"Was Yahweh an Edomite or Canaanite god"

[ellapenella]

Question: "Was Yahweh originally a Edomite or Canaanite god?"

Answer: The idea that Yahweh started out as an Edomite, Midianite, or Canaanite deity is a modern myth promoted by secular scholars. The starting point for these theorists is an anti-scholarly bias against the possibility that God is who the Bible says He is, namely, the one-and-only Creator, Author of life, Judge, and Savior of the world (Genesis 1:1; 18:25; Acts 3:15; John 3:16). Rather than acknowledge that God made man in God’s image (Genesis 1:26–27), they assume that man made God in man’s image. And when you begin with a premise that is an error, you’re guaranteed an invalid conclusion.

The false theory that Yahweh, the God of the Bible, was created out of the chief god of Edom with influence from Midian relies on the following points:
https://www.gotquestions.org/Yahweh-Edomite-Canaanite-god.html

[zep73]

It's funny you should mention Genesis 1:26, because that states plural gods. Elohim, mentioned 2,366 times in the bible means 'many gods'.

Scholars are always closer to the truth, because they are not limited by one single source.

[XenoFish]

This is the second 'rant' thread I've seen today...

[Podo]

All of the modern scholarship shows that Yahweh was a Caananite god, with some evidence of it even being a forge-god in the Bronze Age. But Christians don't care about facts, they only care about their feelings.

My first link is wikipedia, which isn't the best source, but I linked it because of the excellent list of sources on its own page. Any of them are more than enough to substantiate Yahweh's position as a pre-jewish deity.

[cormac mac airt]

The OP presupposes that the Bible is a fact and therefore anything else is wrong. Secular scholars aren't the problem, assuming the conclusion by believers IS. Yahweh was an Edomite/Midianite god at the same time that El was worshipped in Canaan and the former WAS NEVER a Creator deity originally. The Bible even says that Yahweh was the god of Jethro, A MIDIANITE. 

Xenofish has it right, this is just a rant thread. 

 

Source:  Who Were The Early Israelites And Where Did They Come From?  (William G. Dever)  2003

Source:  Yahweh And The Gods And Goddesses Of Canaan  (John Day)  2002

Source:  Early History Of God: Yahweh And The Other Deities In Ancient Israel  (Mark S. Smith)  2001

cormac

[ExpandMyMind]

I know someone who must surely have all the answers.

 

[VastLand]

58 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

Question: "Was Yahweh originally a Edomite or Canaanite god?"

Answer: The idea that Yahweh started out as an Edomite, Midianite, or Canaanite deity is a modern myth promoted by secular scholars. The starting point for these theorists is an anti-scholarly bias against the possibility that God is who the Bible says He is, namely, the one-and-only Creator, Author of life, Judge, and Savior of the world (Genesis 1:1; 18:25; Acts 3:15; John 3:16). Rather than acknowledge that God made man in God’s image (Genesis 1:26–27), they assume that man made God in man’s image. And when you begin with a premise that is an error, you’re guaranteed an invalid conclusion.

The false theory that Yahweh, the God of the Bible, was created out of the chief god of Edom with influence from Midian relies on the following points:
https://www.gotquestions.org/Yahweh-Edomite-Canaanite-god.html

I am glad that you started this thread, and I shall happily give my opinion:

To understand these topics, of names for "god", we must first understand that Israel, in the Ancient past, were primarily under an Eastern Philosophical perspective, and thus these people lived life judging and describing the world around them, through actions, and functions. Rather than the western philosophy, which is based on appearances.

A noun, is very much like a verb, and adjective, simultaneously, as the character of anything is determined by it's actions. Where as in Western philosophy, objects are described static, in Eastern philosophy objects are described like subjects in motion (I mean in the personified sense). 

In Israel, traditionally, as can be found in Torah, they used numerous names to describe the wealthy character of god. To understand Spirit, these various names noted aspects of creator's nature.

Examples: El Shaddai: My breast of power; Eheyah Asher Eheyah: Exist Happy Exist; Elah: She mighty shephard, alternatively: She power; Ruahh: Wind (word for spirit).

Now then, to best understand Hebrew, we must look to the older system of writing, called "West Semitic", also referred to as "Paleo-hebrew", in which every individual letter, is a pictogram (picto-,image; -gram, alphabetical letter), with a specific extension of meanings, designed around the function of the object that the letter represents. Each of these individual letters come together to form "parent roots", where each individual letter work together to spell out an object in motion. 

For a better understanding in all this, it is best to start reading the works of Jeff A. Benner. His website: https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/           His Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6JJpa_DEnsRZEgGk7yEGAQ

Alrighty, now that all this is out of the way, we understand that there was more than one name for him, and each one was created through time, meaning, that in different eras, new names can surface. 

The name "Yahweh", which is more likely to have been pronounced "Yahuah" in early Yahudit, (language of the Yahudim{Jews)), is actually four different letters: (יהוה), from right to left, Yad, Het, Wau, Het. These individual letters are the pictograms: Yad(arm and hand), Het(man with hands raised, in surprise), Wau(tent stake), Het(man with hands raised, in surprise). 

There are two possibilities for root words, to this Proper Noun. Either "Yahu", having to do with praise, as in the name "Yahudah"; or "Huah", having to do with breath. The most common opinion, is that this name comes from the root "Huah", which is probably grammatically correct. Huah, is the Pictograms: "man surprised", "tent stake", "man surprised". This word "Huah" is a child root, coming from the parent root "Hah", and represents a man doubly surprised, he will "exhale his breath", in the form of "exhale", "sigh", "voice" , breath is a quality gifted by Spirit, and represents "Exist", as when a man speaks out, he makes himself known to exist. "Huah" then, has a masculine in-fix added to a feminine word, and may mean "he exist". 

Now, with "Huah", the root word, a Yad becomes the pre-fix, and this pictogram is an "arm and hand", changing the meaning to, "he existed", although peculiar, to our language, in past tense, for Hebrew speakers, this is simply a "complete action", as an action that has already been completed. To the Israeli, "Yahuah" denotes the aspect of Spirit, that is "completed existence".

This name then, is not a canaanite tradition, but a name that was derived from a particular object, breath, as creator is known to breathe first man to life...

[ellapenella]

58 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

The OP presupposes that the Bible is a fact and therefore anything else is wrong. Secular scholars aren't the problem, assuming the conclusion by believers IS. Yahweh was an Edomite/Midianite god at the same time that El was worshipped in Canaan and the former WAS NEVER a Creator deity originally. The Bible even says that Yahweh was the god of Jethro, A MIDIANITE. 

Xenofish has it right, this is just a rant thread. 

 

Source:  Who Were The Early Israelites And Where Did They Come From?  (William G. Dever)  2003

Source:  Yahweh And The Gods And Goddesses Of Canaan  (John Day)  2002

Source:  Early History Of God: Yahweh And The Other Deities In Ancient Israel  (Mark S. Smith)  2001

cormac

I would like to discuss things you keep mentioning , so I thought this would be  a proper setting, thread to  talk about those things, that's all.

 

Quote

The Bible even says that Yahweh was the god of Jethro, A MIDIANITE. 

Can you show me where you read that in the bible? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jodie.Lynne]

2 hours ago, Ellapennella said:

Question: "Was Yahweh originally a Edomite or Canaanite god?"

Answer: The idea that Yahweh started out as an Edomite, Midianite, or Canaanite deity is a modern myth promoted by secular scholars. The starting point for these theorists is an anti-scholarly bias against the possibility that God is who the Bible says He is, namely, the one-and-only Creator, Author of life, Judge, and Savior of the world (Genesis 1:1; 18:25; Acts 3:15; John 3:16). Rather than acknowledge that God made man in God’s image (Genesis 1:26–27), they assume that man made God in man’s image. And when you begin with a premise that is an error, you’re guaranteed an invalid conclusion.

The false theory that Yahweh, the God of the Bible, was created out of the chief god of Edom with influence from Midian relies on the following points:
https://www.gotquestions.org/Yahweh-Edomite-Canaanite-god.html

You've posed as question, and an answer. 

 

What is the point of a discussion, when you have already closed your mind to other possibilities?

You already have the answer that you "KNOW" is right, so why bother? It isn't likely that anything anyone posts that contradicts your beliefs, is going to change your mind.

 

Mods might as well lock this thread now.

[Jodie.Lynne]

1 hour ago, ExpandMyMind said:

I know someone who must surely have all the answers.

 

This idiot scares the carp out of me! A narcissistic ego-maniac who is "never wrong" and "persecuted" by his "enemies". He has even gone as far as saying that Jews who don't support him are "disloyal".

 

Call me paranoid if you wish, but the last time rhetoric like his was used was back in 1939...

[ellapenella]

47 minutes ago, VastLand said:

I am glad that you started this thread, and I shall happily give my opinion:

To understand these topics, of names for "god", we must first understand that Israel, in the Ancient past, were primarily under an Eastern Philosophical perspective, and thus these people lived life judging and describing the world around them, through actions, and functions. Rather than the western philosophy, which is based on appearances.

A noun, is very much like a verb, and adjective, simultaneously, as the character of anything is determined by it's actions. Where as in Western philosophy, objects are described static, in Eastern philosophy objects are described like subjects in motion (I mean in the personified sense). 

In Israel, traditionally, as can be found in Torah, they used numerous names to describe the wealthy character of god. To understand Spirit, these various names noted aspects of creator's nature.

Examples: El Shaddai: My breast of power; Eheyah Asher Eheyah: Exist Happy Exist; Elah: She mighty shephard, alternatively: She power; Ruahh: Wind (word for spirit).

Now then, to best understand Hebrew, we must look to the older system of writing, called "West Semitic", also referred to as "Paleo-hebrew", in which every individual letter, is a pictogram (picto-,image; -gram, alphabetical letter), with a specific extension of meanings, designed around the function of the object that the letter represents. Each of these individual letters come together to form "parent roots", where each individual letter work together to spell out an object in motion. 

For a better understanding in all this, it is best to start reading the works of Jeff A. Benner. His website: https://www.ancient-hebrew.org/           His Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6JJpa_DEnsRZEgGk7yEGAQ

Alrighty, now that all this is out of the way, we understand that there was more than one name for him, and each one was created through time, meaning, that in different eras, new names can surface. 

The name "Yahweh", which is more likely to have been pronounced "Yahuah" in early Yahudit, (language of the Yahudim{Jews)), is actually four different letters: (יהוה), from right to left, Yad, Het, Wau, Het. These individual letters are the pictograms: Yad(arm and hand), Het(man with hands raised, in surprise), Wau(tent stake), Het(man with hands raised, in surprise). 

There are two possibilities for root words, to this Proper Noun. Either "Yahu", having to do with praise, as in the name "Yahudah"; or "Huah", having to do with breath. The most common opinion, is that this name comes from the root "Huah", which is probably grammatically correct. Huah, is the Pictograms: "man surprised", "tent stake", "man surprised". This word "Huah" is a child root, coming from the parent root "Hah", and represents a man doubly surprised, he will "exhale his breath", in the form of "exhale", "sigh", "voice" , breath is a quality gifted by Spirit, and represents "Exist", as when a man speaks out, he makes himself known to exist. "Huah" then, has a masculine in-fix added to a feminine word, and may mean "he exist". 

Now, with "Huah", the root word, a Yad becomes the pre-fix, and this pictogram is an "arm and hand", changing the meaning to, "he existed", although peculiar, to our language, in past tense, for Hebrew speakers, this is simply a "complete action", as an action that has already been completed. To the Israeli, "Yahuah" denotes the aspect of Spirit, that is "completed existence".

This name then, is not a canaanite tradition, but a name that was derived from a particular object, breath, as creator is known to breathe first man to life...

That was fun to read, incredible. It's something I will be  thinking about, spiritually.   I appreciate that  you  took the time to  share that .  

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by Ellapennella

[Jodie.Lynne]

13 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

I would like to discuss things you keep mentioning , so I thought this would be  a proper setting, thread to  talk about those things, that's all.

 

I have always been taught that a discussion, is the exchange of ideas and viewpoints, however, your thread is a fiat - a statement of "fact" as you perceive it. You are right, other viewpoints are wrong. It is therefore impossible to have a 'discussion".

[Jodie.Lynne]

Quote

In the Hebrew Bible, Jethro (/ˈdʒɛθroʊ/; Hebrew: יִתְרוֹ, Standard Yitro Tiberian Yiṯerô; "His Excellence/Posterity"; Arabic: شعيب Shuʿayb) or Reuel was Moses' father-in-law, a Kenite shepherd and priest of Midian.^[1] In Exodus, Moses' father-in-law is initially referred to as "Reuel" (Exodus 2:18) but then as "Jethro" (Exodus 3:1). He was the father of Hobab in the Book of Numbers 10:29.^[2] He is also revered as the spiritual founder and chief prophet in his own right of the Druze religion^[3][4][5] and is considered an ancestor of all Druze.^[6][7]

^^^ From Wikipedia.

 

Quote

Question: "Who was Jethro in the Bible?"

Answer: Jethro was the father-in-law of Moses and father of Zipporah. Jethro is first mentioned in the Bible in Exodus 2:16 where he is described as “a priest of Midian.” He is also referred to as Reuel (verse 18), which could indicate the equivalent of a last name. The name Reuel means “friend of God,” so the fact that the Bible calls him first by this name may mean that he was a priest of the Most High God, rather than a pagan deity as some have suggested. Many people in the Bible were called by two names such as Jacob (Israel, Genesis 35:10), Simon (Peter, Luke 6:14), Matthew (Levi, Mark 2:14; Matthew 9:9), and Paul (Saul, Acts 13:9). Sometimes the name change was due to an encounter with God. Other times it may have simply been a second name, in the way that a man named Ben Jones may be called both “Ben” and “Jones.”

Exodus 2 details the account of Moses’ first encounter with Jethro. When Moses was on the run from Pharaoh, after having killed an Egyptian, he found himself in Midian by a well. Jethro’s seven daughters were shepherdesses who came to the well to water their sheep. However, some men chased the women away, and Moses came to their defense. In gratitude for Moses’ care of his daughters, Jethro invited him for dinner.

Over the course of time, Jethro gave his daughter Zipporah to Moses for a wife, and they had two sons (Exodus 2:21; 4:20). Moses stayed with the Midianites for forty years until God called to him from the burning bush (Exodus 3). Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, gave him his blessing to return to his people in obedience to God (Exodus 4:18).

 

^^^ from:  Got Questions Ministries

https://www.gotquestions.org/Jethro-in-the-Bible.html

[ellapenella]

2 hours ago, Podo said:

All of the modern scholarship shows that Yahweh was a Caananite god, with some evidence of it even being a forge-god in the Bronze Age. But Christians don't care about facts, they only care about their feelings.

My first link is wikipedia, which isn't the best source, but I linked it because of the excellent list of sources on its own page. Any of them are more than enough to substantiate Yahweh's position as a pre-jewish deity.

People should always care about facts.

 

 

[ellapenella]

11 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

 

Over the course of time, Jethro gave his daughter Zipporah to Moses for a wife, and they had two sons (Exodus 2:21; 4:20). Moses stayed with the Midianites for forty years until God called to him from the burning bush (Exodus 3). Jethro, Moses’ father-in-law, gave him his blessing to return to his people in obedience to God (Exodus 4:18).

https://www.gotquestions.org/Jethro-in-the-Bible.html

So, that still doesn't say what cormac was suggesting. 

[cormac mac airt]

28 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

I would like to discuss things you keep mentioning , so I thought this would be  a proper setting, thread to  talk about those things, that's all.

Can you show me where you read that in the bible? 

Quote

 

 3:1 ¶ Now Möšè מֹשֶׁה 4872 kept 1961 7462 z8804 z8802 x853 the flock 6629 of Yi±rô יִתרוֹ3503 his father in law, 2859 z8802 the priest 3548 of Miðyän מִדיָן: 4080 and he led 5090 z8799 x853the flock 6629 to the backside 310 of the desert, 4057 and came 935 z8799 to x413 the mountain2022 of ´Élöhîm אֱלֹהִים, 430 [even] to Çörëv חֹרֵב. 2722

3:2 And the angel 4397 of Yähwè יָהוֶה 3068 appeared 7200 z8735 unto x413 him in a flame3827 of fire 784 out of the midst 8432 x4480 of a bush: 5572 and he looked, 7200 z8799 and, behold,x2009 the bush 5572 burned 1197 z8802 with fire, 784 and the bush 5572 [was] not x369 consumed.398 z8794

 

http://qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/exodus/3.html

Meaning Jethro, the Priest of Midian, was a priest of Yahweh. Elohim is plural and originally describes "the sons of El" which was NOT Yahweh originally, although Yahweh would eventually be given a place as a son of El before eventually superceding El as "the one" god. At that later point the two were merged both religiously and linguistically. 

ALL epithets such as El Shaddai, El Elyon, etc. are original to the Canaanite deity El BEFORE Yahweh was ever mentioned in the Bible. Even the name Isra-EL honors the Canaanite deity originally. 

cormac

[Jodie.Lynne]

6 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

So, that still doesn't say what cormac was suggesting. 

Quote

Jethro is first mentioned in the Bible in Exodus 2:16 where he is described as “a priest of Midian.” He is also referred to as Reuel (verse 18), which could indicate the equivalent of a last name. The name Reuel means “friend of God,” so the fact that the Bible calls him first by this name may mean that he was a priest of the Most High God, rather than a pagan deity as some have suggested.

What was that you said?  "People should always care about facts. "

[ellapenella]

8 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

http://qbible.com/hebrew-old-testament/exodus/3.html

Meaning Jethro, the Priest of Midian, was a priest of Yahweh. Elohim is plural and originally describes "the sons of El" which was NOT Yahweh originally, although Yahweh would eventually be given a place as a son of El before eventually superceding El as "the one" god. At that later point the two were merged both religiously and linguistically. 

ALL epithets such as El Shaddai, El Elyon, etc. are original to the Canaanite deity El BEFORE Yahweh was ever mentioned in the Bible. Even the name Isra-EL honors the Canaanite deity originally. 

cormac

Can you explain how you come to determine a connection  of  the names.  I don't think they are one in the same. How are you determining this ?

 God’s name in Scripture is transliterated from the Hebrew as YHWH, probably meaning “I Am” (Exodus 3:13–14). There is an obscure reference in a 13th-century BC Egyptian document to a region in Edom associated with JWH, possibly indicating that JWH was a national god of Edom. Of course, the spelling JWH is similar to YHWH.

[ellapenella]

3 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

What was that you said?  "People should always care about facts. "

Such facts like the Egyptian inaccurate  timeline.

[Jodie.Lynne]

9 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

Such facts like the Egyptian inaccurate  timeline.

Explain please.

 

[cormac mac airt]

23 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

Can you explain how you come to determine a connection  of  the names.  I don't think they are one in the same. How are you determining this ?

 God’s name in Scripture is transliterated from the Hebrew as YHWH, probably meaning “I Am” (Exodus 3:13–14). There is an obscure reference in a 13th-century BC Egyptian document to a region in Edom associated with JWH, possibly indicating that JWH was a national god of Edom. Of course, the spelling JWH is similar to YHWH.

Gods name in Exodus 3 is YAHWEH and is the Biblical explanation for why Moses DIDN'T know him by that name before entering Midian. Nowhere before that is his name given as such. Before that it's an epithet of El, as in El Shaddai, El Elyon, etc., ALL Canaanite derivitives. And what you are referring to is the "Shasu of YHWH", which is indeed considered by scholars as Yahweh but there were several groups of Shasu who were a loose grouping of people and most definitely NOT Hebrew, strictly speaking. 

BTW, it's know amongst linguistic scholars that those sections preferring either the El epithets, or usage of Yahweh, were written by entirely different scribes at different times, likely from different locations.

cormac

Edited August 22, 2019 by cormac mac airt

[ellapenella]

6 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Jethro is first mentioned in the Bible in Exodus 2:16 where he is described as “a priest of Midian.” 

the name Reuel means “friend of God,” so the fact that the Bible calls him first by this name may mean that he was a priest of the Most High God, rather than a pagan deity as some have suggested.

You're presenting commentary in the underlined, right?  I don't know what you're suggesting exactly. What are you suggesting? 

[ellapenella]

4 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Explain please.

 

You know about it, no? 

[Jodie.Lynne]

Just now, Ellapennella said:

You're presenting commentary in the underlined, right?  I don't know what you're suggesting exactly. What are you suggesting? 

Read what I quoted. This stuff is in YOUR holy book, look it up, the relevant chapters are there, and YOU tell ME what you think it means.

[Jodie.Lynne]

6 minutes ago, Ellapennella said:

You know about it, no? 

If I knew what you were saying, would I be asking?

 

FYT: you are not filling me with reassurance here, in fact, you are reinforcing my earlier opinion that thread is a waste of everyone's time.

No matter what evidence is presented, you are merely going to feign ignorance.