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Ultimatium

Is cryptozoology a legitimate science?

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ThereWeAreThen
On 9/22/2019 at 2:55 PM, Ultimatium said:

Well, the platypus is widely recognized as one of the few cryptids that turned out to be real. Im not sure how popular cryptozoology was back in those days, but it goes to show that science isnt always right.

Yes, thats true. We really dont have much proof of sasquatch besides the tracks, recordings and eye witness accounts. Its obviously not indesputible evidence, but it gives us a hint that something may be out there, which is what makes it so interesting.

 

Saying science isn't always right is a ridiculous notion. Science explains everything, it's the scientists who don't always get it right, usually because they haven't got the knowledge yet.

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openozy
2 hours ago, ThereWeAreThen said:

Saying science isn't always right is a ridiculous notion. Science explains everything, it's the scientists who don't always get it right, usually because they haven't got the knowledge yet.

That's very true,most so with the paranormal which they are just starting to tap into.

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Ultimatium
12 hours ago, ThereWeAreThen said:

Saying science isn't always right is a ridiculous notion. Science explains everything, it's the scientists who don't always get it right, usually because they haven't got the knowledge yet.

Well science isnt always right, most of the time, but not always.

16 hours ago, the13bats said:

im not sure how far "well respected" travels with those two when the subject if respect is "bigfoot", both are overly ego driven and biased, both supported things well dismissed by real unbiased scientists like the whole bigfoot is Gigantopithecus tripe, both fell for countless hoaxes, krantz seems more relaxed when he was duped, where meldrum for example beat his fist snowwalker was real, and it wasnt and its size didnt fit meldrums claims, then when shown to be a hoax hes not humble about being wrong, an interesting side note, meldrum claimed snowwalker was akin to the patterson creature, saying neither according to his expertise could be men in a suit, but gee, he was proven wrong about snowwalker, he makes up seeing stuff in the pgf that just isnt there, making up stuff isnt good science.

Its not going to add anything useful to the debate if you are going to call them ego driven or attention seekers. If anything, its going to give us a really dumb debate.

Yes, they may be a bit biased because they believe in bigfoot, but they arent egoistic, attention seeking liars. In all likeliness, they are just people who wants to belive in bigfoot.

On 9/30/2019 at 1:35 AM, Carnoferox said:

The cripplefoot tracks are likely fake as well; the man behind their "discovery" (=creation) was Ivan Marx, a notorious hoaxer.

I did a bit more research on the subject. It seems that the tracks were also verified by an orthopedic surgeon, as well as a fingerprint specialist. So im going to take my agreement with your claim that its probably just a hoax back again.

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ChrLzs
8 minutes ago, Ultimatium said:

I did a bit more research on the subject. It seems that the tracks were also verified by an orthopedic surgeon, as well as a fingerprint specialist. So im going to take my agreement with your claim that its probably just a hoax back again.

Verified?  in what way?  Well, your word on that is certainly all we need....:blink:

 

NO, you need to CITE these claims or withdraw them.  Do one or the other.

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Ultimatium
58 minutes ago, ChrLzs said:

Verified?  in what way?  Well, your word on that is certainly all we need....:blink:

Well, verified as in verified by people who knows something about the subject.

58 minutes ago, ChrLzs said:

NO, you need to CITE these claims or withdraw them.  Do one or the other.

I already did in my previous post. I also made a link that was clearly visible.

Dr. David Howe, orthopedic surgeon, believes the prints are wholly authentic.

Please read my posts, thanks.

Edited by Ultimatium

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Carnoferox
1 hour ago, Ultimatium said:

I did a bit more research on the subject. It seems that the tracks were also verified by an orthopedic surgeon, as well as a fingerprint specialist. So im going to take my agreement with your claim that its probably just a hoax back again.

Yes, trust the tracks that were found by the same Ivan Marx who produced this ridiculous hoax footage.

 

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the13bats
1 hour ago, Ultimatium said:

Well science isnt always right, most of the time, but not always.

Its not going to add anything useful to the debate if you are going to call them ego driven or attention seekers. If anything, its going to give us a really dumb debate.

Yes, they may be a bit biased because they believe in bigfoot, but they arent egoistic, attention seeking liars. In all likeliness, they are just people who wants to belive in bigfoot.

I did a bit more research on the subject. It seems that the tracks were also verified by an orthopedic surgeon, as well as a fingerprint specialist. So im going to take my agreement with your claim that its probably just a hoax back again.

Actually any bigfoot debate is "dumb" im not debating im posting my opinions if you agree thats fine if you dont that a "you" problem.

however, do not make up stuff that i didnt say, i never called krantz or meldrum liars i called them biased attention seeking ego junkies, who dont "want" to believe in bigfoot they "do" believe in bf  based on very, very weak alleged evidence, "belief" isnt what science is about, science likes proof, which when it comes to bf there is zero,

so for me a persons motivations, IE: biased, ego driven, attention seeking blind true believer etc does most certainly have a bearing on their integrity and credibilty,

i was rather let down with john green, sure he was a pompous blow hard but i liked the grizzled old goat, then i learn that for decades he allowed to be presented to countless documentries, books, articles and people  prints saying they were real when it came up  after his death that he actually knew them to be fakes,

so how do i defend that? okay, he wanted bigfoot to be real so badly he allowed people to be duped by fake prints.

and your fingerprint expert, i even know his name, well guess what he was mistaken,

he placed his reputation on the line that the dermal ridges he found on some tracks were neither primate nor human but were from a real creature, he even took credit to cluing in meldrum what dermal ridges were,

oops, as it turned out a couple of the casts he said were real were known fakes, ridges were brush strokes, then an artist showed how these ridge patterns the expert said were real were not dermal ridges but artifacts of the casting process,

on another print trying to save face he said john green saw the ridges in the track before making the plaster cast, an investagator asked green if this was the case, green replied no, that he never said that as he never saw ridges in the raw print, oops again

also a very well known less biased anthropologist said that the ridges were easy to fake and proved zero.

if i do a cast of my foot, inlarge it by soaking the silicone in acetone and make a 15" cast of my foot an orthopedic specialist will says its real, that far from proves it came from bigfoot.

if you want to prove a bf track is real, then show me the foot that fits the print.

 

2 minutes ago, Carnoferox said:

Yes, trust the tracks that were found by the same Ivan Marx who produced this ridiculous hoax footage.

 

was that bf or Beldar conehead?

A-1754615-1285820544.jpeg.jpg.bdeea4f5da2b18c274e94ffb6cdbfe60.jpg

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Horta
Quote

In a 2011 foreword for The American Biology Teacher, then National Association of Biology Teachers president Dan Ward uses cryptozoology as an example of "technological pseudoscience" that may confuse students about the scientific method. Ward says that "Cryptozoology ... is not valid science or even science at all. It is monster hunting."

Lol.

About sums it up.

Quote

 Historian of science Brian Regal includes an entry for cryptozoology in his Pseudoscience: A Critical Encyclopedia (2009). Regal says that "as an intellectual endeavor, cryptozoology has been studied as much as cryptozoologists have sought hidden animals".

This is cryptozoology's only relevance to science and academia in general. It offers psychologists, cultural anthropologists and folklorists a chance to study cryptozoologists themselves, and cryptozoology in general as a cultural myth/belief/endeavour. 

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Horta
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Cryptozoology is a pseudoscience and subculture that aims to prove the existence of entities from the folklore record, such as Bigfoot, the chupacabra, or Mokele-mbembe. .............Because it does not follow the scientific method, cryptozoology is considered a pseudoscience by the academic world..........

Scholars have noted that the pseudoscience rejected mainstream approaches from an early date, and that adherents often express hostility to mainstream science. Scholars have studied cryptozoologists and their influence (including the pseudoscience's association with young Earth creationism), noted parallels in cryptozoology and other pseudosciences such as ghost hunting and ufology

This wiki article seems accurate. There are an awful lot of creationists, ufo/alien proponents and paranormal buffs in general who are happy to blend the subjects. The anti scientific approach and feeling can be strong in crypto circles. Even from the few credentialed proponents/hobbyists who have been known to deride academia itself for their own failure to provide anything of substance on the subject.

It's probably a bit of fun, but it is no more than monster hunting.

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Earl.Of.Trumps

I suspect it is in the eye of the beholder.

Jeff Meldrum is a professor of anatomy an anthropology at Idaho State University and an avid researcher of BigFoot since the 1990's 
It's one thing for a brilliant person to believe in BigFoot, it's an altogether different thing to be hired by a University and study BigFoot. So I suppose the folks at ISU think he may be on to something. And they pay his salary.

Police detectives study clues to solve a crime. Anthropologists also study clues, BigFoot Hunters like Meldrum work with clues and I am sure he would not be  doing it if he knew that BF did not exist. There all in the same game. Study clues. Nothing wrong with that (to me).

People dismiss Meldrum, ridicule him etc. but those who do have no proof that BF does *not* exist. Interesting.

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ChrLzs
On 10/1/2019 at 2:29 PM, Ultimatium said:

Well, verified as in verified by people who knows something about the subject.

And have been shown to have a financial interest, or whose 'qualifications' are uncheckable and whose detailed reports are not available or verifiable.  There is no basis for his claim of authenticity.

Quote

I already did in my previous post. I also made a link that was clearly visible.

And YOU in that post, said they MAY be genuine.  You can't even convince yourself.

Quote

Dr. David Howe, orthopedic surgeon, believes the prints are wholly authentic.

Please read my posts, thanks.

I did, and now you have satisfied the criteria as nothing but a bigfoot enthusiast.  Not as an investigator.

Edited by ChrLzs
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stereologist
20 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I suspect it is in the eye of the beholder.

Jeff Meldrum is a professor of anatomy an anthropology at Idaho State University and an avid researcher of BigFoot since the 1990's 
It's one thing for a brilliant person to believe in BigFoot, it's an altogether different thing to be hired by a University and study BigFoot. So I suppose the folks at ISU think he may be on to something. And they pay his salary.

Police detectives study clues to solve a crime. Anthropologists also study clues, BigFoot Hunters like Meldrum work with clues and I am sure he would not be  doing it if he knew that BF did not exist. There all in the same game. Study clues. Nothing wrong with that (to me).

People dismiss Meldrum, ridicule him etc. but those who do have no proof that BF does *not* exist. Interesting.

Meldrum has gotten into trouble with his university over BF. They do NOT pay him to do BF studies. He does that on his own,  outside of the university.

Meldrum has little to go on other than footprints. He has asserted that footprints were real that turned out to be hoaxes. He got duped despite his background. This is what wishful thinking does. That is why experiments are double blinded. Deluding yourself is something that happens.

Meldrum is dismissed because the evidence strongly suggests there is no BF out there. He has gotten sucked into hoaxes more than once. 

This has been ongoing for years and years. Here is an older thread here at U-M

https://kzoomblog.wordpress.com/2015/06/13/bigfoot-hoax-sasquatch-chronicles-story/

Quote

Dr Jeff Meldrum, he’s a colleague of Todd and would be great for the show; he believes anything you tell him and is always putting his foot in it, he even authenticated Bigfoot plaster casts that were made and sent to him by the Bigfoot Hoaxes Club.

 

If you took a look instead of guessing you'd be amazed at what you can learn.

 

 

 

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Earl.Of.Trumps
1 hour ago, stereologist said:

If you took a look instead of guessing you'd be amazed at what you can learn.

 

I never said contrary. My only assertion is that Meldrum is an professor of anatomy and anthropology for Idaho State University. The fact that you think he is chasing butterflies means little to his superiors who pay him. They certainly have not dismissed Meldrum. 

The added (and uncalled for ) bric-a-brac that you inserted is totally besides the point.

But I do get your point., you're real point.

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stereologist
1 hour ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

 

I never said contrary. My only assertion is that Meldrum is an professor of anatomy and anthropology for Idaho State University. The fact that you think he is chasing butterflies means little to his superiors who pay him. They certainly have not dismissed Meldrum. 

The added (and uncalled for ) bric-a-brac that you inserted is totally besides the point.

But I do get your point., you're real point.

His superiors do NOT pay him to do anything with BF. That is a hobby of Meldrum. 

As I already pointed out Meldrum ran into trouble when he tried to associate a BF meeting with the university. What I did point out is that the appeal to authority that he works at a university has not prevented Meldrum from being repeatedly hoaxed when it comes to his hobby.

He has associated himself with known hoaxers such as Todd Standing and has authenticated footprints made by the hoaxers club.

Making appeals to authority for Meldrum are not a good idea when it comes to Meldrum and his hobby.

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the13bats
On 10/2/2019 at 12:58 PM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I suspect it is in the eye of the beholder.

Jeff Meldrum is a professor of anatomy an anthropology at Idaho State University and an avid researcher of BigFoot since the 1990's 
It's one thing for a brilliant person to believe in BigFoot, it's an altogether different thing to be hired by a University and study BigFoot. So I suppose the folks at ISU think he may be on to something. And they pay his salary.

Police detectives study clues to solve a crime. Anthropologists also study clues, BigFoot Hunters like Meldrum work with clues and I am sure he would not be  doing it if he knew that BF did not exist. There all in the same game. Study clues. Nothing wrong with that (to me).

People dismiss Meldrum, ridicule him etc. but those who do have no proof that BF does *not* exist. Interesting.

you dont know meldrums biased flawed work or how colleges hand out grants at all...ignorance is your bliss.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
2 hours ago, stereologist said:

His superiors do NOT pay him to do anything with BF. That is a hobby of Meldrum. 

As I already pointed out Meldrum ran into trouble when he tried to associate a BF meeting with the university. What I did point out is that the appeal to authority that he works at a university has not prevented Meldrum from being repeatedly hoaxed when it comes to his hobby.

He has associated himself with known hoaxers such as Todd Standing and has authenticated footprints made by the hoaxers club.

Making appeals to authority for Meldrum are not a good idea when it comes to Meldrum and his hobby.

 

And making an appeal to your sceptic websites has done nothing to contra what I said about him.  All you do is move the goalposts and make it *look like* you are correcting me.

Perhaps you can show me what is wrong with my original text. 

On 10/2/2019 at 12:58 PM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I suspect it is in the eye of the beholder.

Jeff Meldrum is a professor of anatomy an anthropology at Idaho State University and an avid researcher of BigFoot since the 1990's 
It's one thing for a brilliant person to believe in BigFoot, it's an altogether different thing to be hired by a University and study BigFoot. So I suppose the folks at ISU think he may be on to something. And they pay his salary.

Police detectives study clues to solve a crime. Anthropologists also study clues, BigFoot Hunters like Meldrum work with clues and I am sure he would not be  doing it if he knew that BF did not exist. There all in the same game. Study clues. Nothing wrong with that (to me).

People dismiss Meldrum, ridicule him etc. but those who do have no proof that BF does *not* exist. Interesting.

I said nothing wrong, try as you might.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
18 minutes ago, the13bats said:

you dont know meldrums biased flawed work or how colleges hand out grants at all...ignorance is your bliss.

you don't know it either.  If he was "flawed" as you say he is, he would not be a professor of anatomy that he teaches to grad students.

Meldrum has 200 BF footprint castings. Are you telling me you know for a fact they are fake?

go ahead and try. Just be prepared to show your proof for ALL of them.

 

PS: your ad hominem count is now = 1. "ignorance".  Have fun!!

Edited by Earl.Of.Trumps
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Carnoferox

It is best to judge Meldrum not by his position, but by the quality of his work. Unfortunately the quality of his work is not up to standards with conventional anthropology and paleontology.

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Piney
11 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

he would not be a professor of anatomy that he teaches to grad students.

I know a history department head at a major college who takes "sloppy research" and "stupid" to a whole new level. 

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the13bats
29 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

you don't know it either.  If he was "flawed" as you say he is, he would not be a professor of anatomy that he teaches to grad students.

Meldrum has 200 BF footprint castings. Are you telling me you know for a fact they are fake?

go ahead and try. Just be prepared to show your proof for ALL of them.

 

PS: your ad hominem count is now = 1. "ignorance".  Have fun!!

first its rather ignorant to claim being called ignorant is an ad hominem attack, i call myself ignorant about politics.

meldrum might be a great teacher of anthropology at the college neither of us know as we haven't taken his classes,

but this is about bigfoot, stop derailing the topic.

as far as what i have seen of his bigfoot hobby work, he is very flawed, he also falls for hoaxes, that is fact  ( look up snow walker for a start )  if you stopped being angry and blustering and researched it you might learn something

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the13bats
4 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

 

I never said contrary. My only assertion is that Meldrum is an professor of anatomy and anthropology for Idaho State University. The fact that you think he is chasing butterflies means little to his superiors who pay him. They certainly have not dismissed Meldrum. 

The added (and uncalled for ) bric-a-brac that you inserted is totally besides the point.

But I do get your point., you're real point.

meldrum job is anthropology professor, his hobby is bigfoot, he doesn't teach bigfoot at the college, you failed yet again.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
31 minutes ago, Piney said:

I know a history department head at a major college who takes "sloppy research" and "stupid" to a whole new level. 

Nice, Piney but that does not necessarily reflect on anything I said about Meldrum. 

I don't know why people cannot accept what I said at face value. So be it. 

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Earl.Of.Trumps
12 minutes ago, the13bats said:

first its rather ignorant to claim being called ignorant is an ad hominem attack, i call myself ignorant about politics.

considering how you use,  (ad hominem counter)++    set to 2.

12 minutes ago, the13bats said:

meldrum might be a great teacher of anthropology at the college neither of us know as we haven't taken his classes,

but this is about bigfoot, stop derailing the topic.

I think if you take Meldrum any more than I did and try to make that the topic matter, it is you who is derailing the flow of the thread.
Think about what I actually said. What you have added into the mix is tangential and nothing I care to debate.

12 minutes ago, the13bats said:

as far as what i have seen of his bigfoot hobby work, he is very flawed, he also falls for hoaxes, that is fact  ( look up snow walker for a start )  if you stopped being angry and blustering and researched it you might learn something

I have reached a point where I don't bother with sceptic blogs at all because they are too unreliable. 
Meldrum may not be perfect, I don't know, but it is all irrelevant to the point - which is, Meldrum is a professor of anatomy and anthropology and who also does research into BigFoot. I am sure Meldrum uses his knowledge in anatomy to try and determine if the footprints he has could be made by a real foot made with that bone structure. I think that is good a example to show that BF study or crypto in general, can be science.

That is my point.

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Piney
5 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Nice, Piney but that does not necessarily reflect on anything I said about Meldrum. 

 

What I'm trying to get across is degrees don't mean everything. Being a good academic also involves lots of experience.  .

I only have a associates in library science. I'm not a full archaeologist or geologist, just a field and teaching assistant, yet I've been asked advice from and cited by several PhDs. 

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Earl.Of.Trumps
1 minute ago, Piney said:

What I'm trying to get across is degrees don't mean everything. Being a good academic also involves lots of experience.  .

I only have a associates in library science. I'm not a full archaeologist or geologist, just a field and teaching assistant, yet I've been asked advice from and cited by several PhDs. 

Point taken, and I got that in your first post.

you still have not shown why this contras what I said about Meldrum. Not only that, you never showed that Meldrum is one of these dum dum professors just because you talked about one other such professor. (it's irrelevant) 

Let's not go too far off the thread topic here. Is studying BF science?  Depending on the methods, I'd say yes.

Hence, Crypto *can* be science.

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