Are near-death experiences merely illusions ?

[onlookerofmayhem]

34 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Its a fact that nobody likes to suffer, real harsh pain and torment.

What about masochists?

[Crazy Horse]

11 hours ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

What about masochists?

If it was real harsh pain and mental suffering, then no, some folks may like to go there once in awhile, but to be placed in a boiling vat of oil for example, no.

[psyche101]

15 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Its a fact that nobody likes to suffer, real harsh pain and torment.

That's a fact!

Yet mental anguish and suffering can be over-come with a spiritual, philosophical attitude to life.

So philosophy is superior to a million facts when it comes to easing mental pain and anguish..

 

If you think lying to yourself helps, then that explains truckloads about your views.

I'm more honest with myself I guess.

[Crazy Horse]

55 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

If you think lying to yourself helps, then that explains truckloads about your views.

I'm more honest with myself I guess.

If you are so sure, then refute how a more spiritual attitude and mind-set, doesn't help with mental suffering!

 

[psyche101]

34 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

If you are so sure, then refute how a more spiritual attitude and mind-set, doesn't help with mental suffering!

How is that different to drugs?

Problems don't go away by themselves. Pretending they have doesn't make that happen. 

[Crazy Horse]

21 hours ago, psyche101 said:

How is that different to drugs?

Problems don't go away by themselves. Pretending they have doesn't make that happen. 

Well that's a matter of perspective, something we all may control for ourselves.

Personally speaking, I see everything as being a lesson in life. When something "bad" happens to me, I question why, I look and know the causes, I learn, and improve my-self. Its a matter of refinement. In fact, I would say that bad feelings are the alarm call to wake-up, and heed the lesson. 

Knowing karma, and therefore having a belief in the Afterlife, helps tremendously.

In any event, I am in control of my life. I get to choose how to react. I know the consequences of certain actions, and therefore I would reframe from doing selfish or hateful things. (On a good day at least) Like I said, its a process.

[Artaxerxes]

Physical pain imprints on the soul the shape and parameters of the body, sort of like computer code, or when sculptor takes a hammer and chisel and makes a statue of a human being. Experiencing separation and loss imprints on the soul what it means and how it feels to be separate which is something that can't be learned in heaven as described by numerous near death experience descriptions. This Earth life is a school and we simply learn here the things that can't be learned in heaven. The soul's lessons are embedded in our everyday lives and it is holistically imprinted with what it needs to learn regardless of who we are, or where we live, or even what believe. Belief seems to be irrelevant. Everyone regardless of who they are experiences pretty much the same thing, atheists, gay, straight, Muslim, Christian, it just doesn't seem to matter.  And emotion and memory seem to be connected so the more emotion these experiences and lessons evoke the more we remember them. 

Edited June 13, 2021 by Artaxerxes

[ant0n]

The process of knowing seen in a linear way: lovely.

[Crazy Horse]

If the brain activity has flatlined, and by any medical definition, the person has passed-over, and considering the scientific idea that the brain generates and maintains consciousness, then how is it possible to have any conscious cognition at this time? 

Thoughts and feelings.

Huge emotional experiences that actually change lives forever. 

Something doesn't add-up.

[psyche101]

7 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

If the brain activity has flatlined, and by any medical definition, the person has passed-over, and considering the scientific idea that the brain generates and maintains consciousness, then how is it possible to have any conscious cognition at this time? 

Thoughts and feelings.

Huge emotional experiences that actually change lives forever. 

Something doesn't add-up.

It adds up just fine.

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/07/200708105935.htm

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.msn.com/en-in/health/medical/when-you-die-you-know-youre-dead-because-your-brain-still-works-and-you-could-even-hear-your-death-announced/amp/ar-AAtKt7o

https://www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20181125/Human-brain-may-stay-active-for-hours-after-death.aspx

[Crazy Horse]

7 hours ago, psyche101 said:

It adds up just fine.

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/07/200708105935.htm

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.msn.com/en-in/health/medical/when-you-die-you-know-youre-dead-because-your-brain-still-works-and-you-could-even-hear-your-death-announced/amp/ar-AAtKt7o

https://www.news-medical.net/amp/news/20181125/Human-brain-may-stay-active-for-hours-after-death.aspx

Not really..

Someone is pronounced dead by a doctor, based upon science.

That person then has a NDE, and in some cases don't emerge back until several hours have passed.

If there is no brain activity, and yet there are "huge" thoughts and feelings happening through-out, then either science is wrong, and they are in fact not dead, or, they are actually physically dead and ones consciousness continues.

To suggest that science doesn't have the equipment to register those brainwaves of the NDE, is in my opinion, disingenuous to say the least, especially when we consider how massively life changing, affirming, these experiences tend to be.

 

[+joc]

15 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

Not really..

Someone is pronounced dead by a doctor, based upon science.

That person then has a NDE, and in some cases don't emerge back until several hours have passed.

If there is no brain activity, and yet there are "huge" thoughts and feelings happening through-out, then either science is wrong, and they are in fact not dead, or, they are actually physically dead and ones consciousness continues.

To suggest that science doesn't have the equipment to register those brainwaves of the NDE, is in my opinion, disingenuous to say the least, especially when we consider how massively life changing, affirming, these experiences tend to be.

 

Just because the brain is too weak to generate brain wave activity does not necessarily mean that the body is dead.  The life is in the blood my friend...literally.  For instance, the patient on the operating table with every drop of blood in his body removed and swirling in a vat.  No brain waves.  No blood!  Is the body dead?  Yes...technically the body is dead.  But...the life is in the blood...not in the body...if the blood isn't dead...we be good.  

In the natural world things happen that are strange...but...if someone is conscious...it's because they were never DEAD.  DEAD is DEAD. When you are really dead, you don't come back do you?  No, you don't.  You people want to draw a fine line between death and life.  There isn't a fine line.  When you are dead my friend...you are dead...and if you are not dead, then you are NOT dead.

The only reason NDE has any following at all is because if you take away the possibility that Consciousness is separate from the body, then you dethrone the very religion that speaks of Resurrection...and if the Resurrection story isn't true then NONE of it is true.  So...the Resurrection  Story has to survive.  It is given a boost by NDE.   But in the end...the First Church of the Gooey Death will fall by the wayside.  And NDE will be a distant memory that humans used to believe.

[Dejarma]

hmmm, what is death? Is death laying on an operating table & surgeons fighting for your life.. Or, having your head blown clean off with a shotgun? You can not bring back someone with no head= that is dead!

[Dejarma]

21 minutes ago, joc said:

In the natural world things happen that are strange...but...if someone is conscious...it's because they were never DEAD.  DEAD is DEAD.

yep

[jmccr8]

20 minutes ago, joc said:

In the natural world things happen that are strange...but...if someone is conscious...it's because they were never DEAD.  DEAD is DEAD. When you are really dead, you don't come back do you?  No, you don't.  You people want to draw a fine line between death and life.  There isn't a fine line.  When you are dead my friend...you are dead...and if you are not dead, then you are NOT dead.

Hi Joc

This make me think about how we keep people artificially alive on life support and am making no inference to dne only that they could keep the body alive with very little brain activity, unplug them and they are gone.

[jmccr8]

4 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

hmmm, what is death? Is death laying on an operating table & surgeons fighting for your life.. Or, having your head blown clean off with a shotgun? You can not bring back someone with no head= that is dead!

Hi Dejarma

This reminded me of my mom, she always told me the only way I could die was if I was stabbed through the heart or got my head cut off so any injury less than that was livable.

[Dejarma]

1 minute ago, closed for business said:

so any injury less than that was livable

unless it eventually kills you

[jmccr8]

1 minute ago, Dejarma said:

unless it eventually kills you

I've tried and so far not much success rang that doorbell more than once.

[Dejarma]

NDE is (in my opinion) nothing more than the brain's way of coping with extreme trauma

[Dejarma]

1 minute ago, closed for business said:

I've tried and so far not much success rang that doorbell more than once.

nope, you've lost me there

[+joc]

10 hours ago, closed for business said:

Hi Joc

This make me think about how we keep people artificially alive on life support and am making no inference to dne only that they could keep the body alive with very little brain activity, unplug them and they are gone.

The thing is though...life is more than just blood cells.   There is an electrical component to all of it.  The brain is the electrical circuit board for the rest of the body.  Without the appropriate electrical signals from the brain none of it works...that being said...what causes these people who were said to be brain dead suddenly wake up?  I don't know.  But something causes it.  I am thinking now about my little blue acura fish that I found floating...not quite dead, but more or less dying...I tried to revive it by pushing it around in a cup of water with a pencil.  After a while it started swimming very slowly...then...quite suddenly...it just went berserk!  It was darting back and forth at an incredible pace...did that for about 10 seconds and then it suddenly stopped in this very frozen like state...like it had been electrocuted. 

[papageorge1]

14 hours ago, Dejarma said:

hmmm, what is death? Is death laying on an operating table & surgeons fighting for your life.. Or, having your head blown clean off with a shotgun? You can not bring back someone with no head= that is dead!

Your assumption is that life and consciousness are just physical processes. You are only right if your assumptions are right.

My position is that a head is only life's outercoat as is suggested by the Near Death Experience.

[+Liquid Gardens]

On 6/18/2021 at 5:07 AM, Crazy Horse said:

Someone is pronounced dead by a doctor, based upon science.

More specifically I'm pretty sure people are typically pronounced date based on their heart activity, not their brain activity.  Emergency rooms I don't think typically strap electrodes to your head when you're having a heart attack or been shot, and it is the lack of pulse that is the basis for being pronounced deceased.  You are assuming 'no brain activity', something doctors are not usually monitoring, which is countered by the links in the post from psyche that you apparently didn't read.

On 6/18/2021 at 5:07 AM, Crazy Horse said:

especially when we consider how massively life changing

I don't understand why you keep mentioning this, what is the relevance?  Taking psychedelics is also life-changing, as are (unfortunately) events that cause people to have PTSD symptoms.  I don't think you really need an NDE to take something life-changing away from an event like this, I think the fact of 'wow I almost died...' would do most of that on its own.

[XenoFish]

Let's not forget the keyword to these discussions is Near Death. Not death, not dead. So anything near death is not a spiritual/supernatural experience. 

[psyche101]

On 6/18/2021 at 7:07 PM, Crazy Horse said:

Not really..

Someone is pronounced dead by a doctor, based upon science.

That person then has a NDE, and in some cases don't emerge back until several hours have passed.

If there is no brain activity, and yet there are "huge" thoughts and feelings happening through-out, then either science is wrong, and they are in fact not dead, or, they are actually physically dead and ones consciousness continues.

To suggest that science doesn't have the equipment to register those brainwaves of the NDE, is in my opinion, disingenuous to say the least, especially when we consider how massively life changing, affirming, these experiences tend to be.

 

Yes really. You didn't read the links. They rationalise every question you have produced. New research shows the brain has a shutdown period that may last up to several hours.

The life changing part is an emotional reaction to a significant event. 

You constantly overreach.