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Pettytalk

The Spiritual Heritage of the USA

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cormac mac airt
3 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

So, because you said this I can show you where you're mistaken, at least  from a Christian knowing of who Yeshua is. 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+1%2CRomans+1%2CGenesis+1&version=KJV

Using the Bible to validate the Bible, hilarious. Next! The only mistake is thinking you know the origins of your own God BEFORE such a person as Yeshua/Jesus was ever born. 

cormac

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Ellapennella
18 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

 In Judeo-Christianity YAHWEH is GOD.

 

God is God. The word became flesh . In the beginning was the word.

Quote

And the Biblical Yahweh is a merging of the Canaanite god El with the Midianite god Yahweh under the latters name but the formers "Creator" status but both originally NOT being the Biblical God, nor being omniscient or omnipotent. 

That's a myth promoted by secular scholars. 

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, Ellapennella said:

God is God

Where did God come from? What matter existed in order to create God and how did that matter exist before God did?

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Ellapennella
1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said:

Using the Bible to validate the Bible, hilarious. Next! The only mistake is thinking you know the origins of your own God BEFORE such a person as Yeshua/Jesus was ever born. 

cormac

The old scriptures validate Jesus as well. There's plenty to validate who Jesus is. 

 America and it's Strong  Religious Heritage points to  Jesus.

 

 

 

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cormac mac airt
10 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

God is God. The word became flesh . In the beginning was the word.

That's a myth promoted by secular scholars. 

Nope, that's a fact predating the Bible. People knew who El was just as they knew who Yahweh was and the two were NOT seen as the same originally. That you've bought into the merged deity doesn't change that fact. 

cormac

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cormac mac airt
3 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

The old scriptures validate Jesus as well. There's plenty to validate who Jesus is. 

 America and it's Strong  Religious Heritage points to  Jesus.

Yes, I know how self-fulfilling prophecies work. Thanks anyway. 

cormac

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Ellapennella
11 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Where did God come from? What matter existed in order to create God and how did that matter exist before God did?

Your questions are all revealed for you, in the bible. 

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XenoFish
Just now, Ellapennella said:

Your questions are all revealed for you, in the bible. 

No they are not. If they were I would need to ask them.

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Ellapennella
1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said:

Yes, I know how self-fulfilling prophecies work. Thanks anyway. 

cormac

No, I'm not certain if you know who Jesus is or if you understand  America's religious foundation. 

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Ellapennella
5 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

No they are not. If they were I would need to ask them.

The thing is , is you have to read it sincerely , that is if you really want the answers.  

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Ellapennella
10 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Nope, that's a fact predating the Bible. People knew who El was just as they knew who Yahweh was and the two were NOT seen as the same originally. That you've bought into the merged deity doesn't change that fact. 

cormac

It is a myth. I will start a new topic on it. 

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cormac mac airt
15 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

No, I'm not certain if you know who Jesus is or if you understand  America's religious foundation. 

I understand who you 'want' him to be. That's irrelevant to what the earliest Hebrews believed about their god.

Quote

It is a myth. I will start a new topic on it.

The only myth is that you know enough to discuss it. You're entitled 'to believe' what you want, but the available linguistic, textual and archaeological evidence suggest that you don't know the origins of your own deity. 

cormac

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Ellapennella
On 8/19/2019 at 9:47 AM, Pettytalk said:

The "writings on the walls" of US federal and State capitals government buildings evidence strong faith in religion by our governing bodies, past and present.

Can anyone else find these kind of religious indications in the USA?

Here is a short list, as found on the linked site.  https://www.allabouthistory.org/spiritual-heritage-and-government-monuments-faq.htm

Spiritual Heritage and Government Monuments

QUESTION: Spiritual Heritage – Government Monuments, Buildings, and Landmarks

ANSWER:

Some of the most important monuments, buildings, and landmarks in Washington, D.C., include religious words, symbols, and imagery. In the United States Capitol the declaration “In God We Trust” is prominently displayed in both the United States House and Senate Chambers.

Around the top of the walls in the House Chamber appear images of 23 great lawgivers from across the centuries, but Moses (the lawgiver, who– according to the Bible – originally received the law of God,) is the only lawgiver honored with a full face view, looking down on the proceedings of the House.

Religious artwork is found throughout the United States Capitol, including in the Rotunda where the prayer service of Christopher Columbus, the Baptism of Pocahontas, and the prayer and Bible study of the Pilgrims are all prominently displayed; in the Cox Corridor of the Capitol where the words “America! God shed His grace on thee” are inscribed; at the east Senate entrance with the words “Annuit Coeptis” – Latin for “God has favored our undertakings”; and in numerous other locations.

Images of the Ten Commandments are found in many federal buildings across Washington, D. C., including in bronze in the floor of the National Archives; in a bronze statue of Moses in the Main Reading Room of the Library of Congress; in numerous locations at the U. S. Supreme Court, including in the frieze above the Justices, the oak door at the rear of the Chamber, the gable apex, and in dozens of locations on the bronze latticework surrounding the Supreme Court Bar seating.

Spiritual Heritage – The Washington Monument, Jefferson Memorial, and Lincoln Memorial
In the Washington Monument not only are numerous Bible verses and religious acknowledgements carved on memorial blocks in the walls, including the phrases: “Holiness to the Lord” (Exodus 28:26, 30:30, Isaiah 23:18, Zechariah 14:20), “Search the Scriptures” (John 5:39), “The memory of the just is blessed” (Proverbs 10:7), “May Heaven to this Union continue its beneficence,” and “In God We Trust”, but the Latin inscription Laus Deo – “Praise be to God” – is engraved on the monument’s capstone.

Of the five areas inside the Jefferson Memorial into which Jefferson’s words have been carved, four are God-centered, including Jefferson’s declaration that “God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that His justice cannot sleep forever.”

The Lincoln Memorial contains numerous acknowledgments of God and citations of Bible verses, including the declarations that “we here highly resolve that . . . this nation under God . . . shall not perish from the earth”; “The Almighty has His own purposes. ‘Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh’ (Matthew 18:7)”; “as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said ‘the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether’ (Psalms 19:9)”; “one day every valley shall be exalted and every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh see it together” (Dr. Martin Luther King’s speech, based on Isaiah 40:4-5).

In the Library of Congress, The Giant Bible of Mainz and The Gutenberg Bible are on prominent permanent display and etched on the walls are Bible verses, including “The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not” (John 1:5); “Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore, get wisdom and with all thy getting, get understanding” (Proverbs 4:7); “What doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God” (Micah 6:8); and “The heavens declare the Glory of God, and the firmament showeth His handiwork” (Psalm 19:1).1

The spiritual heritage of the United States of America is obvious. Numerous other of the most important American government leaders, institutions, monuments, buildings, and landmarks both openly acknowledge and incorporate religious words, symbols, and imagery into official venues. Such acknowledgments are even more frequent at the state and local level than at the Federal level, where thousands of such acknowledgments exist.

Biblical Principles and Civil Government

Was Rev. Morse right?

 

Our dangers are of two kinds, those which affect our religion, and those which affect our government…. Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all the blessings which flow from them, must fall with them. Rev. Jedidiah Morse, 1799

https://ponderingprinciples.com/books/itfad/

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Ellapennella
1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said:

I understand who you 'want' him to be. That's irrelevant to what the earliest Hebrews believed about their god.

The only myth is that you know enough to discuss it. You're entitled 'to believe' what you want, but the available linguistic, textual and archaeological evidence suggest that you don't know the origins of your own deity. 

cormac

If you would like to discuss it I made a thread for it.

 

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Podo
53 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

That's a myth promoted by secular scholars. 

These scholars have historical, archaeological, and linguistic evidence. You have none of any of that.

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rashore
6 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

Excerpts from Jefferson 's writ- 
ings are engraved on the four 
interior walls of the memorial. 
The selections from the Decla- 
ration of Independence (left) 
are on the southwest wall. The 
other three engravings are tak- 
en from the Virginia Statute of 
Religious Freedom and from a 
letter to James Madison; from 
Jefferson 's Notes on the State 
of Virginia and from a letter to 
George Washington on public 
education and slavery; and 
from a letter to Samuel Kerche- 
val on the need for institutional 
change. 

https://archive.org/stream/jeffersonmemoria00pete/jeffersonmemoria00pete_djvu.txt

Why, yes. Thank you for the secondary documentation that what I originally said was a conglomeration for what you asked about on the third panel.

Of the whole of panels of Jefferson quotes within the Jefferson Memorial, you did opt for the one that most was mashed up to represent the ideals of what folks  of the mid 1930’s to mid 1940’s might have summed up over several different writings of Jefferson in retrospect to fit the space on the wall.

 

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Jodie.Lynne

@Ellapennella

 

I have a question.  Why is your holy books stories about a demigod any more valid than any other demigod throughout history?

Quote

 

List of Demigods 

Greek mythology

Achilles: son of the sea nymph Thetis (daughter of sea god Nereus), and Peleus, king of the Myrmidons.

Aeacus: son of Zeus and Aegina who was the daughter of a river god. He was the father of Telamon and Peleus and grandfather of Ajax and Achilles.

Aeneas: Trojan hero, son of Aphrodite, goddess of love and Prince Anchises. He fled to Italy and became the father of Romulus and Remus, founders of Rome.

Amphion: son of Zeus and Antiope, and twin brother of Zethus.

Arcas: son of Zeus and Callisto, a nymph and minor goddess associated with Aphrodite.

Asclepius: according to D’Aulaires book of Greek Myth, Asclepius was a son of Apollo who achieved divine status after death. He became such a great healer, that he could bring back the dead. Zeus killed him for this, but raised him from the dead as the god of healing and medicine.

Athis: son of Limnaee, a nymph of Gange.

Bellerophon: according to Homer's Iliad, son of Glaucus and Eurymede of Corinth. According to Apollodorus and Hesiod's catallouges by Hyginus, he was a son of the sea god Poseidon by Eurymede.

Dardanus: son of Zeus and Electra, daughter of Atlas.

Dionysus: son of Zeus and Semele, a mortal. Later on he became a god, part of the Olympians when Hestia gave up her seat for him

Epaphus: son of Zeus and Io, a priestess of the goddess Hera (Zeus' wife).

Harmonia: daughter of Zeus and Electra.

Heracles: son of Zeus (king of the gods) and Alcmene, a mortal woman.

Helen of Sparta, also known as Helen of Troy: According to older sources, daughter of king Tyndareus and Leda[1], but Homer also calls her daughter of Zeus and Leda. Wife of Menelaus, the king of Sparta.

Hippolyta: daughter of Ares, a Queen of the Amazons.

Iasus: son of Zeus and Electra (one of the seven daughters of Atlas and Pleione). He was the brother of Dardanus.

Memnon: son of Tithonus and Eos, a Titan goddess of the dawn.

Orion: son of Poseidon (the sea god) Euryale.

Orpheus: son of Calliope and the god Apollo.

Penthesilea: daughter of Ares and Otrera, a Queen of the Amazons

Perseus: son of Zeus and mortal princess Danae, whom he impregnated as a golden shower.

Polydeuces, also known by his Roman name of Pollux: one of the Dioscuri and twin brother of Kastor. He was son of Zeus and the mortal Leda while his twin had a mortal father, king Tyndareus (Leda's husband).

Theseus: son of Poseidon (the sea god) and Aethra, the wife of king Aegeus.

Tityos: a giant, son of Zeus and Elara.

Zethes: son of Boreas (the Greek god of the cold north wind and the bringer of winter) and Oreithyia, daughter of King Erechtheus of Athens. His brother was Calais, and they are collectively known as Boreads.

Zethus: son of Zeus and Antiope, twin brother of Amphion, co-founder of Thebes.

Roman mythology

Bacchus: son of Jupiter and Semele, a mortal. The Roman god of agriculture, wine and fertility copied from the Greek god Dionysus.

Hercules: son of Jupiter and Alcmene. Often portrayed in popular fiction as either a demigod and as a god.

Romulus and Remus: twin sons of Mars and Rhea Silvia, co-founders of Rome.

Turnus: son of Venilia.

Hindu mythology

Arjuna: son of Indra and Kunti.

Bhima: son of Pawan and Kunti.

Bhishma: son of Kuru King Shantanu and the goddess Ganga.

Dhristadyumna: materialised out of a ritual fire-altar; quasi son of fire god Agni; Draupadi's brother.

Draupadi: materialised out of a ritual fire-altar; quasi daughter of fire god Agni; Dhristadyumna's sister.

Drona: contained spark of Brihaspati.

Ghatotkacha: born of demigod Bhima and a demoness Hidimbā.

Hanuman: son of Vayu.

Iravan: The son of Pandava prince Arjuna (one of the main heroes of the Mahabharata) and the Naga (snake) princess Ulupi.

Karna: son of sun god Surya and Kunti.

Lakshmana: incarnation of the great serpent god Ananta.

Nakula: son of one of the gods Ashvini Kumaras.

Pradyumna: incarnation of Kamadeva.

Sahadeva: son of one of the gods Ashvini Kumaras.

Devavrata, named Bhishma: son of Shantanu and Ganga, the river goddess.

Sugreeva: son of sun god Surya.

Vali: son of the king of all gods, the thunder god Indra.

Yudhishthira: son of the god of death and justice Yama and Kunti.

Norse mythology

Sæmingr: king of Norway, son of god Odin and queen Skade.

Bragi: another son of Odin.

Celtic mythology

Cú Chulainn: son of the god Lugh and the mortal woman Deichtine.

Diarmuid Ua Duibhne: son of the god Donn and one of the Fianna.

Other

Amirani: Georgian culture hero, son of Dali and a mortal hunter

Gilgamesh: Sumerian king.

Māui: Maori, New Zealand.

Semiramis: Assyrian queen who, according to some legends was daughter of the fish goddess Atargatis or Derketo of Ascalon in Assyria and a mortal.

 

 

As you can see, there are many tales of "gods" mating with mortals, and every last one of them have stories. Why is your belief in a demi-god and his father any more factual than these?

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Jodie.Lynne
2 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

 America and it's Strong  Religious Heritage points to  Jesus.

Please indicate what documents regarding the formation of the US government "points to Jesus", please and thank you.

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Jodie.Lynne
4 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

If you would like to discuss it I made a thread for it.

Except, you don't really want to "discuss" it. You just want a platform to say your beliefs are right, and everything else is wrong.

IMO, you are a prima facie example of a dishonest theist.

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Tatetopa

Thanks for the thread, lots of interesting contributions.

Back to the OP's initial claim of Spiritual heritage for the US; architecture such as our monuments seems to figure prominently in the statement..  Are not many of those based on Greek and Roman architectural ideals?  Their inspiration seems to be temples to a number of gods in a pantheon, either Greek or Roman.  Then there is the Washington monument which rather smacks of the Egyptian influence, spiritual but definitely not Christian.

So is the argument that if we build something that looks like a temple to Athena, we must be Spiritual?

Is that all there is to being spiritual, just a building style?  How about behavior of our citizens?  With the exception of a few aristocratic and enlightened leaders, has the populace of the United States shown any Spirituality? 

Do we honor Ares the Greek god of war, or Thor, or the Farengi god of acquisition or what?

Do you recognize some form of national spirituality in our behavior, either in the past or in the present day?  Certainly it could not be accepted without argument that we are a Christian nation, either in our founding or  today. Spirituality in the United States does not clearly point to Jesus.

Do you recognize the beatitudes or the teachings of Jesus in the way  our nation dealt with Indians, Blacks or any other non-European white group?  Do you think we treat children,  the poor, the traveler, and the refugee in the ways Jesus would have taught?

We may have aspects of spirituality, but a major portion of people that call themselves religious worship a stern, unforgiving, intolerant, punishing god, not Jesus. 

Mostly that stern, unforgiving god has one major point in its favor; it respects property rights and wealth.

 

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Kenemet
7 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

So , I asked if maybe one day he would   compare bible history of why nations will fail . From the history given to us in the bible to now..  

Bible history covers only a fraction of all the nations that ever existed.  In fact, I think it only covers the fall of one nation (Babylon) and then only touches on its eventual conquest by the Persians.

Quote

O.K so let's see , Noah's grandson Mizraim is the father of the Egyptians,  I asked a comparison in  bible history of why nation's fail. Granted there are  reasons and they all have a pattern in them. 

Noah, according to the Bible, survived a flood around 2400 BC and his grandson was born after that.  The problem with your statement is that the ancient Egyptians were writing all sorts of documents long before 2400 BC and continued writing through 2400 BC and beyond with no interruption.  So... Mizraim has nothing to do with the Egyptians and there is nothing about nations failing because of lack of life-giving floods, corruption among officials, and a disagreement over who succeeded the pharaoh so great that the high priests of the god of the land usurped them (followed a long time later by a descendant of their conqueror selling them to another nation.

So it doesn't match any account of the fall of Babylon.

Quote

 Can you compare their failure  to bible history?  (Maya history)

I don't see any nation in the Bible that failed because of population shift, trade route collapse, drought, and invasion as four factors.   So it is not a match for the Biblical account of the end of Babylon.

Quote

Again can you compare why they failed with bible history ? (Mongols)

They conquered too much territory to hold, they disagreed about who should succeed Genghis Khan, and then the Black Plague struck.  No match there.

Quote

Show me these reasons in comparison to bible history. (reasons for empire collapse)

There's actually no real alignment.  We have nations collapsing because of multiple factors, including invasion by neighbors.

 

Quote

The truth is, non-religious motivations and naturalistic philosophies bear the blame for nearly all of humankind's wars.

An interesting source of truth on the matter is Philip and Axelrod's three-volume Encyclopedia of Wars, which chronicles some 1,763 wars that have been waged over the course of human history. Of those wars, the authors categorize 123 as being religious in nature, an astonishingly low 6.98 percent of all wars. However, when one subtracts wars waged in the name of Islam (66), the percentage falls to 3.23 percent.

That means that all faiths combined – minus Islam – have caused less than 4% of all of humanity's wars and violent conflicts. Further, religion was not a motivating factor in the wars that have resulted in the most loss of life. 

religion cause wars

https://www.compellingtruth.org/religion-cause-wars.html

The  point is found in the  Comparison  of  why nations fail by  looking into  biblical  history and comparing that history to our days. 

The Encyclopedia seems to be somewhat... contrived?  You can see that from just the European wars documented on Wikipedia and doesn't cover wars elsewhere. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war#Timeline

The idea that "moral collapse" brings about wars doesn't seem to have much of a basis.  Drought and disease don't seem very moral... and if the test was morality, ancient Egypt would still be here and would have taken over most of the world, with its laws (far older than Christianity or Judaism) involving Ma'at and Greece (with its legalized and enforced culture of pederasty (men were encouraged to train boys by taking them as lovers; a civilization-wide practice) wouldn't have lasted more than 50 years and Sparta (with its culture of death (things like encouraging boys to go out and kill slaves and peasants as proof of their manhood)) would have been obliterated during the reign of its first king -- instead of lasting for 800 years.

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Ellapennella
3 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Please indicate what documents regarding the formation of the US government "points to Jesus", please and thank you.

The ones pertaining to God. 

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XenoFish
38 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Do we honor Ares the Greek god of war, or Thor, or the Farengi god of acquisition or what?

Are not the gods just something that we wish we could be? How much of ourselves are projected into these gods? How much of our cultures are projected into these gods? A god of war and destruction for a conquering nation? The peace, love, and happiness version of Jesus. How about how individuals see the gods? A god of pain, discipline, suffering and being told that it is god's will that people suffer. We are given gods, create gods, destroy gods. The idea of god is apparently very powerful in the minds of those who believe in them. Even blindingly so. I suppose the idea of a loving deity might ease a troubled mind, so long as it doesn't cause the believer to avoid reality. How about the new gods, money being one of the most power if not the ultimate god? 

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Jodie.Lynne
5 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

The ones pertaining to God. 

Yeah, no.

From: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100405170941AAk2wLq
 

Quote

 

Where is Jesus mentioned in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence?

In the Declaration of Independence, "GOD" is alluded to only three times. He is Called Natures God, in the first sentence. Nature's God can be interpreted so many different ways and even among the Wicca,, we pray to the God and Goddess of Nature. And the next time that God is alluded to is in the last paragraph, first sentence, where appeal is made to the "Supreme Judge of the world". Again there is NO specific mention of WHO that God is, and MANY Religions acknowledge their God(s) as being the Supreme Judge of the world and/or universe. The last time is the very last sentence which reads, "And for the support of this declaration, with a firm reliance of the Protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

Now as for the Constitution, there is not one single mention of Jesus, God not ANY Deity. The closest the constitution comes to addressing Religion is as follows in the First Amendment. "Congress shall make no law respecting and establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; of the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

So, there is NO mention of Jesus, Christianity or even reference to a specific God. NONE of the "values" represented in either the Declaration OR the Constitution are derived from "Values" that are EXCLUSIVELY Christian, or Judeo-Christian. Rather they are values that are shared by followers of almost EVERY religion of the Earth. In other words, common values to humanity as a whole.

 

 

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