Are near-death experiences merely illusions ?

[papageorge1]

On 8/21/2019 at 3:19 PM, eight bits said:

Put succinctly, one guy said he found a quarter after another guy predicted he would. 

Carnival fortune tellers manage better than that.

I read the story. He was not making a warm read guess but describing his direct observation. Some of us note that difference when actually thinking open-mindedly.

 

[+Liquid Gardens]

41 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I read the story. He was not making a warm read guess but describing his direct observation. Some of us note that difference when actually thinking open-mindedly.

Some of us though treat what you yourself admit with the credibility it does and more importantly doesn't deserve:  "I read the story".  You believe all the stories you read?  Or are you also not open-minded?

[papageorge1]

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Some of us though treat what you yourself admit with the credibility it does and more importantly doesn't deserve:  "I read the story".  You believe all the stories you read?  Or are you also not open-minded?

I do not outright reject or accept anecdotes I read. In this case I think there is a good chance some paranormal perception occurred. But more importantly than this case is the full body of cases claiming paranormal perception in Near Death states and from the full body of cases I have come to believe such things occur beyond reasonable doubt.

Edited August 23, 2019 by papageorge1

[+Liquid Gardens]

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

I do not outright reject or accept anecdotes I read.

So you are undecided on whether I teleported to work this morning?  I don't 'outright reject' the supernatural, most people here don't I'd wager, there's just no good reason to believe things based on mere claims with no other evidence.

2 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

But more importantly than this case is the full body of cases claiming paranormal perception in Near Death states and from the full body of cases I have come to believe such things occur beyond reasonable doubt.

I don't think that's really that much more important, the key word in your statement is 'claiming'.  One decent piece of evidence would be worth a million claims.  You are of course free to use any standard you'd like, or not, but I'll note that science/parapsychologists have made zero progress in establishing anything at all about the supernatural, including even verifying its existence, despite 'the full body of cases'.  To me, that says quite a bit about how useful and compelling that full body of cases isn't.  

[Piney]

15 hours ago, Habitat said:

 (the Team)

13 hours ago, Habitat said:

 the team

[XenoFish]

@Piney

[papageorge1]

45 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

So you are undecided on whether I teleported to work this morning?

 I can distinguish facetiousness through the use of reason.

45 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

 

I don't think that's really that much more important, the key word in your statement is 'claiming'.  One decent piece of evidence would be worth a million claims. 

What decent evidence after the fact could even be expected for 'the quarter' story as a typical example?

To me, quantity, quality and consistency over a large enough body of anecdotes is the 'one decent piece of evidence' that you are asking for. Reasoned analysis is an important human reasoning skill.

45 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

You are of course free to use any standard you'd like, or not, but I'll note that science/parapsychologists have made zero progress in establishing anything at all about the supernatural, including even verifying its existence, despite 'the full body of cases'.  To me, that says quite a bit about how useful and compelling that full body of cases isn't.  

On the contrary I have read much esoteric science literature from Theosophical and occult traditions that describe the super-physical in considerable detail. These traditions provide explanatory models for cases like 'the quarter' case. We have an interpenetrating astral body that separates from the physical body at death and often at death-like trauma. This astral body hovers near the physical body for a time with an ability to sense its environment from a perspective not aligned with the physical eyes.

Explanations by hard-nosed materialist on 'the quarter' (and a body of other) stories; lies, lucky guess, deduced guess, over-embellished re-telling, etc.. And I even say some of these explanations may actually occur from time-to-time in a small percentage of the cases, they in all seem to my personal judgment as a desperate attempt to save an inadequate worldview.

Edited August 23, 2019 by papageorge1

[XenoFish]

1 hour ago, papageorge1 said:

I have read much esoteric science literature from Theosophical and occult traditions that describe the super-physical in considerable detail.

Well there's the problem.

[onlookerofmayhem]

1 hour ago, papageorge1 said:

Explanations by hard-nosed materialist on 'the quarter' (and a body of other) stories; lies, lucky guess, deduced guess, over-embellished re-telling, etc.. And I even say some of these explanations may actually occur from time-to-time in a small percentage of the cases, they in all seem to my personal judgment as a desperate attempt to save an inadequate worldview.

Do you believe that some people can do "real" magic? As opposed to sleight of hand illusion types?

I've seen thousands of tricks done. Some are incredible. But after a certain age and maturation I came to realize I was being tricked. Nothing but prosaic explanations for things I was perceiving and thought to be impossible. No rabbits from hats. No solid rings being interlocked. No woman being sawed in two. Yet I am still amazed at the ability some have to fool others. I am still highly entertained by the challenge of trying to figure out how certain tricks were done.

Your gross mantra of quantity, quality and consistency doesn't hold up to any scrutiny at all. 

You say that it's a small percentage of the total that can be explained in a mundane way. Opting that the majority are supernatural. That is bunk. Any rational at all points to the opposite conclusion. 

There are no desperate attempts to save any world views on my part.

The simply reason is that the proponents of the supernatural have not even scratched the surface of meeting the burden of proof.

 

[VastLand]

On 8/22/2019 at 7:43 AM, Desertrat56 said:

@VastLand it is called the Pineal gland. 

I did say that.

[XenoFish]

4 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

Do you believe that some people can do "real" magic?

Want me to give you a way to see ghost?

[onlookerofmayhem]

Just now, XenoFish said:

Want me to give you a way to see ghost?

Yes please.

[onlookerofmayhem]

@XenoFish

Preferably not like this :

[XenoFish]

3 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

@XenoFish

Preferably not like this :

PM sent.

[papageorge1]

52 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

Do you believe that some people can do "real" magic? As opposed to sleight of hand illusion types?

I've seen thousands of tricks done. Some are incredible. But after a certain age and maturation I came to realize I was being tricked. Nothing but prosaic explanations for things I was perceiving and thought to be impossible. No rabbits from hats. No solid rings being interlocked. No woman being sawed in two. Yet I am still amazed at the ability some have to fool others. I am still highly entertained by the challenge of trying to figure out how certain tricks were done.

 

I don't see what point you are making. Are you suggesting the people in these stories are playing intentional tricks to deceive us?

[Habitat]

3 hours ago, Piney said:

Of course there is a group here with a common, materialist-oriented outlook, hence the "team", they far outnumber others with different views.

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Of course there is a group here with a common, materialist-oriented outlook, hence the "team", they far outnumber others with different views.

word of the day

[Piney]

Just now, Habitat said:

Of course there is a group here with a common, materialist-oriented outlook, hence the "team", they far outnumber others with different views.

 Oh dear.......

I was never told. 

 

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, Piney said:

 Oh dear.......

I was never told. 

 

Don't fret if you don't agree with him then you're a part of the "team".

Edited August 23, 2019 by XenoFish

[Habitat]

The only people who seem to be obsessed about my calling an identifiable group with a common outlook a team, is the team itself. Of course they differ, but not in the broad . They are anti-"woo" warriors. But seem not to understand why.

[XenoFish]

Just now, Habitat said:

The only people who seem to be obsessed about my calling an identifiable group with a common outlook a team, is the team itself. Of course they differ, but not in the broad . They are anti-"woo" warriors. But seem not to understand why.

Word of the day

[Habitat]

46 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I don't see what point you are making. Are you suggesting the people in these stories are playing intentional tricks to deceive us?

Not only those people, but all reporters of "woo", can be pegged as tricksters, apparently. One would require a hard-bitten view of humanity, to ascribe that as the explanation, occasionally though, the reporters get off the charge, on the grounds of insanity, seemingly.

[Dejarma]

4 minutes ago, Habitat said:

One would require a hard-bitten view of humanity,

god's view maybe?

[onlookerofmayhem]

39 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I don't see what point you are making. Are you suggesting the people in these stories are playing intentional tricks to deceive us?

The point was that people are easily duped. 

Santa Clause. Tooth fairy. Jack and the beanstalk.

Tell a kid these stories and they will believe them. Until they can start thinking critically. Then they start asking questions and the answers don't hold up. Same as the supernatural. Stories are stories are stories. None of the answers given by believers have ever held up or it would become common knowledge. 

Hence the analogy to magic. People who don't know how the tricks are done are in awe. They momenterally can't comprehend that there is a rational explanation. They know what they saw. They know it defies they laws of physics and everything they know is possible. Yet, boom. Mind blown. Until you explain how it's done. Then it all makes sense and the person is left to wonder how they were duped in the first place

That's the problem with the supernatural. There are literally no transferable evidence that has been provided. Nobody can show how the trick is done. Or even if a trick is happening in the first place. 

 

[papageorge1]

1 minute ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

The point was that people are easily duped. 

Santa Clause. Tooth fairy. Jack and the beanstalk.

Tell a kid these stories and they will believe them. Until they can start thinking critically. Then they start asking questions and the answers don't hold up. Same as the supernatural. Stories are stories are stories. None of the answers given by believers have ever held up or it would become common knowledge. 

Hence the analogy to magic. People who don't know how the tricks are done are in awe. They momenterally can't comprehend that there is a rational explanation. They know what they saw. They know it defies they laws of physics and everything they know is possible. Yet, boom. Mind blown. Until you explain how it's done. Then it all makes sense and the person is left to wonder how they were duped in the first place

That's the problem with the supernatural. There are literally no transferable evidence that has been provided. Nobody can show how the trick is done. Or even if a trick is happening in the first place. 

 

So, the question I asked was: Are you suggesting the people in these stories are playing intentional tricks to deceive us?

I am guessing the answer is 'Yes' (or you're avoiding the question?). All the examples you keep giving include intentional tricks and deceptions. For example, are you saying the guy in the OP 'quarter story' intentionally played a fast one on the people there? And from that are we to extrapolate that is what happens every time in all these cases?

Again I must ask:  What is your point? 

The magic and Santa Claus analogies don't apply unless there is an intentional deceiver!!