The Spiritual Heritage of the USA

[Tatetopa]

6 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Are not the gods just something that we wish we could be? How much of ourselves are projected into these gods? How much of our cultures are projected into these gods? A god of war and destruction for a conquering nation? The peace, love, and happiness version of Jesus. How about how individuals see the gods? A god of pain, discipline, suffering and being told that it is god's will that people suffer. We are given gods, create gods, destroy gods. The idea of god is apparently very powerful in the minds of those who believe in them. Even blindingly so. I suppose the idea of a loving deity might ease a troubled mind, so long as it doesn't cause the believer to avoid reality. How about the new gods, money being one of the most power if not the ultimate god? 

I am not very ambitious, so I would settle for being The Death of Rats in Terry Pratchett's Discworld. 

[XenoFish]

Just now, Tatetopa said:

I am not very ambitious, so I would settle for being The Death of Rats in Terry Pratchett's Discworld. 

When I talk about god being an idea. I don't think a lot of people understand what I mean, they just knee jerk react to it. As if it's offensive. Perhaps on some level it is. Even in the absence of a formal religious god, we worship ourselves, others or something abstract in some way, shape, or form. We seem to unconsciously seek a higher ideal. 

[+joc]

13 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

How much of ourselves are projected into these gods?

I would say....100%.

[+joc]

On 8/20/2019 at 12:38 AM, Pettytalk said:

Perhaps I should have "emphasized" that the thread's theme is the "Spiritual,"

The King of England was Catholic.  We were His subjects abroad.  We didn't like being his subjects.  Our founding was based on the desire to be free...not the desire to be spiritual.  People have believed strongly in God for thousands and thousands of years...all over the planet.  Not surprising that God made a showing in Government shrines.  No one bled and died on the battlefields for anything 'spiritual'.  They bled and died for Freedom.

[ellapenella]

9 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Bible history covers only a fraction of all the nations that ever existed.  In fact, I think it only covers the fall of one nation (Babylon) and then only touches on its eventual conquest by the Persians.

Noah, according to the Bible, survived a flood around 2400 BC and his grandson was born after that.  The problem with your statement is that the ancient Egyptians were writing all sorts of documents long before 2400 BC and continued writing through 2400 BC and beyond with no interruption.  So... Mizraim has nothing to do with the Egyptians and there is nothing about nations failing because of lack of life-giving floods, corruption among officials, and a disagreement over who succeeded the pharaoh so great that the high priests of the god of the land usurped them (followed a long time later by a descendant of their conqueror selling them to another nation.

So it doesn't match any account of the fall of Babylon.

I don't see any nation in the Bible that failed because of population shift, trade route collapse, drought, and invasion as four factors.   So it is not a match for the Biblical account of the end of Babylon.

They conquered too much territory to hold, they disagreed about who should succeed Genghis Khan, and then the Black Plague struck.  No match there.

There's actually no real alignment.  We have nations collapsing because of multiple factors, including invasion by neighbors.

 

So then, you're skimming history and you're not considering  what  American Exceptionalism is.  This is near the point I was hinting at. Do you understand what American Exceptionalism consist of? 

[ellapenella]

9 hours ago, joc said:

The King of England was Catholic.  We were His subjects abroad.  We didn't like being his subjects.  Our founding was based on the desire to be free...not the desire to be spiritual.  People have believed strongly in God for thousands and thousands of years...all over the planet.  Not surprising that God made a showing in Government shrines.  No one bled and died on the battlefields for anything 'spiritual'.  They bled and died for Freedom.

We all owe Our Founding Fathers a debt of gratitude. They pledged their lives, their fortunes, their sacred honor to win our freedom in the 18th century. They fought to end slavery in the 19th century and in the 20th century to protect us from tyrants and global threats. 

The ideas that our Founders look to , to build not only their churches, their families, but to build our nation, to build our civil institutions and our economic institutions , they looked to the bible . There are political documents that prove to anyone our founding fathers look to God and the bible because they knew man's nature  alone could never be trusted.  As we all know ideas have consequences.

[ellapenella]

9 hours ago, joc said:

The King of England was Catholic.  We were His subjects abroad.  We didn't like being his subjects.  Our founding was based on the desire to be free...not the desire to be spiritual.  People have believed strongly in God for thousands and thousands of years...all over the planet.  Not surprising that God made a showing in Government shrines.  No one bled and died on the battlefields for anything 'spiritual'.  They bled and died for Freedom.

America is a Christian Nation . We are not an ecclesiastical nation like  Europe where the church ruled. The founders of America fled to America to escape the tyranny of state mandated religion, but they did not leave their own faith behind, they brought Christianity with them to America. We do not have a state establishment with a church  and a Christian nation is not always a nation whereas 100% or the majority  are christian, the majority is not what makes a Christian nation. The source of the ideas upon which the nation is founded on are rooted in the scriptures. Every nation is built upon a set of ideas or principles that are ultimately rooted in the faith of the people . All nations are religious but it's easy to show that America was founded upon biblical principles. 

 

[Kenemet]

3 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

So then, you're skimming history and you're not considering  what  American Exceptionalism is.  This is near the point I was hinting at. Do you understand what American Exceptionalism consist of? 

I don't think I'm skimming history.  I teach some of these subjects.  The factors I listed were those that caused the nations to fall.  And there's a single instance in the Bible of a nation falling, and that was Babylon - there's no correlation with Babylon to any of the nations I listed or indeed many other nations.  

Nations don't fall because people refuse to worship a certain deity or because they change their religion (Rome and Great Britain are certainly proof of this, as are the Islamic nations.)  Nations don't fall because the people suddenly become "weak and corrupt".  They fall because of bad leadership, failure to keep up with the military devices and practices of the most dominant nations, climate change that brings famine and drought, overextension of economic and military resources (Rome and certainly Egypt at some time periods).

Even Babylon fell because of internal revolts and bad decisions by the king (who also tried to institute a state religion) and the rise of a warlord (Cyrus the Great) to control the large Persian Empire.  With revolts and chaos in Babylon, it was easy prey for the large army of Cyrus.

"American Exceptionalism" can mean 1) The first is that the history of the United States is inherently different from those of other nations, or 2) the US has a unique mission to transform the world, or 3) the United States' history and mission give it a superiority over other nations.  (definitions from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism  ...also  http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/American_exceptionalism ) 

So which of those did you have in mind?

Frankly, the history of every nation is unique, so #1 really fails, IMHO.  As to "has a unique mission to transform the world" - that could be said of other civilizations as well, particularly those bent on conquest.  The Crusades, for instance, were bent on transforming the world (even the Crusades that took place against other Christians.)  This does not make this idea right or desirable.  As to the third, again, it's not unique because this could be said of Rome, of Britain,of China, of Japan, and a lot of other places... who have been at the "change the world" business a lot longer than the United States.

 

[Kenemet]

12 hours ago, joc said:

The King of England was Catholic.  We were His subjects abroad.  We didn't like being his subjects.  Our founding was based on the desire to be free...not the desire to be spiritual.  People have believed strongly in God for thousands and thousands of years...all over the planet.  Not surprising that God made a showing in Government shrines.  No one bled and died on the battlefields for anything 'spiritual'.  They bled and died for Freedom.

Actually the King of England was Anglican.

Remember, Henry the 8th (200 years before the first group landed on the shores of America) rejected Catholicism so he could divorce and marry his multiple wives (the Pope wouldn't let him divorce or remarry.)  By the time that the British established colonies in America, there had been a very bloody war over this religious issue (remember Mary, Queen of Scots?) and people were executed for following the Catholic faith.

And the revolt was over taxes without any representation.  We didn't like being a colony with no power or voice in our own government.

[+joc]

17 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Actually the King of England was Anglican.

Remember, Henry the 8th (200 years before the first group landed on the shores of America) rejected Catholicism so he could divorce and marry his multiple wives (the Pope wouldn't let him divorce or remarry.)  By the time that the British established colonies in America, there had been a very bloody war over this religious issue (remember Mary, Queen of Scots?) and people were executed for following the Catholic faith.

And the revolt was over taxes without any representation.  We didn't like being a colony with no power or voice in our own government.

I never was a history buff.  Glad some of you are though! 

My point is still intact however;

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Our founding was based on the desire to be free...not the desire to be spiritual.

 

[+Liquid Gardens]

22 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

Do you understand what American Exceptionalism consist of? 

Confirmation bias, and really weird insecurity.

[ellapenella]

2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Confirmation bias, and really weird insecurity.

Your statement is False, you are incorrect. You do not know nor do you appear to understand what American Exceptionalism is. 

[+Liquid Gardens]

17 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

Your statement is False, you are incorrect. You do not know nor do you appear to understand what American Exceptionalism is. 

Nor do you seem to understand what a 'Founding Father' is, since you mistakenly think they fought to protect us from tyrants in the 20th century.  Did they do this fighting as ghosts or as zombies, since they were all long dead by then?

To your point Kenemet already responded with different definitions of what American Exceptionalism can mean; what's your definition?

[Stubbly_Dooright]

If I am to understand American Exceptiaonalism  then, it does seem to fall on varying ideals, from different outlooks and political parties, and I see some of these not on the same ideals that I think the U.S. was founded on. If one particular outlook of this, is to see the U.S. turn to a particular Christian religious country legally, then I think it goes against what the First admendment is brought about to protect. 

It also seems to tell me, (if I’m getting this right) that it’s believed the U.S. can be independent without needing to depend on other countries. But, we do, don’t we? 

I cannot see the U.S. as being a Christian nation, if it’s considered a Christian nation legally. Is this the case, that the U.S. is considered a legal Christian nation? If so, where is it sourced in the laws, that it’s so? 

If I look at it another way, it seems any particular first world country could feel that exceptialism. Didn’t Britain in the 19th century? Or, I could be wrong. *shrugs* 

[+Desertrat56]

1 hour ago, Ellapennella said:

Your statement is False, you are incorrect. You do not know nor do you appear to understand what American Exceptionalism is. 

You should read the whole wikipedia article instead of going off half cocked thinking some 19th century scholar knew what he was talking about when in fact he was showing his arrogance and ignorance about the rest of the world. 

Quote

However,

postnationalist scholars have rejected American exceptionalism, arguing the U.S. did not break from European history, and accordingly, the U.S. has retained class-based and race-based differences, as well as imperialism and willingness to wage war.^[12] 

I agree with the postnationalist scholars who accept that we just brought Europe to the new world with very little change in attitude.  In fact, nowdays Euopeans seem to be more progressive than the U.S.  And yes, Australians and Canadians and even British have some words in their laws that seem to have come from the U.S. founders ideas of freedom so maybe the whole world is "evolving" together in some way.  Like Australia, Canada, South Africa and others, the U.S. is still a british colony, its just we think we got our independence first and on the books, we did. 

P.S.  I forgot to say this, "Where do you think our founders came from?  They did not stray far from their roots in reality, just worked hard to draft a document that would keep the british at bay."

Edited August 23, 2019 by Desertrat56

[ellapenella]

On 8/22/2019 at 11:42 AM, Kenemet said:

I don't think I'm skimming history.  I teach some of these subjects.  The factors I listed were those that caused the nations to fall.  And there's a single instance in the Bible of a nation falling, and that was Babylon - there's no correlation with Babylon to any of the nations I listed or indeed many other nations.  

 

The mother of all Harlots. The moral decline of people. You don't think you've skip over anything?

 

Quote

Nations don't fall because people refuse to worship a certain deity or because they change their religion (Rome and Great Britain are certainly proof of this, as are the Islamic nations.)  Nations don't fall because the people suddenly become "weak and corrupt".  They fall because of bad leadership, failure to keep up with the military devices and practices of the most dominant nations, climate change that brings famine and drought, overextension of economic and military resources (Rome and certainly Egypt at some time periods).

Nations fall morally first , they loose control from there, how long it takes depends on the people, for example America has had bad leadership in the past , thank God for President Trump.

Quote

 

Even Babylon fell because of internal revolts and bad decisions by the king (who also tried to institute a state religion) and the rise of a warlord (Cyrus the Great) to control the large Persian Empire.  With revolts and chaos in Babylon, it was easy prey for the large army of Cyrus.

 

Ancient Babylon fell because it was an  sinful , idolatrous,  immoral kingdom .  What do you know about the relationship between ancient Babylon and God's people? and also, the relationship involving  Mystery Babylon and God's people?  God told his people to come out of her, Mystery Babylon the mother of all *****s , I think it's bigger than one Nation.

 

Quote

"American Exceptionalism" can mean 1) The first is that the history of the United States is inherently different from those of other nations, or 2) the US has a unique mission to transform the world, or 3) the United States' history and mission give it a superiority over other nations.  (definitions from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism  ...also  http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/American_exceptionalism ) 

So which of those did you have in mind?

Frankly, the history of every nation is unique, so #1 really fails, IMHO.  As to "has a unique mission to transform the world" - that could be said of other civilizations as well, particularly those bent on conquest.  The Crusades, for instance, were bent on transforming the world (even the Crusades that took place against other Christians.)  This does not make this idea right or desirable.  As to the third, again, it's not unique because this could be said of Rome, of Britain,of China, of Japan, and a lot of other places... who have been at the "change the world" business a lot longer than the United States.

 

 

 You gave similar views of both 1 & 3. 

I think that God had plans for America to be right where America is . 

[+Desertrat56]

23 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

thank God for President Trump.

[ellapenella]

On 8/21/2019 at 10:05 PM, Kenemet said:

Bible history covers only a fraction of all the nations that ever existed.  In fact, I think it only covers the fall of one nation (Babylon) and then only touches on its eventual conquest by the Persians.

 

  The bible mentions more than one nation that fell.  Judah was a nation that fell, they were taken into captivity just like the Northern kingdom Israel.

 

Quote

Noah, according to the Bible, survived a flood around 2400 BC and his grandson was born after that.  The problem with your statement is that the ancient Egyptians were writing all sorts of documents long before 2400 BC and continued writing through 2400 BC and beyond with no interruption.  So... Mizraim has nothing to do with the Egyptians and there is nothing about nations failing because of lack of life-giving floods, corruption among officials, and a disagreement over who succeeded the pharaoh so great that the high priests of the god of the land usurped them (followed a long time later by a descendant of their conqueror selling them to another nation.

So it doesn't match any account of the fall of Babylon.

 

But,  there's a problem  with the timeline of Egypt. 

 

 

Quote

 I don't see any nation in the Bible that failed because of population shift, trade route collapse, drought, and invasion as four factors.   So it is not a match for the Biblical account of the end of Babylon

The bible doesn't say anything about population control, instead it says for humans to be fruitful and multiply.  I don't know if trade routes were ever boycotted or what . Invasion and drought I would say are in the bible. 

Quote

They conquered too much territory to hold, they disagreed about who should succeed Genghis Khan, and then the Black Plague struck.  No match there.

So much war, why? 

Quote

There's actually no real alignment.  We have nations collapsing because of multiple factors, including invasion by neighbors.

But there is, if nations at least tried to  live accordingly in obedience under  God's Laws there would not be any cause for wars. The great commission Jesus gave is the closest understanding to what God's Laws for mankind to live life fully and more abundantly. The other is all that which you don't see any connection to God with.

 

 

Quote

 

https://www.compellingtruth.org/religion-cause-wars.html

The Encyclopedia seems to be somewhat... contrived?  You can see that from just the European wars documented on Wikipedia and doesn't cover wars elsewhere. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war#Timeline

The idea that "moral collapse" brings about wars doesn't seem to have much of a basis.  Drought and disease don't seem very moral... and if the test was morality, ancient Egypt would still be here and would have taken over most of the world, with its laws (far older than Christianity or Judaism) involving Ma'at and Greece (with its legalized and enforced culture of pederasty (men were encouraged to train boys by taking them as lovers; a civilization-wide practice) wouldn't have lasted more than 50 years and Sparta (with its culture of death (things like encouraging boys to go out and kill slaves and peasants as proof of their manhood)) would have been obliterated during the reign of its first king -- instead of lasting for 800 years.

 

 

 

The myth that religion is the cause for so many wars is false. We've just discussed how kingdoms fall and yet they fall not because of religion but because of something outside of God's Law. Those outside of God's Law create all the many wars we've read about not people living for God. 

Is religion really the cause of most wars? Is there anything in the Bible about this?

The Cause of Wars

Historical Facts about Wars

According to Philip and Axelrod’s three-volume Encyclopedia of Wars, there have been over 1,700 wars fought in human history. Of these, the authors include only 123 of them as being related to a religious cause. Astonishingly, that is less than seven percent of them all. About half of those wars were as a result of Islam (66) so if you subtract these wars, then only about 3 percent of all wars were the result a Christian cause.

The Encyclopedia of Wars, published in 2008 had the same number of wars listed and also the same percentage for wars stemming from a religious cause (only 7 percent, but 3.6 percent, minus Islam) so doesn’t that seem strange that biblical skeptics love to turn the facts the other way around or make the least of those that cause wars (religious groups), the leading maker of wars (which is really communism). The facts say that the worst killers of human beings aren’t Christians; the source for the deadliest human killers is the atheistic governments controlled by godless, atheistic men? Under Joseph Stalin, over 42 million were murdered or caused to die; under the iron hand of China’s communist leader, Moa Zedong, almost 38 million were exterminated and much of the time, the Christians were the ones to die!

https://bcnn1wp.wordpress.com/2015/12/28/the-bible-and-historians-agree-religion-is-not-the-cause-of-most-wars/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[XenoFish]

The goal post keeps moving in this thread. 

[Tatetopa]

On 8/22/2019 at 8:42 AM, Kenemet said:

"American Exceptionalism" can mean 1) The first is that the history of the United States is inherently different from those of other nations, or 2) the US has a unique mission to transform the world, or 3) the United States' history and mission give it a superiority over other nations.  (definitions from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism  ...also  http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/American_exceptionalism ) 

How about 4) A nifty catch phrase to justify just about any action of a republic that is not governed by a monarch who can claim "Divine Right of Kings"?

[Tatetopa]

2 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

Nations fall morally first , they loose control from there, how long it takes depends on the people, for example America has had bad leadership in the past , thank God for President Trump.

Indeed, we have had some bad leaders in the past, I am thankful to see what a really bad leader is for comparison.  Every nation needs a false prophet who will challenge the society's ideals and drag it to the very edge of ruin and moral decay.  We will be stronger and more sure of our values when we climb back out of the Trump morass.  With luck, like Noah, we might even be able to preserve a few animal species.   I hope we save honey bees.  We need them for pollination of a great many food crops, and also, I like to make kead.

[+Desertrat56]

2 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

The mother of all Harlots. The moral decline of people. You don't think you've skip over anything?

 

Nations fall morally first , they loose control from there, how long it takes depends on the people, for example America has had bad leadership in the past , thank God for President Trump.

Ancient Babylon fell because it was an  sinful , idolatrous,  immoral kingdom .  What do you know about the relationship between ancient Babylon and God's people? and also, the relationship involving  Mystery Babylon and God's people?  God told his people to come out of her, Mystery Babylon the mother of all *****s , I think it's bigger than one Nation.

 

 

 You gave similar views of both 1 & 3. 

I think that God had plans for America to be right where America is . 

You already used all of this in a response to someone else.  Maybe you are a bot and someone is entertaining themselves with your crazy posts.

[Jodie.Lynne]

5 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

thank God for President Trump.

Why am I completely unsurprised that you favor the Oompa-Loompa?

How do you feel about, now that he is wrapping himself in the mantle of "King of the Jews"?

[Jodie.Lynne]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

The goal post keeps moving in this thread. 

Because we are dealing with a fundamentalist zealot. 

Or a complete troll, since she seems to be hitting all the typical theist arguments.

 

I'm just waiting for the "Atheists KNOW there is a god, but deny him so they can go on sinning" argument.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Jodie.Lynne

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Because we are dealing with a fundamentalist zealot. 

Or a complete troll, since she seems to be hitting all the typical theist arguments.

 

I'm just waiting for the "Atheists KNOW there is a god, but deny him so they can go on sinning" argument.

I don't even care anymore and these discussion are starting to not bother me much. You have fun okay.