Defining God/s.

[Jodie.Lynne]

48 minutes ago, Guyver said:

The universe, to a materialist... >snip<

Are you a materialist? Is it not presumptuous to speak on behalf of those whose views you do not share?

Or is it ok for me to say "Theists think..." ?

[Guyver]

33 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Are you a materialist? Is it not presumptuous to speak on behalf of those whose views you do not share?

Or is it ok for me to say "Theists think..." ?

I am not a materialist, but I understand it completely from a literal standpoint and consider it the simplest of all positions.  How a materialist twists that viewpoint to their own presentation  is another matter....just like every other religious or philosophical position.  FWIW.

[Guyver]

39 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

Are you a materialist? Is it not presumptuous to speak on behalf of those whose views you do not share?

Or is it ok for me to say "Theists think..." ?

I received my education on Materialism from the Science Department Chair when I was in college.  He summed the position succinctly in two sentences.  Materialism is the position that all that exists is completely natural and there is no such thing as spirit.  

Do you see it differently?  

[Jodie.Lynne]

1 minute ago, Guyver said:

How a materialist theist twists that viewpoint to their own presentation 

Fixed that typo for you. You're welcome

So, you can fully understand another's viewpoint? By what standard?

Can you 'fully understand' the thoughts of a POC? A woman? A victim of racial/ethnic/religious oppression? If so, then you are truly an exceptional example of humanity.

 

However, the cynic in me thinks that you are merely interpreting what you believe is another's viewpoint, coloured through the filter of your own world view. That isn't necessarily something to be ashamed of, it shows that you are human. With biases, just like everyone else.

[Jodie.Lynne]

4 minutes ago, Guyver said:

 Materialism is the position that all that exists is completely natural and there is no such thing as spirit.  

I can agree with this statement... IF we can agree on what is meant by 'spirit'. Does it mean what is classed as 'supernatural', or a more mundane subject, like 'team spirit'?

[Guyver]

5 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I can agree with this statement... IF we can agree on what is meant by 'spirit'. Does it mean what is classed as 'supernatural', or a more mundane subject, like 'team spirit'?

Team spirit cannot be denied.  A hundred thousand people squeeze into 4 acres to watch Clemson football.  They live for it.  Real spirit means that which is not measured physically but is denied by some...like you.  You don’t know spirit but some of us do and frankly I don’t wish to argue it because I no longer care what other people believe.  So, I see myself not talking much more about it here for now.

i wish that peace be with you.

[Jodie.Lynne]

2 minutes ago, Guyver said:

A hundred thousand people squeeze into 4 acres to watch Clemson football.  They live for it.

So a human emotion, a fervor for something one is passionate about.  Yeah, I get that.

But what you mean by "real spirit" eludes me.

[Guyver]

11 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

So a human emotion, a fervor for something one is passionate about.  Yeah, I get that.

But what you mean by "real spirit" eludes me.

Real spirit, as I see it is not a physical thing as other physical things can be proven or understood.  It’s a thing that exists in the real world but is not understood or explained.  Yet, some people have experienced it, or believe in it, so they have opinions about it.  I am one of those.  It’s just that since I don’t wish to proselytize I don’t have to force my position.

Its kinda like ufo’s.  There are people who perceive ufos as aliens, then there are people like me who have seen one, but don’t necessarily consider it alien from the standpoint of little grey men....then there are other people who consider the whole thing fake.  Everybody gets to see things as they wish, but the fact of the matter is unproven.

To say that there is no such thing as ufos is the worst position from a logical position, and to say that ufos are aliens from another galaxy is the least provable.  But to accept that ufos exist and are exactly what they are by definition.. literally unknown, is the most sensible one as I see things.  I would apply that same kind of thought pattern to spirit. FWIW.

[Habitat]

51 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I can agree with this statement... IF we can agree on what is meant by 'spirit'. Does it mean what is classed as 'supernatural', or a more mundane subject, like 'team spirit'?

Team ? What team ?

[Mr Walker]

On 9/18/2019 at 11:23 PM, Alchopwn said:

No, it only "sort of" works.  People have a remarkable ability to convince themselves that something is working when nothing has changed but their mind.  Really the placebo effect is a form of positive self deception.  Most of the time placebo studies focus on pain management, not the actual enhancement of the body to heal itself, and that leads to an exaggerated statement of the effectiveness of placebos.

My point is that  faith is always a form of ignorance, and that (on inspection of the details), is never actually a good thing, even if your luck is holding, as relying on luck is a form of incompetence.

I offer you the example of the Flat Earth Society.

I think I would need to review this evidence you are referring to.  Logical faith is an oxymoron to me btw.

This statement flies in the face of the teachings of Gnosticism, and owes more to the deliberate disempowerment of the congregation by the Catholic Church.  Faith has always been used as an excuse.  If something works, it was because of faith, if something doesn't work you didn't have enough faith.  It is pure confirmation bias and never stands up to any meaningful scrutiny.

Given that you cannot know god, according to most Christian theology, (because God is apparently unknowable), all you wind up with is a second hand second best religion.  I am surprised you don't see what a con job faith is.  Saying you have faith is like buying the snake oil or drinking the cool aid.

Again, this world view, though known to me, is incomprehensible. Maybe its because i was raised secular humanist and never indoctrinated in catholic beleifs

ALL human experience exists primarily in the mind /self aware consciousness Thus change a mind and you change reality.

  Secondly, because mind and body are so tightly interfaced, change the mind and you often change (eg heal or harm) the physical body  Faith has been proven to greatly reduce pain, (up to 50% in clinical trials)  and also to significantly improve the rate and success of healing from  trauma and illness.

A person who believes in a flat earth either has not  been offered convincing evidence that the earth is a spheroid. OR they are mentally unwell .

The first is often the result of a failure to take on faith evidences offered second hand via media, books, or the teaching of others  They dont believe the experts and dont have personal experience to prove the earth is a sphere.  

And of course you can know god, if god is real.

All real things are knowable. Generally those who want to define god as unknowable are either those who also argue it does not actually exist, or those who fear a knowable physical and powerful god, present in their lives. 

[brian100]

2 hours ago, Guyver said:

Not really.  If the universe is not intelligent it can’t be defined as God in the sense that most people accept because God is considered by so many as the Supreme Being with supreme intelligence.  I mean from a western mindset.  The Buddhists don’t consider the universe in that way.

The universe, to a materialist is only God in the sense that it is the thing that caused their creation.  But it was unintentional like a flood, or a stubbed toe.  In that sense I guess it’s easy to see why some of them consider existence meaningless.

I believe that meaning exists because we ascribe it.  Therefore, meaning is as we humans consider it.

 

You just said the universe is the source of life.

[brian100]

So if the universe is unintelligent that pretty much contradicts your belief that it created our parents.

[brian100]

If I take a seed and bury it, and give it light and water, it begins to grow and have life. So, therefore light is God. Just giving it water does nothing.

[Habitat]

The seed will start sprouting without light, Brian.

[ThereWeAreThen]

3 hours ago, brian100 said:

You just said the universe is the source of life.

That doesn't mean God. 

[brian100]

15 hours ago, Habitat said:

The seed will start sprouting without light, Brian.

Well of course b/c at night there is a spectrum of light existing coming from space.

[Guyver]

22 hours ago, brian100 said:

You just said the universe is the source of life.

Damn straight,  of course I did.  How could it be any other way?  Only a fool would think othrwie.

 

[brian100]

1 hour ago, Guyver said:

Damn straight,  of course I did.  How could it be any other way?  Only a fool would think othrwie.

 

The Universe gave me life? what is the Universe.

You said its unintelligent.   But the Universe isn't just one thing, its like a description 'for everything that is not nothing'. So you need to be more specific.

 

Unless you are saying the Universe is God. Which means everything is God.

 

That's what Einstein believed, I, think.. and its called Pantheism.

Edited September 21, 2019 by brian100
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[rashore]

On 9/20/2019 at 1:27 AM, brian100 said:

If I take a seed and bury it, and give it light and water, it begins to grow and have life. So, therefore light is God. Just giving it water does nothing.

When you take a seed a bury it- you are giving it the darkness it needs to be able to sprout. Most seeds need darkness, that's why you bury them. Few seeds depend on light conditions for sprouting.

Just giving a seed water does most of the work. A common germination test is to take two plates, line them with damp paper towels with seeds in the middle of the towels. They get set aside in the wet dark place to germinate. Some folks use plastic bags or containers, and store in a dark place. Seeds are "sleeping" till moisture triggers them to start the sprouting process.

Temperature is another critical element for seed sprouting. Seeds need some different temperature ranges for sprouting.

Some seeds also need more treatment to be able to sprout, like passing through animals, fermenting/rotting, being chilled/frozen, being subjected to fire.

If all those conditions work right, it's after the sprouting and the seedling pushes itself out of the dirt does it then need light. Even then, light levels vary depending on the plant.

[brian100]

There is lots of seed buried in the ground waiting to sprout but they are too deep. Seeds need earth to root, not darkness. And light (and warmth) to germinate.

If a grain of wheat dies and his buried in the ground many more will be born in its name. 

Edited September 21, 2019 by brian100
add more.

[rashore]

23 minutes ago, brian100 said:

There is lots of seed buried in the ground waiting to sprout but they are too deep. Seeds need earth to root, not darkness.

If a grain of wheat dies and his buried in the ground many more will be born in its name. 

Seriously, seeds need dark. It's plant growing 101. Until the sprout is able to process light with its cotyledons, light can hinder or kill sprouts. Seeds buried too deeply can fail to sprout, or sprout and fail to grow enough to break through the dirt before it falters and dies off. Seeds don't really need earth to root either- many can be grown hydroponically or aeroponically. There are even plants that utilize air roots or are air plants.

A grain of wheat that dies is a dead seed. Non-viable, it won't sprout to grow anything. A seed is the living offspring of the parent plant.

[brian100]

So you're saying a seed won't sprout unless its totally dark?

I placed seeds in a dark container and nothing sprouted.  I can define God as light as the seed need the warmth of light in the soil to sprout.

Edited September 21, 2019 by brian100
typo

[rashore]

4 minutes ago, brian100 said:

So you're saying a seed won't sprout unless its totally dark?

I placed seeds in a dark container and nothing sprouted.

Unfortunate you didn't get sprouts. You may not have had viable seed, or had something wrong with planting. It wasn't from using a dark container- almost all standard nursery pots are black. I successfully sprout hundreds of seeds in dark pots every year, as do many other folks.

Not all seeds require darkness, but many do. Many will not sprout unless it's totally dark. Depends on phytochrome levels and trigger reliance on the phytochrome levels of the seed.

But I think we may be straying a bit much into plant sciences at this point. Deities aren't really defined by how plants work.

[brian100]

No I was defining god as light and some dude said light isn't everywhere. And I said it was b/c even though you can't see light it travels thru everything in the form of radiation or what not. And they said seeds need no light to grow. So naturally I said yeah right.

Edited September 21, 2019 by brian100
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[rashore]

10 minutes ago, brian100 said:

No I was defining god as light and some dude said light isn't everywhere. And I said it was b/c even though you can't see light it travels thru everything in the form of radiation or what not. And they said seeds need no light to grow. So naturally I said yeah right.

Well, someone said life can and does exist without light. Which is correct. There is life where there is never light. You are the one that opted to go with seeds need light and water does nothing. Which is incorrect. Water is one of the main requirements for a seed to sprout. The person that said seeds need no light to grow was correct, since most seeds do need darkness and light can hinder or stop their sprouting.

So the analogy of a deity being light, and that deity light is the main requirement for a seed to sprout is mostly to completely off. It would be more accurate to after the seed stage and into seedling on when the plant is then able to safely and productively process light. Or perhaps an analogy of water being the deity, and the deity water evoking life in the seed- if other necessary conditions are also present. Water can be just as fickle a deity as light- in the right amounts it's great, in the wrong amounts it can hinder or kill a seed.