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Are near-death experiences merely illusions ?


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On 8/20/2019 at 11:44 AM, papageorge1 said:

Well my beliefs come little from my own experiences but from consideration of the experiences of others. 

Then in my opinion you live more in your imagination than in the world around you.  Do you not have people to talk to face to face, things to do that get you out of the house?

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1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

Then in my opinion you live more in your imagination than in the world around you.  Do you not have people to talk to face to face, things to do that get you out of the house?

What the? I lead a normal life. All I was saying is that I personally have not had a lot of paranormal type experiences so I listen to and consider those experiences of others.

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7 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

What the? I lead a normal life. All I was saying is that I personally have not had a lot of paranormal type experiences so I listen to and consider those experiences of others.

OK.  That is not what I got from your post, I got that you just believe other's anecdotes because you want to.  You used the broad term, so as a literal minded person I interpreted it that way. 

I have lots of what some call paranormal experiences so it is hard for me to understand someone who hasn't or has not noticed.  Often what is termed paranormal is not paranormal, it is just noticing something that most people don't notice since we are more then the sum of our physical "parts" and perceptions.  Some people go to extreme lengths to deny this and you stick in there and don't balk at the vitriol that is spewed, which is commendable.  I tend towards skepticism even though I have had unexplainable experiences.  There are a lot of people who hoax this kind of thing and some who just want desperately to get attention.
 

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7 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

OK.  That is not what I got from your post, I got that you just believe other's anecdotes because you want to.  You used the broad term, so as a literal minded person I interpreted it that way. 

That's exactly what he repeated.

I'm a bit lost here, what changed?

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I have lots of what some call paranormal experiences so it is hard for me to understand someone who hasn't or has not noticed.  Often what is termed paranormal is not paranormal, it is just noticing something that most people don't notice

Are you referring to claimed direct experience or signs that indicate support for a certain belief?

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since we are more then the sum of our physical "parts" and perceptions.  Some people go to extreme lengths to deny this

You've got to be kidding right?

Deny what? Anecdotes? That's all there is.

For all the BS about the non physical, only religious people can actually define the concept as heaven. A story who's origins are human, not observation. "Spiritual" people blather on about continuing existence, which is in reality a hand me down tale through the ages modified to suit certain tastes. Show me the money. Talk is cheap.

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and you stick in there and don't balk at the vitriol that is spewed, which is commendable. 

What tripe 

When presented with real evidence he runs from a thread. He does not and behind his convictions when they are clearly broken. I asked him about Chakras a few weeks ago. He knew nothing of the original tradition and posted some nonsense made up about 40 years ago in California on an effort to market it. Then he exited the thread. 

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I tend towards skepticism even though I have had unexplainable experiences. 

To you perhaps. Superstitious interpretation keeps such instances mysterious by default. IMHO.

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There are a lot of people who hoax this kind of thing and some who just want desperately to get attention.
 

A need some people believe cultural fables are actually possible answers. That's another category altogether. There's no dishonesty there, stubborn and ignorant but not deliberately deceptive.

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48 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

For all the BS about the non physical, only religious people can actually define the concept as heaven. A story who's origins are human, not observation. "Spiritual" people blather on about continuing existence, which is in reality a hand me down tale through the ages modified to suit certain tastes. Show me the money. Talk is cheap.

I think we have to look at other areas where investigation HAS been done scientifically and techniques used to produce results have shown to be much, much greater than chance. 

As I have indicated in other threads, some Remote Viewing has rigid protocols which mean that the targets are unknown to the viewers and to the scientists studying them. From those investigations it would seem the nature of time and space is not what we think it is in orthodox science but more like it is in quantum science. It would seem that everything exists all at once in the now and it is all somehow accessible by our minds (not our brains).

Although we are considering NDEs in this thread, I dont think we can be so limited as to consider only this when there is so much more if we look at the data and the results of the early RV experiments. These were done by Russell Targ and Hal Puthoff at Stanford Research Institute and the 'hits' by Ingo Swann and others were far greater than chance.

NDE's reported by many have certain features which are repeated by people of different faiths, cultures, and educational systems across the world, so it is not a 'belief system' thing, but something else.  Those people who do not accept that NDE's are what is truly being experienced by the folks who 'die', have to explain how other techniques such as RV and out-of-body experiences report there are other realities which they can access.

Occult and Eastern religions have been documenting the death process for hundreds of years and books of the dead which give details of the bardoh process have been produced.

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7 minutes ago, ocpaul20 said:

I think we have to look at other areas where investigation HAS been done scientifically and techniques used to produce results have shown to be much, much greater than chance. 

That's has not been done. Wild rehashed meta-analysis supported by opinion is not a genuine result. It's just manipulation of data. That's been well illustrated as well.

7 minutes ago, ocpaul20 said:

As I have indicated in other threads, some Remote Viewing has rigid protocols which mean that the targets are unknown to the viewers and to the scientists studying them. From those investigations it would seem the nature of time and space is not what we think it is in orthodox science but more like it is in quantum science. It would seem that everything exists all at once in the now and it is all somehow accessible by our minds (not our brains).

And project Stargate proved it to be bunk by wasting 20 million on it, trying to get reliable data 

Even with that level of backing, the idea failed.

7 minutes ago, ocpaul20 said:

Although we are considering NDEs in this thread, I dont think we can be so limited as to consider only this when there is so much more if we look at the data and the results of the early RV experiments. These were done by Russell Targ and Hal Puthoff at Stanford Research Institute and the 'hits' by Ingo Swann and others were far greater than chance.

Stamford Research Institute is not associated with Stamford University. It's a paranormal hobby group. A joke. 

Real research is being done in the area of NDEs by Sam Parnia. It's not a shunned aspect of observation, there's just no evidence supporting afterlife existence. Physics denies the idea.

7 minutes ago, ocpaul20 said:

NDE's reported by many have certain features which are repeated by people of different faiths, cultures, and educational systems across the world, so it is not a 'belief system' thing, but something else. 

Then why do faith based people have them more often?

Patients of theistic religions (Christianity, Islam and Hinduism) reported significantly more NDEs compared to patients from the non-theistic religious group (Buddhism). 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28669110/

7 minutes ago, ocpaul20 said:

Those people who do not accept that NDE's are what is truly being experienced by the folks who 'die', have to explain how other techniques such as RV and out-of-body experiences report there are other realities which they can access.

That's what the AWARE project is actually doing. So far they have found that the brain shuts down bit by bit. We may even be able to hear our own death being announced.

7 minutes ago, ocpaul20 said:

Occult and Eastern religions have been documenting the death process for hundreds of years and books of the dead which give details of the bardoh process have been produced.

Exactly. Man made ancient philosophy. Not results, not observation, nothing but a background in superstition.

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30 minutes ago, ocpaul20 said:

I think we have to look at other areas where investigation HAS been done scientifically and techniques used to produce results have shown to be much, much greater than chance. 

All you need is for one person...just one...who was dead, and buried, and an exhumation happened 3 weeks after...and that person comes back to life and describes what 'the other side' was like...just one.

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I've read a lot of the accounts from time to time on NDERF website.   There have been many accounts of the life review (as many have heard) , interestingly they will say that they experience every detail of their entire life , in more detail then we see ours now, when they may have only been out for a short time , maybe just minutes. And not just from their point of view , but from everyone else's point of view around them, as though they feel and see from the others around them how they themselves made the others feel with their actions.

                                                                                                       So at the very least , the mind could be far more complicated than we can imagine, or perhaps we are all connected , and the entirety of it all is being recorded. Still perplexes me how someone could state , they reviewed and experienced their entire lives when only out for a matter of minutes here.

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gotta wonder , if I had a life review , if I would see myself actually typing this and reading these posts at these very moments. And maybe even be able to feel peoples emotions or reactions to it as they read it.

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On 8/19/2019 at 12:45 PM, UM-Bot said:

Some patients who 'died' for a short period have reported things that they couldn't possibly have known about.

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/news/329817/are-near-death-experiences-merely-illusions

If the NDEs are mere illusions, then they have an undeniable affect upon the vast majority of experiencers.

A greater sense of purpose in life, usually aligned with more compassionate and emphatic thoughts and feelings. A higher sense of the spiritual, better health, less stress and fear of death. 

These are deep and profound changes in the psychological attitudes and everyday actions for these folks. 

Personally I would suggest that something far more real is occurring - that has such a life altering effect.

 

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15 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

If the NDEs are mere illusions, then they have an undeniable affect upon the vast majority of experiencers.

A greater sense of purpose in life, usually aligned with more compassionate and emphatic thoughts and feelings. A higher sense of the spiritual, better health, less stress and fear of death. 

These are deep and profound changes in the psychological attitudes and everyday actions for these folks. 

Personally I would suggest that something far more real is occurring - that has such a life altering effect.

 

That is not always true.  I met a woman who was angry that she "had to come back".  She had a baby when she had her experience and a husband and lots of family that loved her but she was angry and it was expressed in everything she said.

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1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

That is not always true.  I met a woman who was angry that she "had to come back".  She had a baby when she had her experience and a husband and lots of family that loved her but she was angry and it was expressed in everything she said.

Just out of interest, when did you last see/talk to her? I would be interested in whether she had changed her mind over time?

But anyway, I realise its not always the case, although she must have believed the experience was totally real.

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4 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Just out of interest, when did you last see/talk to her? I would be interested in whether she had changed her mind over time?

But anyway, I realise its not always the case, although she must have believed the experience was totally real.

I only met her once at a book store that her husband ran.  It had been a year and she was angry, she did not want to come back and I think her husband was very hurt by her attitude, but he kept everything together.  I have never seen her again.

I also found a book about a man who had a near death experience where he was surrounded by angry people and yelled at and abused,  that was his experience and I found it very weird.  He came away with the idea that there is a hell and wrote a book about it.  I did not read the whole book just a few chapters because it fascinated me but also something bugged me about it so I did not buy the book and read the whole thing.

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I looked for that book on Amazon but only found the doctor and heaven books on near death experiences. 

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15 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I only met her once at a book store that her husband ran.  It had been a year and she was angry, she did not want to come back and I think her husband was very hurt by her attitude, but he kept everything together.  I have never seen her again.

I also found a book about a man who had a near death experience where he was surrounded by angry people and yelled at and abused,  that was his experience and I found it very weird.  He came away with the idea that there is a hell and wrote a book about it.  I did not read the whole book just a few chapters because it fascinated me but also something bugged me about it so I did not buy the book and read the whole thing.

Whether the experience itself was super positive or very negative, it leaves a deep impression upon the individual who I'm assuming felt it was real?

I wonder if the guy who had the hellish experience, and it does happen occasionally, whether he came back with a more enlightened attitude towards life and other folk?

Have just finished a book on the initiation of the Mystery Schools back in the day, across the globe, the initiated have been having these exact same experiences, (more or less) throughout our known history. Only with a conscious effort and great discipline.. I find the similarities between the two very interesting to say the least!

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On 1/9/2020 at 10:16 AM, papageorge1 said:

What the? I lead a normal life. All I was saying is that I personally have not had a lot of paranormal type experiences so I listen to and consider those experiences of others.

AND you have a "meter" where you decide whether they are true or not, tending to go first to the paranormal which is strange since you say you have not had your own experience (my opinion is that you have not noticed) but you want to believe the world is less mundane than we are programmed to believe it is.  If you have no experience to judge, then your "papameter" is just wishful thinking.

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4 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

AND you have a "meter" where you decide whether they are true or not, tending to go first to the paranormal which is strange since you say you have not had your own experience (my opinion is that you have not noticed) but you want to believe the world is less mundane than we are programmed to believe it is.  If you have no experience to judge, then your "papameter" is just wishful thinking.

The "meter" is basically a way for us to know how bias he is. 

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20 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

AND you have a "meter" where you decide whether they are true or not, tending to go first to the paranormal which is strange since you say you have not had your own experience (my opinion is that you have not noticed) but you want to believe the world is less mundane than we are programmed to believe it is.  If you have no experience to judge, then your "papameter" is just wishful thinking.

Where is this coming from? The meter does not determine truth or not; it gauges likelihood of the various possibilities based on my knowledge and reasoning. Sounds like a reasonable way to assess things to me. 

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2 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Where is this coming from? The meter does not determine truth or not; it gauges likelihood of the various possibilities based on my knowledge and reasoning. Sounds like a reasonable way to assess things to me. 

Except that you lack knowledge.  You only have hearsay based on your words, not mine.

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Just now, Desertrat56 said:

Except that you lack knowledge.  You only have hearsay based on your words, not mine.

Nobody has experienced everything. Others can relate their experiences to us and other humans can be assumed to be similar enough to us that we should listen and consider. You can take the attitude that I will believe in nothing that doesn't happen to me directly but that would surely unnecessarily impoverish what we can know in my opinion.

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1 hour ago, papageorge1 said:

Nobody has experienced everything. Others can relate their experiences to us and other humans can be assumed to be similar enough to us that we should listen and consider. You can take the attitude that I will believe in nothing that doesn't happen to me directly but that would surely unnecessarily impoverish what we can know in my opinion.

You lack experience. It's not that much different than a virgin describing what sex is like. Sure they can talk it up, but lack the experience of it. You believe without experience. I challenged you to go ghost hunting, to use a ouija board, even perform an evocation, nadda, zipp, ziltch. You are quite comfortable from your armchair. It's where you're safest at.

Edited by XenoFish
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On 1/18/2020 at 6:38 AM, Crazy Horse said:

If the NDEs are mere illusions, then they have an undeniable affect upon the vast majority of experiencers.

A greater sense of purpose in life, usually aligned with more compassionate and emphatic thoughts and feelings. A higher sense of the spiritual, better health, less stress and fear of death. 

These are deep and profound changes in the psychological attitudes and everyday actions for these folks. 

Personally I would suggest that something far more real is occurring - that has such a life altering effect.

 

On what basis or authority do you feel validated in taking your opinion to suggestion.? 

Airy fairy views of afterlife concepts are dime a dozen. What can you actually bring to the table for discussion?

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13 hours ago, psyche101 said:

On what basis or authority do you feel validated in taking your opinion to suggestion.? 

Airy fairy views of afterlife concepts are dime a dozen. What can you actually bring to the table for discussion?

Unless a person has an open mind concerning these issues, I can do or say nothing.

What have you brought to the table except negative comments?

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On 1/19/2020 at 11:59 PM, Crazy Horse said:

Unless a person has an open mind concerning these issues, I can do or say nothing.

I agree. You don't have an open mind. You consider philosophy to be equivalent to fact but it's not. 

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What have you brought to the table except negative comments?

Supported information. If it's not what you want to hear, that's hardly my fault. 

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On 1/22/2020 at 2:04 AM, psyche101 said:

I agree. You don't have an open mind. You consider philosophy to be equivalent to fact but it's not. 

Supported information. If it's not what you want to hear, that's hardly my fault. 

Its a fact that nobody likes to suffer, real harsh pain and torment.

That's a fact!

Yet mental anguish and suffering can be over-come with a spiritual, philosophical attitude to life.

So philosophy is superior to a million facts when it comes to easing mental pain and anguish..

 

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