Defining God/s.

[+Desertrat56]

12 hours ago, brian100 said:

Faith shouldn't be just blind faith, so go have a look at what is out there. For me it, I was so happy they had  a shroud of Turin b/c everyone was always saying Catholicism was fake.

This made me chuckle.  Who is always saying Catholicism was fake?  The shroud has never been proven as a real artifact and even though some think it is, it doesn't matter.  It is a belief based on stories that are mostly unverifiable, a big story used to keep people feeling guilty for being human and giving all their money to the empire.

[Guyver]

14 hours ago, joc said:

Then again...there may be zero people....

You are just making it up as you go along...seems a lot of people like doing that.  You cannot 'add' anything to the universe. The universe is not an entity...it doesn't know, care what you think.

I don’t know if you ever take the time to consider another person’s position on a given matter, but I do.  And here’s what I think about someone like you.  I don’t understand how any true materialist, doesn’t at least understand they were made by the universe.  

Even if you believe nothing else, and only accept science, you must admit at the very least that something made you, and in your case, it is the universe that made you.  

A couple of points on that matter......

1) I don’t think you know jack diddley about the universe and neither do I.

2)  I see the universe as perfect precision where nothing is wasted and nothing is meaningless.

we are very different

[Mr Walker]

18 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

What is the value of being compelled by a superstitious misunderstanding ?  It is identical to worshiping a graven image, or a dildo.  It is a shabby substitute for the real thing, and more likely to lead you astray than your actual enemies. 

The value is immense, and so great  that it has become an evolved  cognitive survival trait in the human race.

The value is in the belief, and the positive effect that belief has on mind and body.

  

[Alchopwn]

5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The value is immense, and so great  that it has become an evolved  cognitive survival trait in the human race.

When pulled apart, Faith is the belief in a proposition without evidence.  At its most extreme, faith is belief in the face of compelling evidence to the contrary.  By and large, it means having confidence in something, and that is the first part of being the victim of deception.  Faith is also the foundation of fanaticism.  You say that its value is immense.  I say it is an immense danger to our continued survival as a species and a dragging anchor on human progress.

5 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The value is in the belief, and the positive effect that belief has on mind and body.

The placebo effect can take many forms, and to claim the full gamut of the placebo effect for religious faith is disingenuous, as it applies equally to homeopathy and the performances of tribal witch-doctors and other medically questionable pursuits. 

[Jodie.Lynne]

8 hours ago, Guyver said:

you must admit at the very least that something made you

To answer this: Yes, my parents did.

Quote

1) I don’t think you know jack diddley about the universe and neither do I.

This statement kind of refutes your certitude that the universe "made" anything, yes? Your use of the word 'made' implies a 'maker' which implies 'intent'. Is that a correct interpretation of your meaning?

[XenoFish]

2 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

The placebo effect can take many forms, and to claim the full gamut of the placebo effect for religious faith is disingenuous, as it applies equally to homeopathy and the performances of tribal witch-doctors and other medically questionable pursuits. 

Placebos have an effect, but they are not a cure. For certain things I suspect they can create a 'cold turkey' effect. They'll never cure cancer. 

[+joc]

9 hours ago, Guyver said:

I don’t know if you ever take the time to consider another person’s position on a given matter, but I do.  And here’s what I think about someone like you.  I don’t understand how any true materialist, doesn’t at least understand they were made by the universe.  

Even if you believe nothing else, and only accept science, you must admit at the very least that something made you, and in your case, it is the universe that made you.  

 

The 'universe' did not make me.  Everything that exists is part of the 'universe'.  The something that made me was my parents.  

You have a brain...it can tell the difference between solid objects and a thought.  Concrete is a solid object.  God is a thought.  Creation is a thought.  Thoughts are nothing more than bio-electric jammerings in the brain.  They have no substance. 

[Alchopwn]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Placebos have an effect, but they are not a cure. For certain things I suspect they can create a 'cold turkey' effect. They'll never cure cancer. 

I remain unconvinced.  There are cases of cancer going into remission and then going away as a result of the placebo effect. The classic example is childhood blastomas, that have gone into remission as a result of placebo treatments and never re-occured. Is that a cure?  As a caveat, I am not suggesting this is common, nor am I endorsing the placebo effect as a cancer treatment; only that this has occurred within the historical record of medicine.

[XenoFish]

5 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

I remain unconvinced.  There are cases of cancer going into remission and then going away as a result of the placebo effect. The classic example is childhood blastomas, that have gone into remission as a result of placebo treatments and never re-occured. Is that a cure?  As a caveat, I am not suggesting this is common, nor am I endorsing the placebo effect as a cancer treatment; only that this has occurred within the historical record of medicine.

The question will always be; how much was it the placebo and how much was the actual treatment?

The thing is, I see both working together. I often wonder how effective energy drinks really are compared to the hype (belief) around their effectiveness. 

[lightly]

Faith is a word.  Many people seem to have an almost violent overreaction to it.   It needn't be constrained to a strictly religious or spiritual context.     (Mr. Walker has said as much)

A person can have faith in or about nearly anything.   Something with out evidence....or in something as simple, mundane, and previously evidenced as the mailman showing up today.

        Faith   1a.  Confident belief ;  trust.

Edited September 17, 2019 by lightly

[+Pettytalk]

3 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

11 hours ago, Guyver said:

you must admit at the very least that something made you

To answer this: Yes, my parents did.

Quote

1) I don’t think you know jack diddley about the universe and neither do I.

This statement kind of refutes your certitude that the universe "made" anything, yes? Your use of the word 'made' implies a 'maker' which implies 'intent'. Is that a correct interpretation of your meaning?

I'm afraid "Solomon the wise" has gotten tangled up in his own thorn bushes. I know Bo Diddley, and Bo says that if you don't know jack didley, his cousin, one cannot tell about any other diddly, especially universal diddly. 

But Bo also tells me that "intent" has something to do with laws. The intent of the law is to put order in a state so that we all can live together under the dominion of a lawful state. Laws are, in essence and by nature, intentional.

Now, the universe, whether created, or existing always, must have an intent since it operates under the influence of absolute physical laws. These physical laws are absolutely more powerful than any administrative laws, since they are inviolable. And where there is law there is intent. Therefore the universe, mandatorily has to follow the laws of nature.

Again, let us ask, what is the intent of the physical laws? To form and shape the universe out of the chaos of its existence. The stars and the planets dance to the beat of harmonious laws, as do the creatures and other lifeforms on this planet we call earth. 

 

[lightly]

I wonder if jack diddley knew diddley squat ?  I never knew diddley squat myself.

;

[lightly]

4 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I remain unconvinced.  There are cases of cancer going into remission and then going away as a result of the placebo effect. The classic example is childhood blastomas, that have gone into remission as a result of placebo treatments and never re-occured. Is that a cure?  As a caveat, I am not suggesting this is common, nor am I endorsing the placebo effect as a cancer treatment; only that this has occurred within the historical record of medicine.

.....your saying that the placebo treatments were the only treatments ?    Right? .. No other treatment ?

[Jodie.Lynne]

6 hours ago, lightly said:

  Faith   1a.  Confident belief ;  trust.

I'm not sure where you got your definition from, this one comes from Mirriam-Webster, and is a little more complete:

Quote

 

Definition of faith

1a : allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty lost faith in the company's president

b(1) : fidelity to one's promises

(2) : sincerity of intentions:  acted in good faith

2a(1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God

(2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion

b(1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof:  clinging to the faith that her missing son would one day return

(2) : complete trust

3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction especially : a system of religious beliefs

 

Walker may not be the best source for confirmation, since he believes that all professions of 'faith' are equal to definitions 2a(1) and (2), and makes no differentiation between 'faith that your car will start (because you maintain it)" and "faith that the FSM will shower you in pasta-y providence".

 

Ever walk across a rickety old wooden bridge? Did you claim "I have complete trust..." and march boldly across, or did you extend tentative faith as you tested each plank for soundness?

I have owned my present vehicle for about 7 months, and each morning it has started without issue. Will it start tomorrow morning? IDK, but I have a level of confidence that it will. You could say, I have 'faith' it will start, but that 'faith' is built upon a past, proven record of reliability; not blind trust.

It is a semantical battle, with 'true believers' claiming that "everyone has faith", equating confident expectations with "firm belief in something for which there is no proof", a rather dishonest stratagem, in my book.

It's like someone asking you if you hate ( ethnic) people and you reply "no". Then they ask you if you hate 'Fred' (who is ethnic), and you reply 'yes, because A, B, and C." And they reply "So, you ARE racist!", ignoring all your reasons for disliking Fred, none of which have to do with his ethnic background.

 

I apologize if I'm not making a lot of sense, I'm kind of scatterbrained at the moment.

[hereticspl]

When we talk about gods or deities we are talking about ourselves. Religious beliefs are constructs to help us make sense of our own identities. I identify as a pagan, not because I actually believe in gods and magic but because I can identify with the values and lessons. When someone says "god hates gays " what they're really saying is "I hate gays". They're just too scared to admit it either to themselves or to others, and by blaming god they can disassociate themselves the consequences both personal and public.

[Mr Walker]

On 9/17/2019 at 6:16 PM, Alchopwn said:

When pulled apart, Faith is the belief in a proposition without evidence.  At its most extreme, faith is belief in the face of compelling evidence to the contrary.  By and large, it means having confidence in something, and that is the first part of being the victim of deception.  Faith is also the foundation of fanaticism.  You say that its value is immense.  I say it is an immense danger to our continued survival as a species and a dragging anchor on human progress.

The placebo effect can take many forms, and to claim the full gamut of the placebo effect for religious faith is disingenuous, as it applies equally to homeopathy and the performances of tribal witch-doctors and other medically questionable pursuits. 

But it works.

Same with placebo effects. The y work There is thus nothing wrong with them.  and indeed the  can provide cheap effective and non addictive cures for many conditions 

I wish i could really understand what you are on about,  and what you believe  because in a way it sounds quite an interesting pov.,  but i suspect something in your life warped your world view beyond my abilty to comprehend it 

I disagree that faith can really persist given compelling evidences to the contrary. What we have are not compelling evidences so they allow room for logical faith 

Indeed as you explain faith is the belief in a proposition WITHOUT evidence 

A person who demands evidences is incapable of belief via faith, and because they probably will never get evidences for gods existence, or the presence of guardian angels,   they are left with nothing  

It is best to know god, but second best is to believe in it via faith . 

[Mr Walker]

16 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I'm not sure where you got your definition from, this one comes from Mirriam-Webster, and is a little more complete:

Walker may not be the best source for confirmation, since he believes that all professions of 'faith' are equal to definitions 2a(1) and (2), and makes no differentiation between 'faith that your car will start (because you maintain it)" and "faith that the FSM will shower you in pasta-y providence".

 

Ever walk across a rickety old wooden bridge? Did you claim "I have complete trust..." and march boldly across, or did you extend tentative faith as you tested each plank for soundness?

I have owned my present vehicle for about 7 months, and each morning it has started without issue. Will it start tomorrow morning? IDK, but I have a level of confidence that it will. You could say, I have 'faith' it will start, but that 'faith' is built upon a past, proven record of reliability; not blind trust.

It is a semantical battle, with 'true believers' claiming that "everyone has faith", equating confident expectations with "firm belief in something for which there is no proof", a rather dishonest stratagem, in my book.

It's like someone asking you if you hate ( ethnic) people and you reply "no". Then they ask you if you hate 'Fred' (who is ethnic), and you reply 'yes, because A, B, and C." And they reply "So, you ARE racist!", ignoring all your reasons for disliking Fred, none of which have to do with his ethnic background.

 

I apologize if I'm not making a lot of sense, I'm kind of scatterbrained at the moment.

No that is not what i believe 

I believe faith is a cognitive construct of the human mind, which we evolved in order to deal with the unknowns that  life produces every day 

Religious faith is one subset of that cognitive construct. Not every body has religious faith

Faith in a person or in the future, or in yourself, are other subsets of the same construct. Almost every human being constructs and uses this form of faith 

Indeed when looking at future  events, which have not yet happened, it always requires some form of faith.

Eg we switch on a light or start a car, believing in faith that it will work. We have to have faith, as we can't know what will happen before hand The fuse might have blown or the battery gone flat, for example, but we don't check those things, we just flip the switch or turn the key,  and have faith that it will work 

 A person with no faith would check everything before flipping the switch, or turning the key.  

[lightly]

16 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I'm not sure where you got your definition from, this one comes from Mirriam-Webster, and is a little more complete:

 

I have owned my present vehicle for about 7 months, and each morning it has started without issue. Will it start tomorrow morning? IDK, but I have a level of confidence that it will. You could say, I have 'faith' it will start, but that 'faith' is built upon a past, proven record of reliability; not blind trust.

 

..I got the definition from my American Heritage Dictionary....in which the second definition :   b.  was.." Belief in God ; religious conviction.    The first meaning listed was,  1.a. Confident belief;  trust

The underlined portion of your other bolded statement agrees with what I was saying...that I could have faith in the mailman showing up today, based on previously evidenced experience.

       Like I said, Faith is a word ..that can be used in many different contexts...and needn't be constrained to a religious or spiritual meaning.

[Alchopwn]

59 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

But it works.

No, it only "sort of" works.  People have a remarkable ability to convince themselves that something is working when nothing has changed but their mind.  Really the placebo effect is a form of positive self deception.  Most of the time placebo studies focus on pain management, not the actual enhancement of the body to heal itself, and that leads to an exaggerated statement of the effectiveness of placebos.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

I wish i could really understand what you are on about,  and what you believe  because in a way it sounds quite an interesting pov.,  but i suspect something in your life warped your world view beyond my abilty to comprehend it 

My point is that  faith is always a form of ignorance, and that (on inspection of the details), is never actually a good thing, even if your luck is holding, as relying on luck is a form of incompetence.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

I disagree that faith can really persist given compelling evidences to the contrary. 

I offer you the example of the Flat Earth Society.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

What we have are not compelling evidences so they allow room for logical faith 

I think I would need to review this evidence you are referring to.  Logical faith is an oxymoron to me btw.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

A person who demands evidences is incapable of belief via faith, and because they probably will never get evidences for gods existence, or the presence of guardian angels,   they are left with nothing  

This statement flies in the face of the teachings of Gnosticism, and owes more to the deliberate disempowerment of the congregation by the Catholic Church.  Faith has always been used as an excuse.  If something works, it was because of faith, if something doesn't work you didn't have enough faith.  It is pure confirmation bias and never stands up to any meaningful scrutiny.

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

It is best to know god, but second best is to believe in it via faith . 

Given that you cannot know god, according to most Christian theology, (because God is apparently unknowable), all you wind up with is a second hand second best religion.  I am surprised you don't see what a con job faith is.  Saying you have faith is like buying the snake oil or drinking the cool aid.

[Jodie.Lynne]

8 hours ago, lightly said:

 Like I said, Faith is a word ..that can be used in many different contexts...and needn't be constrained to a religious or spiritual meaning.

I agree with you. However, many theists conflate the meanings. That their faith in the unprovable is as strong, valid, and logical as your 'belief' that the mailman will show up today.

[+Hammerclaw]

1 hour ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I agree with you. However, many theists conflate the meanings. That their faith in the unprovable is as strong, valid, and logical as your 'belief' that the mailman will show up today.

We have big Faith and little faith and God only knows if the mailman shows up, at all.

[Jodie.Lynne]

21 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

We have big Faith and little faith and God only knows if the mailman shows up, at all.

And if he does, the mailman might be a she.

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

And if he does, the mailman might be a she.

A shemailman? 

[Jodie.Lynne]

Just now, XenoFish said:

A shemailman? 

A MailSheman?

A MailFemaleman?

[+Hammerclaw]

1 minute ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

And if he does, the mailman might be a she.

You mean a "man" with the prefix "wo"?