they are facts, then anybody and any number of people could know those facts.

And, oh yes, people do lie about this stuff. And they spin, too, which is relevant to un-cross-examined statements of all kinds. For example,

6 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

It was the hospice physician.

Yeah. Physicians do so many menial tasks when there are staff paid to do them instead. Management theory suggests that a physicians' time is better spent helping patients, as opposed to, say, looking for loose change atop medical instruments.

I stand by my estimate of who is more likely to have performed the actual search, based on the evidence presented here, and a priori knowledge of typical  work practices in hierarchical organizations.

Edited August 21, 2019 by eight bits

[Habitat]

2 hours ago, eight bits said:

Put succinctly, one guy said he found a quarter after another guy predicted he would.

Carnival fortune tellers manage better than that. Among discussable woo, remote viewers claim the same sort of feat and don't pretend it is evidence that people survive death, More traditional wooers attribute similar achievements to healthy clairvoyants, and at least one reasonable person who frequents the dream boards here at UM sincerely believes that healthy people can do such things by astral projection.

That's not a "cynical" view. Those are the facts.

Now, if you tote up all the stories of quasi-feats told by fortune tellers, soi disant clairvoyants, astral projectors, spirit mediums, angel-contactors,  ... (no offense to anybody I've omitted), - oh crap, I forgot people who didn't actually die - what are the odds that none of them would eventually hit upon the wherabouts of some lost quarter or shoe?

Oh, hell, the carny will pull the quarter out of your nose.

Beyond that, assuming that there really was an errant quarter and shoe, somebody knew that (whoever lost or placed the quarter and or shoe). What one person can know, many people can know. Degrees of separation is a  searchable term. There are no controls in these incidents. You cannot say that the informants did not have natural knowledge of the "unusual" facts, because assuming they are facts, then anybody and any number of people could know those facts.

And, oh yes, people do lie about this stuff. And they spin, too, which is relevant to un-cross-examined statements of all kinds. For example,

Yeah. Physicians do so many menial tasks when there are staff paid to do them instead. Management theory suggests that a physicians' time is better spent helping patients, as opposed to, say, looking for loose change atop medical instruments.

I stand by my estimate of who is more likely to have performed the actual search, based on the evidence presented here, and a priori knowledge of typical  work practices in hierarchical organizations.

You really are desperate to believe these things in the negative, others are desperate to believe the same things, in the positive. I am not in either of those outlier camps. The wise man has suspended judgement, pending better information. I have seen the better information, albeit not transferable. But, had I not, I would feel no need to rush to any judgement, one way or the other, why the Team here feel such a compulsion, ought to be something they interrogate themselves about, but alas, people in a state of possession don't do that, they are fixated. All of which points to some heavy duty internal conflict. If they really were convinced "woo" is all *****, they'd not bother. After all, what would be at stake ?

[+DieChecker]

19 hours ago, psyche101 said:

81% left over, and as I mentioned the 9% isn't filtered for kooks, misinterpretation and exaggeration. The true number is smaller. 

I'd say that leaves a lot of wiggle room for interpretation. Why do so few experience this phenomenon if its a human condition? 

Anything genuinely anomalous will stand out regardless. Hallucinations aren't considered so special when not part of the death process. It seems ridiculous to elevate that due to superstition.

Ridiculous, but worth investigating??

Lots of ideas were dismissed at first. Doesn't mean it will turn out to be supernatural, but dismissing something due to preconceptions is generally frowned upon.

Hallucinations can have many causes. Physical, mental, emotional... spiritual?

If 10% of people with heart conditions reported pain in their feet, you can bet it would be investigated vigorously. 

[+DieChecker]

8 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Gay-fixing is completely different than exorcism.  And I don't think Southern Baptist consider it demon possession, they consider it sin or having a sinful heart that must be punished until it is cleansed.  I did mislead with the excommunication comment, but most baptist churches I ever was forced to attend as a child would not even accept spanking children as that indicated anger which was a sin.  Maybe I was lucky and never met a violent preacher who insisted on physical punishment.

Regardless, I'm pointing at the possibility of restraining someone physically for religious reasons. It seems that if one is happening the other is at least possible.

Edited August 21, 2019 by DieChecker

[VastLand]

"“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?”" -Dumbledore (Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, by J.K. Rowling)           haha 

Science can at least validate that life's motion is directly influenced by light, even down to chemical reactions. Biology claims that the "Pineal Gland", who produces "Melatonin", which itself is responsible for the dream state, and coordination of your metabolism, is directly programmed by the circadian cycles of the sun. The "Pineal Gland" of course, needing sunlight in order to produce "Melatonin". It does not take an extensive browser search to find these things out.

Inside of your head, where you can conceptualize images in your head, through imagination, is a "photo" if you will, that can be in motion, quite literally generated by "Photons" which traverse neural networks as electricity, and "fire" in synapses, emitting bio-photons, that are measurably existent.

Interestingly enough, there is a lizard, called the Tuatara, who has a literal, and complete, third eye, on the top of his head. 

Giving a bit of wonder, we can ask, does the human brain actually have a third eye, in our heads? as we are told that we do, by ancestors.

It is possible that the bio-photons and electrical signals may be giving an actual image to the "retina" if you will, of this third eye? Is this why we see the images we imagine?

Light, gives warmth, energy, and after all, motion, to matter. We observe that quite simply when Water absorbs photons, and enters reaction, to form a higher state of matter, vapor, a gas; or when metal absorbs photons, the stored heat begins to expand molecules, causing the metal to expand. Complacent matter, to expanding matter, or rising matter, is indeed motion, is it not?

Light brings life then, as the heart would not beat without the electric charge, that first "spark plug" jolt, which was fed by the original absorption of light, that entered the stone, and the plant, to produce energy.

Light brings life; life, and consciousness is what we call existence, then light must be the existed; the existing light brought an image into your mind. 

The whole world, we call earth, could not live/exist as a dimension, or realm, set apart from the universe, without a star, to warm her core, shield her sky, fix her in place, give her motion. 

My final opinion, based on my personal philosophy, the realm in your mind, exists purely of light, and is perceived by your eye, and it exists...

Perhaps your energy form, inside your body, throughout the whole neural network as electricity, throughout the whole bloodstream and heart, as "electromagnetism", and throughout all your muscles, synapses, and blood, as "bio-photons", is quite literally experiencing, and "transponding", into the realm conceived of your mind, given motion by light.

I respect cheer  and love you all.