The Spiritual Heritage of the USA

[Piney]

On 8/22/2019 at 8:11 AM, Ellapennella said:

We all owe Our Founding Fathers a debt of gratitude. They pledged their lives, their fortunes, their sacred honor to win our freedom in the 18th century. They fought to end slavery in the 19th century and in the 20th century to protect us from tyrants and global threats. 

The Quakers started the anti-slavery movement. The Founding Fathers were all dead by then. 

[Kenemet]

5 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

  The bible mentions more than one nation that fell.  Judah was a nation that fell, they were taken into captivity just like the Northern kingdom Israel.

But,  there's a problem  with the timeline of Egypt. 

The real problem is that you expect someone to sit through two hours of video which will answer one point that you've made.  

Now, I might be mistaken, but I seriously doubt that you'll sit through two hours of university lecture (with notes and references) on ancient Egyptian history.  So if you would please simply list what you think is so important.

I'm not sure this man's "problem with the timeline of Egypt" is going to be accurate... because we have cross-sourced the Egyptian timeline with the timeline of other nations.

 

 

Quote

But there is, if nations at least tried to  live accordingly in obedience under  God's Laws there would not be any cause for wars. The great commission Jesus gave is the closest understanding to what God's Laws for mankind to live life fully and more abundantly. The other is all that which you don't see any connection to God with.

Well, given that today's Christians don't live "in obedience under God's Laws" I have a problem with the "no cause for wars" idea.  There are 613 laws in the Bible and Christians ignore almost all of them (only the most observant Jews and certain Muslim sects actually keep them.)  

But let's take a look at those laws that will change a nation from "deadly sin and going to fall into corruption" into "blessed.  In order to comply with God's laws, this nation would execute people who work on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:14)

And would stone to death any teenager who swore at their parents and ran away (even if the parent was abusive) Deuteronomy 21:20-21

And mandate their church to constantly have a fire burning on the altar Leviticus 6:13 

And mandate the nation to perform twice daily burnt offerings: Numbers 28:3 

And pass laws saying that women having their periods are impure and pollute everything and that they must seclude themselves for seven days: Leviticus 15:19

And remove leavened bread from the house during certain times: Exodus 12:15

And all decisions/rules must be approved by the majority (not the House of Representatives... the majority of people) Exodus 23:2

And destroy all traces of other religions  Deuteronomy 12:2

And women have to marry their rapists Deuteronomy 22:29

No statues of human beings (goodbye presidential portraits) Exodus 20:4

People who make predictions that don't come true will be executed: Deuteronomy 18:20

Not wearing blended fabrics Deuteronomy 22:11

(all sorts of rules about slaves, indicating slavery is just fine)

... and so forth for 613 laws: http://gods-word-first.org/bible-study/613commandments.html

 

Now... nations that have kept those laws didn't prosper and were overthrown.  So I don't see how you can claim that nations that follow these Biblical laws will flourish and continue to flourish when the evidence of history shows that they haven't.

 

Quote

The Cause of Wars

Historical Facts about Wars

 

Repeating this isn't helping your cause.  If you have a point where you disagree, do take the time to discuss it.

 

[Jodie.Lynne]

20 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

... and so forth for 613 laws: http://gods-word-first.org/bible-study/613commandments.html

 

I agree with your assessment, but the 'twue Christians" will mumble some nonsensical statement that "Jesus "fulfilled *" the law, and there is a whole new covenant, and we don't have to obey the old laws, except the ones we like, like 'gods hates fags'".

 

* Question: How does one 'fulfill' a law? If Kenemet stops at a stop sign, has he fulfilled the law, so that I don't have to stop at that sign?

Also, since Jesus claims to have come NOT to change any part of "God's Laws", how is it that Christians believe the law has been eradicated?

[+Pettytalk]

There is much to say about a nation's religious heritage when it's written on its money.  As they say, "Put your money where your mouth is."  Or differently put, "Put your money where your heart and mind is."

How many times is the word, God, mentioned in the US Constitution? Zero. How many times a day is the US constitution read on a daily basis? 100,000?

How many times does the word God show up in the hands of people just in USA, and on a daily basis? Billions?

 

[ellapenella]

9 hours ago, Kenemet said:

The real problem is that you expect someone to sit through two hours of video which will answer one point that you've made.  

Now, I might be mistaken, but I seriously doubt that you'll sit through two hours of university lecture (with notes and references) on ancient Egyptian history.  So if you would please simply list what you think is so important.

I'm not sure this man's "problem with the timeline of Egypt" is going to be accurate... because we have cross-sourced the Egyptian timeline with the timeline of other nations.

 

 

Well, given that today's Christians don't live "in obedience under God's Laws" I have a problem with the "no cause for wars" idea.  There are 613 laws in the Bible and Christians ignore almost all of them (only the most observant Jews and certain Muslim sects actually keep them.)  

But let's take a look at those laws that will change a nation from "deadly sin and going to fall into corruption" into "blessed.  In order to comply with God's laws, this nation would execute people who work on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:14)

And would stone to death any teenager who swore at their parents and ran away (even if the parent was abusive) Deuteronomy 21:20-21

And mandate their church to constantly have a fire burning on the altar Leviticus 6:13 

And mandate the nation to perform twice daily burnt offerings: Numbers 28:3 

And pass laws saying that women having their periods are impure and pollute everything and that they must seclude themselves for seven days: Leviticus 15:19

And remove leavened bread from the house during certain times: Exodus 12:15

And all decisions/rules must be approved by the majority (not the House of Representatives... the majority of people) Exodus 23:2

And destroy all traces of other religions  Deuteronomy 12:2

And women have to marry their rapists Deuteronomy 22:29

No statues of human beings (goodbye presidential portraits) Exodus 20:4

People who make predictions that don't come true will be executed: Deuteronomy 18:20

Not wearing blended fabrics Deuteronomy 22:11

(all sorts of rules about slaves, indicating slavery is just fine)

... and so forth for 613 laws: http://gods-word-first.org/bible-study/613commandments.html

 

Now... nations that have kept those laws didn't prosper and were overthrown.  So I don't see how you can claim that nations that follow these Biblical laws will flourish and continue to flourish when the evidence of history shows that they haven't.

 

 

Repeating this isn't helping your cause.  If you have a point where you disagree, do take the time to discuss it.

 

 I utilized my personal dictionary to better help explain why I asked for you to compare nations and the fall of nations even to  this day by looking at it through a biblical understanding as did America's Founding Fathers.   

 

I agree with you in stating that some nations destroy themselves thou I see the world differently than just cut and dry, I  live in this world  with  a  perspective understanding in  knowing  what the will of God means. 

 

You say that there is only one mention of a nation that fell in the bible, that is just not so.

 

 

The English bible has a number of synonyms for "nations" such as "Gentiles", "heathens", "pagans", and "peoples". When the various Heb. and Greek words occur in the plural, "nations" is usually the most accurate translation.The term "people" is found very frequently in the singular referring to the nation or people of Israel.

In the scriptures God declares that he has chosen Israel to be "a Holy people ... a people for his own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth."

The first book of the bible list 70 nations or ethnic groups while the last book foretells that in the end time a vast throng from every nation and all tribes and peoples and languages will stand before the thrown of God. This interest in surrounding nations indicates the importance of history in the Bible as a vehicle of revelation. The fact that it's historical data is uniformly accurate is unique in the world's sacred literature. 

In the Old Testament (OT) two main Heb. words are rendered "nation" in the KJV. The most frequent (557 times in Heb.. 373 times in KJV ) is goy (plural goyim),"people",nation,the whole population of a territory.This word stresses the impersonal political and social aspects rather than kinship bonds. It is the state ,the institution of a nationhood,the masses of humanity. To the Jew it can mean specifically the Gentiles,the heathen, in contrast to Israel or Judah. Israel is called a goy after it became a nation with laws and government at Mount Sinai, but implied is a similarity to the idolatrous Gentiles in their disobedience to God and backsliding, The Heb word 'am occurs 17 times in the KJV as "nation" and 1,835 times as "people."  The term originally stressed close family relationships as a clan. In Heb. it ranges in meaning from the people around an individual to people of a town, to a tribe, to a nation, to all mankind. Heb. 'am suggests a group of individuals, of persons with common blood ties.not a regimented organization

 " 'People' and 'Nation'  of Israel ".  Soon after the Exodus the term ha'am, "the people" was applied almost exclusively to Israel as the chosen people of Yahweh. Thus 'am and goy became nearly opposite terms, Israelites and non Israelites, as in rabbinical literature.

The biblical phrase  ' am  ha ' ares , "people of the land".In pre -Exilic times it meant the qualified male citizens  of the locality, the men who crowned the king,who were specially  taxed for the tribute to Egypt,and who owned slaves. In the post-Exilic period this term was applied by those returning from Babylon to those already residing in the land of Judah.

In the NT Gr, ethnos is translated "nation"64 times and "Gentiles" 93 times in the KJV. The latter word is used when the reference is to non Jewish nations. "Nations" is employed when the reference is to all  nations including the Jews. Gr. laos (143 times) is always rendered "people"; in the LXX it is the equivalent of Heb.'am in the singular. Another Gr. word, ochlos,"crowd" or "multitude" is translated 83 times as "people" in the KJV. Demos., "populace,people," occurs in Acts.

 

Note that I did not expect you to be able to view the cause of concern in an inaccurate timeline whereas the world is expected to just except it as is ... what is presented will take a while to understand . I myself am still viewing it and researching it. Likewise it is not to be expected for me or any other person to just believe the old timeline when it is being challenged with archaeological proof. . 

Edited August 24, 2019 by Ellapennella
edit to fix last paragraph

[+Pettytalk]

On 8/21/2019 at 1:26 PM, XenoFish said:

Where did God come from? What matter existed in order to create God and how did that matter exist before God did?

Only fools ask where God came from or what created God. God is the First Principle. And from God all things come. It's like that saying, "The buck stops here."

[ellapenella]

14 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

There is much to say about a nation's religious heritage when it's written on its money.  As they say, "Put your money where your mouth is."  Or differently put, "Put your money where your heart and mind is."

How many times is the word, God, mentioned in the US Constitution? Zero. How many times a day is the US constitution read on a daily basis? 100,000?

How many times does the word God show up in the hands of people just in USA, and on a daily basis? Billions?

 

Ironically  people who claim to be Americans would like to collapse our economy.  

 

[+Pettytalk]

On 8/21/2019 at 9:09 AM, Kenemet said:

America has only been around for about 243 years now.  That's 1/700th the amount of time of ancient Egypt

243 X 700 = 170,100 years.

[+joc]

21 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

maybe the whole world is "evolving" together in some way. 

Here is the whole dill pickle in a nutshell:

You and I meet together on a road...all alone.  Just the two of us. We walk down the road together.  We come to a fork in the road...you want to go one way but I want to go the other way.   You can take you me as your prisoner and force me to go down your road....that's tyranny.  I can walk with you down the road you choose abandoning my own desires not knowing where your road is going.  That is blind following.  We can hug and go down our separate roads wishing each other the best...that is Freedom.

The whole world is evolving through Blind Following into Socialism.   Because the blind don't understand that the road of Socialism leads to the Capitol of Tyranny.   

[Kenemet]

38 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

243 X 700 = 170,100 years.

Yipe!

Good catch  Leopards apparently can't do math when they're distracted!

[+Pettytalk]

On 8/21/2019 at 6:40 PM, Tatetopa said:

Back to the OP's initial claim of Spiritual heritage for the US; architecture such as our monuments seems to figure prominently in the statement..  Are not many of those based on Greek and Roman architectural ideals?  Their inspiration seems to be temples to a number of gods in a pantheon, either Greek or Roman.  Then there is the Washington monument which rather smacks of the Egyptian influence, spiritual but definitely not Christian.

No doubt I will prompt more laughs and scorn for this, but all those things were meant to be built as they were, including the art, due to the Atlantis theme. The USA is really Atlantis, and those things are there to corroborate the story of Atlantis. It's no joke, the one and only God, everyone's God, wrote the story. All the details of the story are represented in the Americas initially, to then focalize on the first-born, the USA, and for which the whole "island" was named. For instance, the obelisk at the Washington monument represents the staged story origin, Egypt. A fitting monument to the first-born, Atlas.Washington being the first president of the first-born independent nation in the "island" of America(s) which officially became two when the Panama canal was cut at the isthmus.

Bit this is meat for an Atlantis thread, although it actually covers this subject too.

[+Pettytalk]

8 minutes ago, joc said:

Here is the whole dill pickle in a nutshell:

You and I meet together on a road...all alone.  Just the two of us. We walk down the road together.  We come to a fork in the road...you want to go one way but I want to go the other way.   You can take you me as your prisoner and force me to go down your road....that's tyranny.  I can walk with you down the road you choose abandoning my own desires not knowing where your road is going.  That is blind following.  We can hug and go down our separate roads wishing each other the best...that is Freedom.

The whole world is evolving through Blind Following into Socialism.   Because the blind don't understand that the road of Socialism leads to the Capitol of Tyranny.   

Joc, actually it's Democracy the most fertile ground from which tyranny arises. Although socialism has sprouted one or two tyrants also. But then, Democracy and Socialism are branches of the same tree, and perhaps their main divergent point is their economical foundation, one is capitalistic, and the other is more communistic.

When you get to deduct the cost of raising 5 children from your income taxes, and I with only two can deduct less, to then you using the public school system for 5 and I for two, there is something socialistic in our democracy. Just an example, as I don't know if or how many kids you have.

But you example is rather simple, and does not consider other factors that would persuade you to follow someone, or someone following you.

[rashore]

1 hour ago, Pettytalk said:

There is much to say about a nation's religious heritage when it's written on its money.  As they say, "Put your money where your mouth is."  Or differently put, "Put your money where your heart and mind is."

How many times is the word, God, mentioned in the US Constitution? Zero. How many times a day is the US constitution read on a daily basis? 100,000?

How many times does the word God show up in the hands of people just in USA, and on a daily basis? Billions?

 

That isn't a founding father or heritage thing either.... that was done in 1956 during the cold war to make the U.S. seem more different than the communists. It was a fear response to the cold war.

[+Pettytalk]

1 minute ago, rashore said:

That isn't a founding father or heritage thing either.... that was done in 1956 during the cold war to make the U.S. seem more different than the communists. It was a fear response to the cold war.

Are you saying that "In God we trust" did not appear on our money before 1956?

[Habitat]

No, it was a lot earlier than 1956, but by 1956 it was mandated on all coins and notes.

[+Pettytalk]

[+Pettytalk]

[Kenemet]

1 hour ago, Ellapennella said:

 I utilized my personal dictionary to better help explain why I asked for you to compare nations and the fall of nations even to  this day by looking at it through a biblical understanding as did America's Founding Fathers.   

 

They all had very different views, as expressed in their writing... and they don't seem to have turned to the Bible for understanding nations.  The code was built on the English system of laws and on laws from the Iroquois and other northern tribes.

Quote

I agree with you in stating that some nations destroy themselves thou I see the world differently than just cut and dry, I  live in this world  with  a  perspective understanding in  knowing  what the will of God means. 

 

You say that there is only one mention of a nation that fell in the bible, that is just not so.

 

The English bible has a number of synonyms for "nations" such as "Gentiles", "heathens", "pagans", and "peoples". When the various Heb. and Greek words occur in the plural, "nations" is usually the most accurate translation.The term "people" is found very frequently in the singular referring to the nation or people of Israel.

In the scriptures God declares that he has chosen Israel to be "a Holy people ... a people for his own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth."The first book of the bible list 70 nations or ethnic groups while the last book foretells that in the end time a vast throng from every nation and all tribes and peoples and languages will stand before the thrown of God.

I looked up (or tried to) the list of 70 nations and found a partial list, and the ones that are named don't support your statement about the reason that they fell was due to the nation "turning from God."  Almost none of these nations followed Jewish law (or ever had a significant number of Jews) and the cause of their fall wasn't "turning from the Judaeo-Christian god" or "moral decay" of the people.  Instead, the cause was weak leadership (not the fault of the people), drought, floods, overextension of resources, invasion by neighboring states, and sometimes even acquisition by treaty or (in the case of Egypt) having the ruler sell the country to another country.

Furthermore, the nations that strictly followed Jewish law collapsed (and weren't that long-lived) from exactly those same factors... none of which involved the morality of the people or turning from the Judaeo-Christian god.

Quote

In the Old Testament (OT) two main Heb. words are rendered "nation" in the KJV. The most frequent (557 times in Heb.. 373 times in KJV ) is goy (plural goyim),"people",nation,the whole population of a territory.This word stresses the impersonal political and social aspects rather than kinship bonds. It is the state ,the institution of a nationhood,the masses of humanity. To the Jew it can mean specifically the Gentiles,the heathen, in contrast to Israel or Judah. Israel is called a goy after it became a nation with laws and government at Mount Sinai, but implied is a similarity to the idolatrous Gentiles in their disobedience to God and backsliding,

Israel was swallowed up by other kingdoms led by warlords, beginning with the Achminead Persians after existing for a mere 300 years or so.  : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah

Like other conquered states, they achieve some brief independence during periods when there's a problem of succession in the conquering kingdom or when a particularly weak king who's uninterested in foreign affairs ascends that throne.  These revolts are successful but temporary.  They only last until the conquerors settle their affairs at home and reach out to reclaim small client kingdoms that have broken away.

It has nothing to do with who they worship or which laws they follow or whether their people are "corrupt" or "uncorrupt."  The Maccabees, for instance, were very religious and artifacts show that they very tightly adhered to the Biblical laws, but they were no match for the Romans (whose empire was far more successful than the Israelite nation)

Quote

Note that I did not expect you to be able to view the cause of concern in an inaccurate timeline whereas the world is expected to just except it as is ... what is presented will take a while to understand . I myself am still viewing it and researching it. Likewise it is not to be expected for me or any other person to just believe the old timeline when it is being challenged with archaeological proof. . 

Surely there's some sort of text explanation somewhere.  

Videos LOOK (and "feel") right to us... but the information flows past so quickly that you don't stop and check in the way you do when you're reading text.  In text, if someone makes a wild claim (like I did with the 1/700th back there), someone can step in and say "you know, that doesn't look right" (as Petty did) and check the math (as Petty did.)  If you heard it in conversation, you wouldn't have the time to say "whoa!  wait!  Let's check that!" before getting caught up in the next statement.

I think if you read what the guy had to say and started to check other sources, you are going to find he's not as convincing as he thinks he is.

[+Pettytalk]

How far back in time in our young nation's history can we go so that we can we say it's heritage for us of the year 2019 AD?

The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout persons throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins. From Treasury Department records, it appears that the first such appeal came in a letter dated November 13, 1861. It was written to Secretary Chase by Rev. M. R. Watkinson, Minister of the Gospel from Ridleyville, Pennsylvania, and read:

Dear Sir: You are about to submit your annual report to the Congress respecting the affairs of the national finances.

One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked. I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.

You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall have next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the ring the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag, bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW.

This would make a beautiful coin, to which no possible citizen could object. This would relieve us from the ignominy of heathenism. This would place us openly under the Divine protection we have personally claimed. From my hearth I have felt our national shame in disowning God as not the least of our present national disasters.

To you first I address a subject that must be agitated.

As a result, Secretary Chase instructed James Pollock, Director of the Mint at Philadelphia, to prepare a motto, in a letter dated November 20, 1861:

Dear Sir: No nation can be strong except in the strength of God, or safe except in His defense. The trust of our people in God should be declared on our national coins.

You will cause a device to be prepared without unnecessary delay with a motto expressing in the fewest and tersest words possible this national recognition.

It was found that the Act of Congress dated January 18, 1837, prescribed the mottoes and devices that should be placed upon the coins of the United States. This meant that the mint could make no changes without the enactment of additional legislation by the Congress. In December 1863, the Director of the Mint submitted designs for new one-cent coin, two-cent coin, and three-cent coin to Secretary Chase for approval. He proposed that upon the designs either OUR COUNTRY; OUR GOD or GOD, OUR TRUST should appear as a motto on the coins. In a letter to the Mint Director on December 9, 1863, Secretary Chase stated:

I approve your mottoes, only suggesting that on that with the Washington obverse the motto should begin with the word OUR, so as to read OUR GOD AND OUR COUNTRY. And on that with the shield, it should be changed so as to read: IN GOD WE TRUST.

The Congress passed the Act of April 22, 1864. This legislation changed the composition of the one-cent coin and authorized the minting of the two-cent coin. The Mint Director was directed to develop the designs for these coins for final approval of the Secretary. IN GOD WE TRUST first appeared on the 1864 two-cent coin.

Another Act of Congress passed on March 3, 1865. It allowed the Mint Director, with the Secretary's approval, to place the motto on all gold and silver coins that "shall admit the inscription thereon." Under the Act, the motto was placed on the gold double-eagle coin, the gold eagle coin, and the gold half-eagle coin. It was also placed on the silver dollar coin, the half-dollar coin and the quarter-dollar coin, and on the nickel three-cent coin beginning in 1866. Later, Congress passed the Coinage Act of February 12, 1873. It also said that the Secretary "may cause the motto IN GOD WE TRUST to be inscribed on such coins as shall admit of such motto."

The use of IN GOD WE TRUST has not been uninterrupted. The motto disappeared from the five-cent coin in 1883, and did not reappear until production of the Jefferson nickel began in 1938. Since 1938, all United States coins bear the inscription. Later, the motto was found missing from the new design of the double-eagle gold coin and the eagle gold coin shortly after they appeared in 1907. In response to a general demand, Congress ordered it restored, and the Act of May 18, 1908, made it mandatory on all coins upon which it had previously appeared. IN GOD WE TRUST was not mandatory on the one-cent coin and five-cent coin. It could be placed on them by the Secretary or the Mint Director with the Secretary's approval.

The motto has been in continuous use on the one-cent coin since 1909, and on the ten-cent coin since 1916. It also has appeared on all gold coins and silver dollar coins, half-dollar coins, and quarter-dollar coins struck since July 1, 1908.....

https://www.treasury.gov/about/education/Pages/in-god-we-trust.aspx

[Kenemet]

1 hour ago, joc said:

Here is the whole dill pickle in a nutshell:

You and I meet together on a road...all alone.  Just the two of us. We walk down the road together.  We come to a fork in the road...you want to go one way but I want to go the other way.   You can take you me as your prisoner and force me to go down your road....that's tyranny.  I can walk with you down the road you choose abandoning my own desires not knowing where your road is going.  That is blind following.  We can hug and go down our separate roads wishing each other the best...that is Freedom.

The whole world is evolving through Blind Following into Socialism.   Because the blind don't understand that the road of Socialism leads to the Capitol of Tyranny.   

But Jesus was advocating socialism.

He advocated tithing to support widows and orphans and those who were poor.  If he was a capitalist, he would have supported the idea that people own their own wealth and don't owe anyone a living.  He supported the idea of taxation ("render unto Caesar...")  He stormed the temple where money changers and animal sellers were conducting business (capitalism) and drove them out, calling them robbers.  So he didn't like that they set their own prices and could even collude with each other to drive up prices... he wanted price controls in effect (and the businesses moved elsewhere)

He fed the poor and hungry (socialism) rather than charging them (capitalism).

Even the Bible's 613 laws has a section about deliberately leaving grain and other food in the fields for the poor and indigent to pick so that they could eat. That's socialism, not capitalism.

Edited August 24, 2019 by Kenemet

[Kenemet]

3 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

How far back in time in our young nation's history can we go so that we can we say it's heritage for us of the year 2019 AD?

...

The motto has been in continuous use on the one-cent coin since 1909, and on the ten-cent coin since 1916. It also has appeared on all gold coins and silver dollar coins, half-dollar coins, and quarter-dollar coins struck since July 1, 1908.....

https://www.treasury.gov/about/education/Pages/in-god-we-trust.aspx

And wasn't on all coinage and paper money until 1996 (per that same page.)  So it's got a heritage of ... 23 years, right?

E Pluribus Unum has a longer history and was the original tradition.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust

[Kenemet]

26 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

 

Ah, but here, a mere 25 years after the founding of the nation is this:

[+joc]

16 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

But Jesus was advocating socialism.

He advocated tithing to support widows and orphans and those who were poor.  If he was a capitalist, he would have supported the idea that people own their own wealth and don't owe anyone a living.  He supported the idea of taxation ("render unto Caesar...")  He stormed the temple where money changers and animal sellers were conducting business (capitalism) and drove them out, calling them robbers.  So he didn't like that they set their own prices and could even collude with each other to drive up prices... he wanted price controls in effect (and the businesses moved elsewhere)

He fed the poor and hungry (socialism) rather than charging them (capitalism).

Even the Bible's 613 laws has a section about deliberately leaving grain and other food in the fields for the poor and indigent to pick so that they could eat. That's socialism, not capitalism.

That has nothing to do with Freedom vs Tyranny...which is what my post was relating to

[+joc]

48 minutes ago, Pettytalk said:

Joc, actually it's Democracy the most fertile ground from which tyranny arises. Although socialism has sprouted one or two tyrants also. But then, Democracy and Socialism are branches of the same tree, and perhaps their main divergent point is their economical foundation, one is capitalistic, and the other is more communistic.

When you get to deduct the cost of raising 5 children from your income taxes, and I with only two can deduct less, to then you using the public school system for 5 and I for two, there is something socialistic in our democracy. Just an example, as I don't know if or how many kids you have.

But you example is rather simple, and does not consider other factors that would persuade you to follow someone, or someone following you.

Nutshells are supposed to be simple.  You either get it or you don't.  I'm guessing you don't.

[+Pettytalk]

8 minutes ago, joc said:

Nutshells are supposed to be simple.  You either get it or you don't.  I'm guessing you don't.

Well! I'm getting it now, ain't I?

When you give something in a "nutshell" make certain the nut is removed first, before serving it.

Don't you agree that democracy has yielded far more tyrants than socialism?