Are near-death experiences merely illusions ?

[XenoFish]

Why am I even here anymore? 

[papageorge1]

Just now, Desertrat56 said:

This happened in Texas, which is the USA (most of the time).  It is not dependent on country, but rather the church and what people will put up with and what they will force on people.

You mean she couldn't consider getting a new set of friends and leave that church? Relatives couldn't be left to stew in their own juices? You can't force an adult into an exorcism even in Texas. 

[+Desertrat56]

1 minute ago, papageorge1 said:

You mean she couldn't consider getting a new set of friends and leave that church? Relatives couldn't be left to stew in their own juices? You can't force an adult into an exorcism even in Texas. 

She did.  She just went to church because her relatives guilted her for weeks, and they had it planned so that when she did show up they would exorcise her.  She walked in the door, saw how everyone was ready for an exorcism and knew it was her, so she ran out the door and they chased her down the street.

[papageorge1]

Just now, Desertrat56 said:

She did.  She just went to church because her relatives guilted her for weeks, and they had it planned so that when she did show up they would exorcise her.  She walked in the door, saw how everyone was ready for an exorcism and knew it was her, so she ran out the door and they chased her down the street.

I see. Certainly the church's last resort is only physical force if the person is unwilling to have an exorcism. And even the police in Texas would have helped your friend and the church members gotten in trouble if it was a forced kidnapping of an adult.

[papageorge1]

Just now, XenoFish said:

Why am I even here anymore? 

Unless you are willing to be open, I also don't see why you are here.

So as we last left our conversation your point seems to be that you are afraid of being locked up in a padded room (I hope you meant proverbially) because of Christian intolerance in a terrible world of people. I am sure that is not even a correct concise characterization as you bailed already.

[spartan max2]

20 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

She did.  She just went to church because her relatives guilted her for weeks, and they had it planned so that when she did show up they would exorcise her.  She walked in the door, saw how everyone was ready for an exorcism and knew it was her, so she ran out the door and they chased her down the street.

Wow. How did they do the "exorcism"?

[+Desertrat56]

40 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Why am I even here anymore? 

Your experiences and sharing are not useless.  You are just as helpful as anyone.

[XenoFish]

24 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Your experiences and sharing are not useless.  You are just as helpful as anyone.

I'm just done with stuff like this. 

[Habitat]

It is obvious to me that a lot of people on these boards have been harmed by religious ratbaggery, in a family setting. But people are badly affected by any ratbaggery in the family setting, young people are vulnerable, and to have parents or guardians who are not "together" people, on any level, is a fraught situation for the child. This "Christian" fanaticism is largely a USA issue, though, much less common elsewhere.  But the bottom line remains, that whatever lies at the true heart of religion, is not affected  by the dross heaped upon it by the misguided interpretations of others. Because someone claims allegiance to a religion, does not mean they being faithful to it, in the same way that corrupt police are not a reflection on the intent of the law they are supposed to uphold. I think most of tension evident on these boards, reflects a conflict between a deep intuition that there is a kernel of truth in religion, and a rejection of indoctrination that badly misinterprets that truth.

[DieChecker]

5 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Not if they're Christian. They might want to beat the devil out of you. 

They just might. But, IMHO, the days of physically beating people is nearly over. That was my, and my parents, generation, which even neighbors, teachers, and store owners could spank kids.  These people are all near enough too old to go around beating people. And younger people simply will not put up with physical attacks... they will use online social media to "beat" and bully people.

They'd try to twitter/Facebook/Instagram the devil out of you.

 

[+Desertrat56]

45 minutes ago, Habitat said:

It is obvious to me that a lot of people on these boards have been harmed by religious ratbaggery, in a family setting. But people are badly affected by any ratbaggery in the family setting, young people are vulnerable, and to have parents or guardians who are not "together" people, on any level, is a fraught situation for the child. This "Christian" fanaticism is largely a USA issue, though, much less common elsewhere.  But the bottom line remains, that whatever lies at the true heart of religion, is not affected  by the dross heaped upon it by the misguided interpretations of others. Because someone claims allegiance to a religion, does not mean they being faithful to it, in the same way that corrupt police are not a reflection on the intent of the law they are supposed to uphold. I think most of tension evident on these boards, reflects a conflict between a deep intuition that there is a kernel of truth in religion, and a rejection of indoctrination that badly misinterprets that truth.

I think the cognitive dissonance of the religious, like you, caused by your beliefs with no proof or even consensus among believers is the cause of the conflict.  If you were at peace with your beliefs you would not be insisting that you are correct and everyone else is wrong.  But you have something to prove to yourself as much as to anyone else so you continue to insist you know what no one else does.

[DieChecker]

4 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Ahh, I have more trouble understanding that. We don't have forced 'exorcisms' of adults in this country.

We had a crazy, or, possessed, or, true psychic, lady come into our church service on Sunday. She said she wanted help with demons that were troubling her. She also said the grey aliens were after her. I was afraid that if someone attempted some kind of exorcism she might get violent, and I kind of steeled myself to act if I needed to. But then I listened and knew that I should do no such thing. That to just let her go if she had any issue.

It was within my expectation of physically restraining her, but then I knew that would be wrong.

But, I can easily imagine it happening. Especially among the more strict denominations.... 7th Day Adventist, Jehovahs Witness, some Southern Baptist, Mormons...

Ultimately she got some spiritual advise on what to tell demons (Leave in the name of Christ, and such.), and a half pint of holy water. She wasn't happy about it. Because the pastor said the trafficking in the spirits of the dead is divination/necromancy, which the Bible (OT) says is banned.

Edited August 20, 2019 by DieChecker

[+Desertrat56]

6 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

We had a crazy, or, possessed, or, true psychic, lady come into our church service on Sunday. She said she wanted help with demons that were troubling her. She also said the grey aliens were after her. I was afraid that if someone attempted some kind of exorcism she might get violent, and I kind of steeled myself to act if I needed to. But then I listened and knew that I should do no such thing. That to just let her go if she had any issue.

It was within my expectation of physically restraining her, but then I knew that would be wrong.

But, I can easily imagine it happening. Especially among the more strict denominations.... 7th Day Adventist, Jehovahs Witness, some Southern Baptist, Mormons...

Ultimately she got some spiritual advise on what to tell demons (Leave in the name of Christ, and such.), and a half pint of holy water. She wasn't happy about it. Because the pastor said the trafficking in the spirits of the dead is divination/necromancy, which the Bible (OT) says is banned.

A Southern Baptist would Never do an exorcism, that is too Catholic.  They deny any kind of demons or possessions or paranormal as it is the work of the devil and that must be ignored at best, or punished by excommunication.  At least that is the southern baptist attitude I grew up around, deny everything or you are a sinner.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Desertrat56
removed expletive.

[Habitat]

2 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I think the cognitive dissonance of the religious, like you, caused by your beliefs with no proof or even consensus among believers is the cause of the conflict.  If you were at peace with your beliefs you would not be insisting that you are correct and everyone else is wrong.  But you have something to prove to yourself as much as to anyone else so you continue to insist you know what no one else does.

I have all the proof I need, that the "beyond" is real, and a hundred-fold. Otherwise you would not see me here. I am not easy to convince. Were it otherwise, I would be firmly in the "I don't know" camp, and not bother discussing it further. I would not be endlessly trotting out negative opinions on the subject, something that people don't do, unless there is an acceptance at some level, that there is something important at stake. But they are having trouble disentangling what that "something" is, from the propaganda they were fed at an impressionable age. The best way to do that, is just admit the obvious truth, that they really don't know the status of it. The rest will take care of itself. But if they think they can safely judge, on the information available, what the real situation may be, there is no relief in prospect. You won't find the "killer" evidence, but it may find you, though I doubt it ever will, if you fancy yourself as a fit judge, without that evidence.

[DieChecker]

22 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

A Southern Baptist would Never do an exorcism, that is too Catholic.  They deny any kind of demons or possessions or paranormal as it is the work of the devil and that must be ignored at best, or punished by excommunication.  At least that is the southern baptist attitude I grew up around, deny everything or you are a sinner.

I did say some... I've seen atheists post links to Southern Baptist church websites, time after time which say killing gays and others is ok. That kind of anger/hate often turns to violence.

That's all I'm saying. Hate often leads to violence. Even though they'd say they were doing good in doing so.

Were not some of the enforced gay-fixing camps not Southern Baptist, and some Catholic? I'll check, but if they would restrain a gay person, they'd restrain a possessed person also.

Edit: I did find this...

http://www.bpnews.net/50523/exorcists-in-demand--baptists-discuss-demonic-activity

Which says...

Quote

Nonbelievers can be "controlled" or "possessed" by demons, Wellum said, citing Ephesians 2:2. Yet all believers "can resist [Satan]. We have power over him. Satan's power has been defeated at the cross and in the resurrection.

"He no longer can hold death over our heads. He can no longer hold sin over our heads," Wellum said.

So, nonChristians can be possessed, according to Baptist theology. They dont practice exercism though, but they will "liberate" people under demonic influence.

Edited August 21, 2019 by DieChecker

[Alchopwn]

Near death experiences may be merely illusions, but by the same logic, so is life itself.  To paraphrase Chuang Tse, if we dream we are a butterfly, when we awake are we a human who dreamed we were a butterfly or a butterfly dreaming we are human?  Given that every experience in life is largely subjective, yet a measure of objectivity remains possible, how do we establish any objectivity with regards to NDEs?  The answer was brain scans.  So the next and more inportant question is, how come people who had zero brain activity, because they were "dead on the table" were experiencing hallucinations?  That isn't technically possible, and yet...

[psyche101]

11 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

To me, a body of anecdotes considered for quantity, quality and consistency carries weight. You can wave them off if you like but to me that is not logical.

The conclusions are illogical. They are not supported by what we do know to be true. What we have is many people jumping to a conclusion of an afterlife, not evidence one is plausible. 

Quote

Even if verified with personal interviews, then you can ask 'who verified the verifier'. That is why I look for a body of cases. In my readings over the decades it is almost a cliché to hear about how people knew events in the trauma setting that we wouldn't have expected them to know. It is just that these stories in the OP are carrying it one step further to include facts nobody in the trauma area would have even known.

Certainly any one story can be affected by Chinese whispers and that is why I consider the whole body of anecdotes as my interest here is the question 'did these people know things we would not expect them to know normally?'. I have to believe 'yes' and at about 99% by now.

I strongly question that they did know anything. People get overly imaginative when death is a real possibility, or has occurred. Often when people pass away others might see a bird land on a window sill or a butterfly comes in the window and others surmise it's the soipd of the person saying goodbye. Jumping to a conclusion based on superstition is just as illogical and pointless. Its about as helpful as when some proclaimed narwhal horns to be evidence of unicorns. 

[psyche101]

10 hours ago, DieChecker said:

That seems a statistically significant number to me. Given how many people die each year, and cardiac linked deaths leading the way.

81% left over, and as I mentioned the 9% isn't filtered for kooks, misinterpretation and exaggeration. The true number is smaller. 

I'd say that leaves a lot of wiggle room for interpretation. Why do so few experience this phenomenon if its a human condition? 

10 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I'd suggest anecdotes aren't worthless in collecting, but agree they aren't evidence. But they are a point to jump off from to gain evidence. The number of anecdotes gives a rough gage on how prevalent something may be. 

Anything genuinely anomalous will stand out regardless. Hallucinations aren't considered so special when not part of the death process. It seems ridiculous to elevate that due to superstition.

[psyche101]

1 hour ago, Alchopwn said:

Near death experiences may be merely illusions, but by the same logic, so is life itself.  To paraphrase Chuang Tse, if we dream we are a butterfly, when we awake are we a human who dreamed we were a butterfly or a butterfly dreaming we are human?  Given that every experience in life is largely subjective, yet a measure of objectivity remains possible, how do we establish any objectivity with regards to NDEs?  The answer was brain scans.  So the next and more inportant question is, how come people who had zero brain activity, because they were "dead on the table" were experiencing hallucinations?  That isn't technically possible, and yet...

Because the brain is actually still working. It takes longer to shut down than anyone realised. Death is not cardiac arrest anymore. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/science/when-you-die-you-know-youre-dead-because-your-brain-keeps-working-scientist-claims.amp

[Habitat]

The nub of the matter, what need is there to decide whether NDE is, or isn't, some kind of prelude to crossing over to the "other side" ? Only an investment in a position, requires that. The scientific outlook doesn't deal in such investments.

[+Grim Reaper 6]

On 8/19/2019 at 8:45 PM, UM-Bot said:

Some patients who 'died' for a short period have reported things that they couldn't possibly have known about.

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/news/329817/are-near-death-experiences-merely-illusions

Its impossible to prove either way, I know some will argue one point or another. With our current technology science is not advanced enough to definitely say what happens when this happens. 

In my opinion it all comes down to what a person believes.

[papageorge1]

2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

The conclusions are illogical. They are not supported by what we do know to be true. What we have is many people jumping to a conclusion of an afterlife, not evidence one is plausible. 

I certainly believe my conclusions to be logical. You are free to your own of course.

2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

I strongly question that they did know anything. People get overly imaginative when death is a real possibility, or has occurred. Often when people pass away others might see a bird land on a window sill or a butterfly comes in the window and others surmise it's the soipd of the person saying goodbye. Jumping to a conclusion based on superstition is just as illogical and pointless. Its about as helpful as when some proclaimed narwhal horns to be evidence of unicorns. 

And I feel the evidence suggests these people know things that they didn't learn through normal means. The whole point of the OP article was to say it is not unclear signs like butterflies or birds but actually specific real world details that they could not have reasonably learned through normal means. The latter is a much more impressive thing.

[kel_kel]

No.. they are not illusions.. the end..

[+Grim Reaper 6]

2 minutes ago, kel_kel said:

No.. they are not illusions.. the end..

Please tell me why you feel that certain that they are real. I seriously would like to know respectfully.

[psyche101]

4 hours ago, Habitat said:

The nub of the matter, what need is there to decide whether NDE is, or isn't, some kind of prelude to crossing over to the "other side" ?

The quest for greater knowledge, firming understanding of processes that affect our lives and challenge to superstitions undermining science. 

What is your personal need to coerce others into positions of ignorance based on if not ego? 

4 hours ago, Habitat said:

Only an investment in a position, requires that.

No, that's just your butt hurt way of trying to push those who know more than you do away. But all you have done is undermine your own credibility. You are your own worst enemy. 

What sort of an investment do you have to go around attempting to force people into not caring? Why is it so important to you that people think as you want them too? 

4 hours ago, Habitat said:

The scientific outlook doesn't deal in such investments.

Yes it does. YouTube has plenty of debates between scientists and theists. Again, you don't know what your talking about. Your a very arrogant and ignorant individual. Your input to any discussions on this board have only been self serving. 

Why do you have this need to follow around posters who are obviously leagues in front of your understanding trying to convert them? Do you think anyone has ever seen you as more than a kook with no self control?