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Are near-death experiences merely illusions ?

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papageorge1
Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I would need more information on the typical experiment, what exactly was the remote viewer doing?  You mention 'the judge' has to select between one of four possibilities; do you mean the remote viewer and not the judge?  Sorry, I'm confused what this experiment entails, like I said the ones I looked at involve the remote viewer drawing something and a subjective match being made to determine if resembles something else.  Is there a link maybe that describes the experiment you are referring to? 

I don't have a link but I am sure the information is out there on experimental procedures. (I am not at home right now). But REGARDLESS, I think people like Radin, Hyman, Utts, Targ, etc.. would have noticed any methodological flaw by now that would invalidate the results. We are now directly in the area of their expertise.

40 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Concerning Hyman, the wiki entry on remote viewing says, "Hyman also says that the amount and quality of the experiments on RV are way too low to convince the scientific community to "abandon its fundamental ideas about causality, time, and other principles", due to its findings still not having been replicated successfully under careful scrutiny".  That seems to provide an explanation for anomalous statistical results.

With enough experiments done with reproducibility to produce a one in ten-billion odds against chance, the verdict is in for all practical purposes.

As for, science to "abandon its fundamental ideas about causality, time, and other principles" the responsible and conservative parapsychologists and statisticians are NOT EVEN SAYING THIS. What they ARE SAYING is the experimental results in psi have no explanation at this time! The writing might be going on the wall for some dramatic new additions to science but the experiments we are talking about only say something currently unknown by science is occurring.

“After a century of increasingly sophisticated investigations and more than a thousand controlled studies with combined odds against chance of 10 to the 104th power to 1, there is now strong evidence that psi phenomena exist. While this is an impressive statistic, all it means is that the outcomes of these experiments are definitely not due to coincidence. We’ve considered other common explanations like selective reporting and variations in experimental quality, and while those factors do moderate the overall results, there can be no little doubt that overall something interesting is going on. It seems increasingly likely that as physics continues to redefine our understanding of the fabric of reality, a theoretical outlook for a rational explanation for psi will eventually be established 

Dr. Dean Radin Parapsychologist

 

Really read this slowly. Notice Radin is conservative and not calling on science " to abandon its fundamental ideas about causality, time, and other principles". Basically he is just saying that science has a mystery to work on!

Edited by papageorge1

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Liquid Gardens
34 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Really read this slowly. Notice Radin is conservative and not calling on science " to abandon its fundamental ideas about causality, time, and other principles". Basically he is just saying that science has a mystery to work on!

"There is now strong evidence that psi phenomena exist" is not 'conservative'.  

If you're interested, Dr Robert Carroll (RIP) from The Skeptic's Dictionary reviewed a couple of Radin's books, they are at the bottom of this link: http://skepdic.com/essays/radin.html.  Here are some comments that stand out:

"The evidence Radin presents, however, is little more than a hodgepodge of occult statistics. Unable to find a single person who can correctly guess a three-letter word or move a pencil an inch without trickery, the psi researchers have resorted to doing complex statistical analyses of data."

"There is a telling anecdote that reveals a problem with much psi research alluded to earlier: the problem of clearly identifying before the research begins exactly what will count as information transfer. Radin mentions two receivers in the dream telepathy experiments, which involved a sender concentrating on a target (Max Beckmann’s painting Descent from the Cross, which depicts Jesus being taken down from the cross) and a receiver whose dreams are supposed to be influenced by the sender. The receiver is awakened when equipment indicates he has completed a dream state and asked to describe his dream. The sender in this case was also given some additional visual aids to work with: a crucifix, a Jesus doll, nails, and a red marker. He was given instructions to nail the doll to the crucifix and use the marker to color the body as if with blood. One receiver dreamed of a speech by Winston Churchill and the other of a “native ceremonial sacrifice.” There was a reference to “sacrificing two victims,” something about “destroying the civilized,” and “the awe of god idea.” Radin comments on the symbolic significance of “church-hill.” There is nothing in either dream of the crucifixion in all its gory representation, yet these dreams are considered successful telepathic “hits.” After all, Jesus died on a hill, a church is named after him, the crucifixion is looked at as a sacrifice by Christians, Jesus (according to some people) is both man and god (two victims?), and there was a god of some sort mentioned in one of the dreams. On the other hand, there are literally thousands of items that one might retrofit these dreams to. By allowing loose and symbolic connections to be made after the fact in order to evaluate the accuracy of the “telepathy” may be more a measure of the cleverness, motivation, and experience of the judges than of the paranormal powers of the participants. (It is of some interest that nowhere in his book does Radin discuss the issue of subjective validation and the problems it poses for psi research.)"

 

That latter comment is exactly why I'm asking about what the studies entailed.

 

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joc
12 hours ago, Habitat said:

For better or worse, joc, the "powers that be" have answered this afterlife theory for me, in the positive, or at least it seems to accept some "souls", perhaps you and I have a job to get past the door, but I really don't know about that.

There are no powers that be. You answered your own question...i.e...confirmation bias.

There is no door. There is only life and death.

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Habitat
5 minutes ago, joc said:

There are no powers that be. You answered your own question...i.e...confirmation bias.

There is no door. There is only life and death.

I wouldn't be surprised if people with that attitude are not disappointed.

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papageorge1
2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

"There is now strong evidence that psi phenomena exist" is not 'conservative'.  

If you're interested, Dr Robert Carroll (RIP) from The Skeptic's Dictionary reviewed a couple of Radin's books, they are at the bottom of this link: http://skepdic.com/essays/radin.html.  Here are some comments that stand out:

"The evidence Radin presents, however, is little more than a hodgepodge of occult statistics. Unable to find a single person who can correctly guess a three-letter word or move a pencil an inch without trickery, the psi researchers have resorted to doing complex statistical analyses of data."

"There is a telling anecdote that reveals a problem with much psi research alluded to earlier: the problem of clearly identifying before the research begins exactly what will count as information transfer. Radin mentions two receivers in the dream telepathy experiments, which involved a sender concentrating on a target (Max Beckmann’s painting Descent from the Cross, which depicts Jesus being taken down from the cross) and a receiver whose dreams are supposed to be influenced by the sender. The receiver is awakened when equipment indicates he has completed a dream state and asked to describe his dream. The sender in this case was also given some additional visual aids to work with: a crucifix, a Jesus doll, nails, and a red marker. He was given instructions to nail the doll to the crucifix and use the marker to color the body as if with blood. One receiver dreamed of a speech by Winston Churchill and the other of a “native ceremonial sacrifice.” There was a reference to “sacrificing two victims,” something about “destroying the civilized,” and “the awe of god idea.” Radin comments on the symbolic significance of “church-hill.” There is nothing in either dream of the crucifixion in all its gory representation, yet these dreams are considered successful telepathic “hits.” After all, Jesus died on a hill, a church is named after him, the crucifixion is looked at as a sacrifice by Christians, Jesus (according to some people) is both man and god (two victims?), and there was a god of some sort mentioned in one of the dreams. On the other hand, there are literally thousands of items that one might retrofit these dreams to. By allowing loose and symbolic connections to be made after the fact in order to evaluate the accuracy of the “telepathy” may be more a measure of the cleverness, motivation, and experience of the judges than of the paranormal powers of the participants. (It is of some interest that nowhere in his book does Radin discuss the issue of subjective validation and the problems it poses for psi research.)"

These comments are not applicable to the discussion of odds against chance experiments. There are many different types of psi experiments like there are types of fruit. apples. bananas, oranges. I was only talking about the type of tests were odds against chance can be calculated. In 'odds against chance' analysis no 'subjective validation' is used.

2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

That latter comment is exactly why I'm asking about what the studies entailed.

 

Here is the paper written by Jessica Utts   AN ASSESMENT OF THE EVIDENCE FOR PSYCHIC FUNCTIONING

I think the meat of what you are asking about starts at around section 2.2.3   Randomness and Rank-Order Judging

Rank-order judging experiments are what allow for odds against chance statistical calculations.

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Truthseeker007
On ‎8‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 2:43 AM, psyche101 said:

The energy your body generates dissapates as heat when you die. Basic thermodynamics. 

It goes into the immediate atmosphere. We know this much. There's not a that many possibilities with heat dissapation. 

And the soul and spirit remains which can't be broken apart. But yes if we are talking about the human body that is for sure. Not to mention the human body being fed on as it decomposes.

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and then
On 8/25/2019 at 6:08 PM, XenoFish said:

Nothing matters. 

Then why complain?  People who really believe that nothing matters wouldn't be bothered to complain about the inequities in life.

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Pettytalk
2 hours ago, and then said:

Then why complain?  People who really believe that nothing matters wouldn't be bothered to complain about the inequities in life.

Nothing matters except for the matter of telling others that nothing matters. 

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Captain Risky
On 8/27/2019 at 9:59 AM, joc said:

There are no powers that be. You answered your own question...i.e...confirmation bias.

There is no door. There is only life and death.

...alright, so why doesn't anyone complain of a near life experience? 

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Desertrat56
13 hours ago, Truthseeker007 said:

And the soul and spirit remains which can't be broken apart. But yes if we are talking about the human body that is for sure. Not to mention the human body being fed on as it decomposes.

Are the soul and spirit two separate (or in your words iinseparable) entities or essences?  If your model of how things are includes that could you define the difference between soul and spirit? 

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Truthseeker007

As the body dies...We learn from near death experiences...They are still awake and alive and even tell you what the Dr's do to their body. It is pretty much a fact that once your body dies you are still very much alive. 

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Coil
12 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Are the soul and spirit two separate (or in your words iinseparable) entities or essences?  If your model of how things are includes that could you define the difference between soul and spirit? 

This is written about the soul:

The Soul is a spark of the Divine Spirit, supporting the individual nature of man, descended to the level of evolution as a divine Foundation, supporting the process of personality development from Ignorance to the Light. The soul forms in the course of evolution a psychic personality that grows and develops from life to life, using the mind, vital being and body as tools. The soul is immortal, while the rest of the human being is subject to destruction; it carries the quintessence of the experience gained during life from one incarnation to another, thus ensuring the continuity of the evolution of the individual.

The soul is needed as a mediator between the spirit and our external consciousness because it translates the ideas of the spirit that are too endless and too great for understanding into images that are more understandable to us, as well as a step-down transformer transfers too much energy from the power plant to the end consumers.

All living beings incarnating on the Earth have a soul; also it was seen by spiritual people and by inanimate objects (watches and cars)

The soul feels that God is, therefore, it is impossible to deceive it as our external consciousness.There are different stages of the manifestation of the soul in man.

The awakening soul in man brings a feeling of bliss.

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Desertrat56
5 hours ago, Coil said:

This is written about the soul:

The Soul is a spark of the Divine Spirit, supporting the individual nature of man, descended to the level of evolution as a divine Foundation, supporting the process of personality development from Ignorance to the Light. The soul forms in the course of evolution a psychic personality that grows and develops from life to life, using the mind, vital being and body as tools. The soul is immortal, while the rest of the human being is subject to destruction; it carries the quintessence of the experience gained during life from one incarnation to another, thus ensuring the continuity of the evolution of the individual.

The soul is needed as a mediator between the spirit and our external consciousness because it translates the ideas of the spirit that are too endless and too great for understanding into images that are more understandable to us, as well as a step-down transformer transfers too much energy from the power plant to the end consumers.

All living beings incarnating on the Earth have a soul; also it was seen by spiritual people and by inanimate objects (watches and cars)

The soul feels that God is, therefore, it is impossible to deceive it as our external consciousness.There are different stages of the manifestation of the soul in man.

The awakening soul in man brings a feeling of bliss.

Thank you.  Could you reference the text you got that from?  You say "this is written about the soul" but not who wrote it.

P.S.  I want @Truthseeker007 to give me his definition.

Edited by Desertrat56

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Coil
20 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Thank you.  Could you reference the text you got that from?  You say "this is written about the soul" but not who wrote it.

P.S.  I want @Truthseeker007 to give me his definition.

 

This is from a yoga dictionary. It is a very valuable vocabulary of concepts showing the essence:

https://incarnateword.in/dict/mppandit

Find an explanation of the Soul, SELF, "Jivatman  and the psychic being" there

 
But not everything that I wrote above is written in the dictionary, there are other books that I can’t remember but information from this person remained in my memory.
 
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Desertrat56
3 hours ago, Coil said:
 

This is from a yoga dictionary. It is a very valuable vocabulary of concepts showing the essence:

https://incarnateword.in/dict/mppandit

Find an explanation of the Soul, SELF, "Jivatman  and the psychic being" there

 
But not everything that I wrote above is written in the dictionary, there are other books that I can’t remember but information from this person remained in my memory.
 

Thank you for the source. 

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VastLand
On 8/20/2019 at 4:52 PM, Habitat said:

It is obvious to me that a lot of people on these boards have been harmed by religious ratbaggery, in a family setting. But people are badly affected by any ratbaggery in the family setting, young people are vulnerable, and to have parents or guardians who are not "together" people, on any level, is a fraught situation for the child. This "Christian" fanaticism is largely a USA issue, though, much less common elsewhere.  But the bottom line remains, that whatever lies at the true heart of religion, is not affected  by the dross heaped upon it by the misguided interpretations of others. Because someone claims allegiance to a religion, does not mean they being faithful to it, in the same way that corrupt police are not a reflection on the intent of the law they are supposed to uphold. I think most of tension evident on these boards, reflects a conflict between a deep intuition that there is a kernel of truth in religion, and a rejection of indoctrination that badly misinterprets that truth.

This is why I left the forum. See I came to learn and share, oh, about a year and a half ago, I figure. Came along to learn, to share, the wealth of happiness I began to know. I was met by these people you talk about. They were bad at holding back their emotions, and they acted on them frequently, causing bullying, and mistreatment, of different manner. 

I came back to do it again, but this time, I do not dangle my pearls to pigs, I will not talk directly to them if I must, I will ignore them if I must, but I will not tell them everything, that would be folly. They will learn in time, and I will just address these issues and knowledge, to the people who are looking for her.

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Desertrat56
4 minutes ago, VastLand said:

This is why I left the forum. See I came to learn and share, oh, about a year and a half ago, I figure. Came along to learn, to share, the wealth of happiness I began to know. I was met by these people you talk about. They were bad at holding back their emotions, and they acted on them frequently, causing bullying, and mistreatment, of different manner. 

I came back to do it again, but this time, I do not dangle my pearls to pigs, I will not talk directly to them if I must, I will ignore them if I must, but I will not tell them everything, that would be folly. They will learn in time, and I will just address these issues and knowledge, to the people who are looking for her.

May I ask who "her" is?

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VastLand
On 8/20/2019 at 5:54 PM, Habitat said:

I have all the proof I need, that the "beyond" is real, and a hundred-fold. Otherwise you would not see me here. I am not easy to convince. Were it otherwise, I would be firmly in the "I don't know" camp, and not bother discussing it further. I would not be endlessly trotting out negative opinions on the subject, something that people don't do, unless there is an acceptance at some level, that there is something important at stake. But they are having trouble disentangling what that "something" is, from the propaganda they were fed at an impressionable age. The best way to do that, is just admit the obvious truth, that they really don't know the status of it. The rest will take care of itself. But if they think they can safely judge, on the information available, what the real situation may be, there is no relief in prospect. You won't find the "killer" evidence, but it may find you, though I doubt it ever will, if you fancy yourself as a fit judge, without that evidence.

Sometimes, we choose to share something, that has been proven true to ourselves, personally. After we share, they think not, and reject our expression. And then we reply, while others mistake us for trying to prove we are correct, for ourselves. Rather, I find, that majority of the time, I am responding, not to prove it for myself, or to be validated, but rather, I am reasoning with others, in hopes that they may find, what I have found. Then of course, it has little to do with me, and more under the drive, that I persist to help others.

Of course, then it depends on what a person is sharing. A person can mean the best intentions, and spread destructive lies. I see it all the time.

Now I am not completely defending you, as I have no idea what you said before, yet I at least understand what it feels like to be rejected, when I mean well.

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VastLand
On 8/21/2019 at 4:59 AM, psyche101 said:

I have no doubts, my prejudices are well founded

Quote

Prejudice: 1. Prejudgment; an opinion or decision of mind, formed without due examination of the facts or arguments which are necessary to a just and impartial determination.

http://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Prejudice

 

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VastLand
19 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

May I ask who "her" is?

wisdom, one of the two faces of knowledge.

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VastLand
On 8/22/2019 at 1:37 AM, Habitat said:

That is an old line I've heard trotted out a hundred times. I don't think they are all of that character, at all. 

First hand experience has shown me that there are different dreams for different causes.

If I have been under considerable stress, over a specific fear, it manifest in my dreams.

If I believe myself capable beyond ordinary dream states, I have Lucid dreams.

I have had dreams, that ended up deja vu.

I have had dreams, guiding me in my personal path, think choices and outcomes...

What your mind chooses to receive at a given time, is what it will perceive. And sometimes a Deja Vu dream comes when you least expect it... Psychology, in modern era, is stretches in the dark, theories, based on interpretations of experiments. Almost all of it is conjecture, which is relative to the viewer, as all interpretation of data, is based upon your personal philosophy. There is however, a truth that is the solid, no matter perspective, whether the viewer sees it or not.

I have learned this lesson well, that Healers of old, can better discern the inner workings of the Psyche, than anyone with a PHD. For they get to the root of the matter. Everything starts somewhere, and Psychology started in mysticism.

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XenoFish
On 9/2/2019 at 2:20 AM, Truthseeker007 said:

It is pretty much a fact that once your body dies you are still very much alive. 

Until all cellular activity stops and you're a puddle at the bottom of a pine box six foot under.

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joc
3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Until all cellular activity stops and you're a puddle at the bottom of a pine box six foot under.

Yep! That embalming fluid kind of does a number on cellular activity.  And ...it is pretty much a fact that when your body dies...yeah...your dead.  If you regain consciousness it is because...duh...your body wasn't really dead.

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XenoFish

What happens after we die? Someone will miss us. 

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