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Still Waters

Can DNA solve the mystery of pointy skulls?

164 posts in this topic

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Hammerclaw
12 minutes ago, Piney said:

Your source for this? 

A bad memory. I was thinking of someone else. My bad.

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Piney
7 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Who was it then... some “barbarian” who was adopted into Roman society and then b*****ed off back to his people and caused havoc for Rome. Hannibal? The Chappy responsible for the Tutenburg Forest massacre? 

He was British...forgot his name...Caratacus I think....

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Piney
1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

A bad memory. I was thinking of someone else. My bad.

You might be thinking of a Thracian or Dacian King whose name escapes me. 

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Hammerclaw
1 minute ago, Piney said:

You might be thinking of a Thracian or Dacian King whose name escapes me. 

Mine too. I'll dredge it up eventually. 

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Hammerclaw

Arminius, who wiped out three Roman Legions in the Teutoburg Forest, preventing the Romanization of Greater Germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminius

 

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Pettytalk
7 hours ago, Harte said:

A lie travels halfway around the world before the truth gets its shoes on.

Harte

The truth can go around barefooted just as well as a lie. Sometimes the truth can also go around the world of academia many times over as a lie before it is recognized. The truth can be a pretty lie to some, and vice versa.

The truth is that truth is much slower than a lie, as you were saying. However, there are still many lies out there, and not enough shoes to go around!  

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Sir Wearer of Hats
1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Arminius, who wiped out three Roman Legions in the Teutoburg Forest, preventing the Romanization of Greater Germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminius

 

That’s the chap I was thinking of too!

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The Wistman
Posted (edited)

Vercingetorix had been a cavalry commander for Julius Caesar before they warred against each other. 

https://www.ancient.eu/vercingetorix/

Edited by The Wistman
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Piney
3 hours ago, The Wistman said:

Vercingetorix had been a cavalry commander for Julius Caesar before they warred against each other. 

https://www.ancient.eu/vercingetorix/

Chadwick failed to note that.  Thanks :tu:

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Helen of Annoy

I'm just dropping by to add the Plague of Justinian. 

No, seriously, Mario Novak, bioarchaeologist at Anthropological institute in Zagreb, one of the authors of the study from the OP (who is not qualified to talk about this finding according to one of the "scientific" trolls in this thread), mentions the Plague of Justinian as one of the possible reasons why the three boys with diverse genomes were all suffering from malnutrition and were buried together.

That particular disease doesn't leave trace on the bones, an epidemic could have disrupted society to the point of hunger breaking out, burials were frequent and could have been done without following the customs unique for each tribe. 

And the epidemic was 541-542 CE, while the finding was dated 5th-6th century, so it really could be the Plague of Justinian, or one of its offshots.    

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Sir Wearer of Hats
35 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

I'm just dropping by to add the Plague of Justinian. 

No, seriously, Mario Novak, bioarchaeologist at Anthropological institute in Zagreb, one of the authors of the study from the OP (who is not qualified to talk about this finding according to one of the "scientific" trolls in this thread), mentions the Plague of Justinian as one of the possible reasons why the three boys with diverse genomes were all suffering from malnutrition and were buried together.

That particular disease doesn't leave trace on the bones, an epidemic could have disrupted society to the point of hunger breaking out, burials were frequent and could have been done without following the customs unique for each tribe. 

And the epidemic was 541-542 CE, while the finding was dated 5th-6th century, so it really could be the Plague of Justinian, or one of its offshots.    

That would fit, except I thought they burnt the plague victims on pyres. I am very probsbly mistaken. 

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The Wistman
7 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

That would fit, except I thought they burnt the plague victims on pyres. I am very probsbly mistaken. 

Quote

The plague was so widespread that no one was safe; even the emperor caught the disease, though he did not die. Dead bodies littered the streets of the capital. Justinian ordered troops to assist in the disposal of the dead. Once the graveyards and tombs were filled, burial pits and trenches were dug to handle the overflow. Bodies were disposed of in buildings, dumped into the sea, and placed on boats for burials at sea. And it was not just humans who were affected: animals of all types, including cats and dogs, perished and required proper disposal.

https://www.ancient.eu/article/782/justinians-plague-541-542-ce/

 

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Harte

Everything you ever wanted to know about the Ubaid but were afraid to ask:

papers from the Ubaid expansion? Cultural meaning, identity and the lead-up to urbanismInternational Workshop held at Grey College, University of Durham, 20–22 April 2006

Nice Ubaid head shaping article starts on page 125.

Harte

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Harte

Tel Zeidan Ubaidian dig.

Pic of one elongated skull here.

Harte

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Harte

Thanos provided these links on the Graham Hancock website.

Harte

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Piney
1 hour ago, The Wistman said:

Correction- Yersinia  pestis was first found among the Yamnaya Culture ( the Proto-Indo Europeans) and there could of been a outbreak in Neolithic Europe causing a population drop whose cause has not been determined. 

The Adronovo later brought it to India and China. 

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The Wistman

A 2018 article about the Peruvian Collagua people, rivals to the Incas, and their practice of skull shaping (1100 - 1450 CE) :

Quote

The Collagua were persistently under the threat from the Inca Empire around this time. For the women to be proudly displaying your privilege with strange skulls might have also have been particularly prominent during times of social strives and war, as it acted like a symbol of their collective identity, just like a nation proudly waving a flag.

The study also made clear that more and more skulls were being elongated, even among the lower classes, as the pressure from the Inca Empire grew. Perhaps they were looking for a sense of belonging during a time of strife?

https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/why-ancient-peruvians-had-elongated-skulls-no-its-not-aliens/

Bob Bowers' article, source for this one, for ScienceNews subscribers only  (I'm not) :   https://www.sciencenews.org/article/elongated-heads-were-mark-elite-status-ancient-peruvian-society

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Thanos5150
4 hours ago, Harte said:

Thanos provided these links on the Graham Hancock website.

Harte

See post #56 in this thread. Reproduced much of it there. This source, but also good ones on Iran and Ur skulls among others. 

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Pettytalk
12 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

I was literally about to cite that very link as rebuttal to my own post :D

Finally a show of some minor "induced" modesty!

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Helen of Annoy
11 hours ago, The Wistman said:

The study also made clear that more and more skulls were being elongated, even among the lower classes, as the pressure from the Inca Empire grew. Perhaps they were looking for a sense of belonging during a time of strife?

Or possibly they were trying to achieve the spiritual connection - if the elongating was about that for them, of course. I'm just speculating, obviously, but it does seem logical to me: 'abandoned' by gods, attempting to connect again. 

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The Wistman
1 hour ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Or possibly they were trying to achieve the spiritual connection - if the elongating was about that for them, of course. I'm just speculating, obviously, but it does seem logical to me: 'abandoned' by gods, attempting to connect again. 

Yes, I agree with your suggestion, something an early society might do under mounting stress.  If you notice, the writer of that article was speculating too, a little.  The source article by Bob Bower (a respected archaeologist) might tell us more, I think, but somebody with a subscription would need to check it out.  The other reports we've observed included spiritual aspects to the practices.

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Piney
2 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Or possibly they were trying to achieve the spiritual connection - if the elongating was about that for them, of course. I'm just speculating, obviously, but it does seem logical to me: 'abandoned' by gods, attempting to connect again. 

I think it was just "running with the style" which people love to do.

How many soldiers were dressing like Hussars when they were the "top shelf" fighters"? 

Why did the Hussars dress like Sicossaks? 

The Gauls dressed like Franks when they took over. The British aped  the Romans. 

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Helen of Annoy
16 minutes ago, Piney said:

I think it was just "running with the style" which people love to do.

How many soldiers were dressing like Hussars when they were the "top shelf" fighters"? 

Why did the Hussars dress like Sicossaks? 

The Gauls dressed like Franks when they took over. The British aped  the Romans. 

Well observed. But when someone's imitating the style, it's rarely purely visual appeal, they usually want to invoke (or project) the traits they associate with certain look.

If certain groups were associating higher spiritual potential with the elongated skull, it's was absolutely logical, from the point of their belief, to elongate more skulls in order to have better connections with the gods. 

Or they simply started losing the structure of the society and anyone was free to imply with shaping their kids' skulls they're more special than the others. 

 

It would be so convenient if bones could actually talk. 

 

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Pettytalk
4 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

It would be so convenient if bones could actually talk. 

 

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