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Alchopwn

Defining God/s.

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Wes83

Is existence and our experiences of that existence not enough to give you reason to be awe inspired in a divine way? Inseparable from the divinity itself, yet we seldom realize it. 

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XenoFish
23 minutes ago, Wes83 said:

Is existence and our experiences of that existence not enough to give you reason to be awe inspired in a divine way? Inseparable from the divinity itself, yet we seldom realize it. 

Who's to say there is any divinity in our exist or our existence is divine.

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Stubbly_Dooright
1 hour ago, Will Due said:
1 hour ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I don’t think, you factor in the possibility that I have tried that. And yeah, to be sure. Though, not to really eliminate your belief from the situation, the thing is, considering your belief is like trying to fashion a key out of soap, and doing that in the shower. ;)  :devil:  I just cannot accept it to fit it in the ‘try it out phase’ because it already has a base of ‘it doesn’t make sense’ 

Now, I have done things, to try it out. Seriously, it’s either part of my spirit and psychic, or it’s required of my belief. I try it, and I consider it to experimentation. And I find out, it’s the wrong key. To sum it up simply, (in your particular language here ;)  ) the key don’t fit. Or, in other cases, the keys does, and so I place it on my spiritual keychain. This is why, I feel I can personally explain how the key is possibly not the right way to describe faith, because it’s not faith I put into that keyhole, it’s the part of me that has a wish fulfillment to actually be acknowledged by me as working within it. Then I see, faith comes later. To me, faith is a result. I guess, I would put it as faith being the keychain, not the key. 

I think you make faith as something that is based in definite, and I see faith as opposite of that. If you’re sure, than you wouldn’t be practicing faith, you’re practicing you’re logic. 

 

Faith comes first. The logic of faith comes later. When it's wholehearted. 

Is wholehearted faith the end result of third degree burns on the bottoms of your feet, when you use faith to walk barefoot over burning coals and expecting that faith to keep your feet safe? 

Because the logic of the situation would be, you'll still get third degree burns on the bottoms of your feet, no matter how much faith you put into it and it expecting your feet to be burn free. I would think, it would be backwards for you. The logic would be, that faith didn't protect you, and the opposite of faith would be what becomes wholehearted. 

So, in other words, I don't see how. 

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Podo
2 hours ago, Coil said:
It didn’t occur to you that people want to know themselves banally, their real Self, and this has nothing to do with the fear of death. Without God there would be no man, therefore they always go together.
I won’t be surprised if on every alien planet there is knowledge of God the Creator or higher mind.
 

Knowing oneself is a matter of introspection or philosophy, and need not be attributed to gods. You choose to make that connection, bereft of any evidence.

Other civilisations will likely have some form of religion, but the way they deal with their insecurities need not have any similarity to how we deal with ours.

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Podo
5 hours ago, Essan said:

And we don't like uncertainty and not knowing why things happen.  Gods provide all the answers.  So we are happy.   Also, we like to feel we are important and that what we do has purpose.  That the gods are looking out for, and even communicate to us (even if via an intermediary) must mean we're special! 

giphy.gif

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Stubbly_Dooright
1 hour ago, Wes83 said:

Is existence and our experiences of that existence not enough to give you reason to be awe inspired in a divine way? 

Yup! How would it? What would indicate that our existence and it's experiences would be evidences of divine dealings?

For the basis of how I see it, growing up secular, I see my existence being the product of two people, who are considered by me, as not divine. I mean, that would be the first clue of natural and not divinely.  What would be the tie in?

Quote

Inseparable from the divinity itself, yet we seldom realize it. 

How so? I can see how we can seldom realize it, because there doesn't seem to be any objective evidence to show it to be true. 

How would you logically link up, with proof, evidence, and such, that our experiences and that in our existence is definitely inseparable from divinity itself? 

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Wes83
48 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Who's to say there is any divinity in our exist or our existence is divine.

That’s part of the point, the fact that you are here to say what is or isn’t divinity, how divine. 

How can we not be in wonder not knowing if there is a purpose of our existence? If there is a meaning at all to anything-minus our simple little minds concoctions.

My reality includes quite everything to be of divine inspiration and origin. I don’t recommend your reality follow the same settings.

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Podo
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

People are prepared to get tortured to death over their belief in a god or gods.

That just means they have priority issues.

 

12 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Does that sound like people not taking responsibility for their actions?

It sounds like people who have such blind faith that they think that dying and suffering is somehow a better option than simply...not. Anyone being tortured or persecuted for their faith could easily stop the persecuting, they choose not to. To not simply decide "hey, I'm going to stop believing the thing that is an active danger to me" is absolute lunacy. A religion is not something that is unchangeable or immutable; religion is a choice, and we all deserve to reap the consequences for our actions. I am in no way condoning religious persecution; while I hate religion I'm a firm believer in freedom of religion. But if you have the misfortune of being persecuted for your beliefs...just change them. They aren't nor should they be as important as your life and safety.

 

12 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Does that sound like fear of dying?

It sounds like fear of god, which is worse. Dying for one's religious beliefs is the same as saying "I will be punished far more if I don't die than if I do"

 

12 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

While, (to paraphrase the famous saying) you can fool some of the people all of the time, clearly there are also people who have had a very profound and personal experience of a pretty uncommon and life changing nature revolving around the focus of what they identify as a deity?  This is what I am interested in.

Just because people have experiences doesn't mean those experiences come from anywhere but their own experiences, thoughts, and expressions. I think the IDEA of a deity can have very measurable effects, but that doesn't mean that the entities are in any sense "real."

Edited by Podo

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Podo
18 hours ago, Habitat said:

The rejection of the God "idea" is largely a matter of ego, people who think that nothing could possibly be  beyond their potential ken, so why hand over ownership to some unknown God. The irony of it all, is that they are right, but not in the way they think, it is not in ego exaltation this expansion can occur, but in ego abasement. 

There's no ego involved in "show me the evidence."

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Wes83
2 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Yup! How would it? What would indicate that our existence and it's experiences would be evidences of divine dealings?

For the basis of how I see it, growing up secular, I see my existence being the product of two people, who are considered by me, as not divine. I mean, that would be the first clue of natural and not divinely.  What would be the tie in?

How so? I can see how we can seldom realize it, because there doesn't seem to be any objective evidence to show it to be true. 

How would you logically link up, with proof, evidence, and such, that our experiences and that in our existence is definitely inseparable from divinity itself? 

Ok, so you have parental issues-fair enough. 

Secular, religious, whatever. It doesn’t matter. Ponder more of existence than the hand you have been dealt. Ponder dualities and opposites. Experience a moment in the moment without thinking its good or bad, try to take in everything you can from your environment for just a moment.

Contemplate the infinity of time, truly try to comprehend 1 billion years. Compare it to the moment you are experiencing. 

Natural, all is natural. Nothing can be unnatural. I think we lose our sense of reason and ability to communicate on some things through language. 

All these billions of years of evolution and “natural” occurrences to lead to this very moment where some overweight, half drunk construction worker has the tiniest of thoughts in his head right now which is “I want a cheeseburger”. 

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Wes83
10 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Yup! How would it? What would indicate that our existence and it's experiences would be evidences of divine dealings?

For the basis of how I see it, growing up secular, I see my existence being the product of two people, who are considered by me, as not divine. I mean, that would be the first clue of natural and not divinely.  What would be the tie in?

How so? I can see how we can seldom realize it, because there doesn't seem to be any objective evidence to show it to be true. 

How would you logically link up, with proof, evidence, and such, that our experiences and that in our existence is definitely inseparable from divinity itself? 

To your second position, that’s totally cool to not see divinity anywhere as that’s not the purpose we were created for, in my opinion.

much like everything that came before us, maybe we are just here to experience. And since we are able to contemplate a notion of God, why not. Sure we have been obviously wrong in the past, and mislead. 

Experience what? Collectively everything. Infinite possibilities and complexities of situations that could ever come to pass. When I see some extremely strange news article it confirms my belief. All manner of dualities and extremities possible will be manifested in infinitely possible variety. 

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Wes83
11 minutes ago, Podo said:

There's no ego involved in "show me the evidence."

There’s plenty, who are you that an infinite being would give 2 craps about proving its existence to??

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Podo
5 minutes ago, Wes83 said:

There’s plenty, who are you that an infinite being would give 2 craps about proving its existence to??

That goes both ways, though. Who is it, that demands action from me without giving me even the slightest reason to think it is real? There is zero evidence of it, the only word I have is the claims of humans, who are mostly unreliable. If it's truly all-powerful, it can do better. If it can't, then it isn't all-powerful and doesn't deserve my attention.

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Stubbly_Dooright
Just now, Wes83 said:
10 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Yup! How would it? What would indicate that our existence and it's experiences would be evidences of divine dealings?

For the basis of how I see it, growing up secular, I see my existence being the product of two people, who are considered by me, as not divine. I mean, that would be the first clue of natural and not divinely.  What would be the tie in?

How so? I can see how we can seldom realize it, because there doesn't seem to be any objective evidence to show it to be true. 

How would you logically link up, with proof, evidence, and such, that our experiences and that in our existence is definitely inseparable from divinity itself? 

Ok, so you have parental issues-fair enough. 

Excuse me?! :huh:  :o  

How do you link not seeing my parents as divine as having parental issues?!?! It's not an insult or regret. It's an honest and natural outlook, when you don't see any evidence of the divine to show it. Growing up secular, no going to anything religious meetings or reading religious books proves it even more to me, the lack of existence of orthodox divinely situations. Yes, it was my parents decision to not raise us religious, but I don't have issues with them on that, in fact, I am grateful to them for it. 

I also see them as my heroes. I see them as wonderful people, (in one case were, :( ) And the evidence of my existence still objectively and logically stills points to them to just getting busy. No evidence that there was any divine situation. 

Quote

Secular, religious, whatever. It doesn’t matter. Ponder more of existence than the hand you have been dealt. Ponder dualities and opposites. Experience a moment in the moment without thinking its good or bad, try to take in everything you can from your environment for just a moment.

Contemplate the infinity of time, truly try to comprehend 1 billion years. Compare it to the moment you are experiencing. 

Natural, all is natural. Nothing can be unnatural. I think we lose our sense of reason and ability to communicate on some things through language. 

All these billions of years of evolution and “natural” occurrences to lead to this very moment where some overweight, half drunk construction worker has the tiniest of thoughts in his head right now which is “I want a cheeseburger”. 

And through all of this part of your post, still doesn't show any evidence that our existence is evidence of the divine. 

Pondering, can be a different subjective situation, so in that thought, it would lead to many different outcomes. As you tell me to ponder it, in the way you're telling to do so, and I still come out as not seeing it being linked to divine interference. Telling someone to ponder it, doesn't show actually proof of your point, since it will come out differently, like it has with me. I still see how you can't be correct with your point. 

And, you have to have some form of understanding of individualism and varying experiences to realize, you can't pinpoint everyone doing or not doing one thing. 

Your last two sentences, (a bit confusing, the way I see it) still doesn't show an objective link to your point. 

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Stubbly_Dooright
10 minutes ago, Wes83 said:
25 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Yup! How would it? What would indicate that our existence and it's experiences would be evidences of divine dealings?

For the basis of how I see it, growing up secular, I see my existence being the product of two people, who are considered by me, as not divine. I mean, that would be the first clue of natural and not divinely.  What would be the tie in?

How so? I can see how we can seldom realize it, because there doesn't seem to be any objective evidence to show it to be true. 

How would you logically link up, with proof, evidence, and such, that our experiences and that in our existence is definitely inseparable from divinity itself? 

To your second position, that’s totally cool to not see divinity anywhere as that’s not the purpose we were created for, in my opinion.

Well, that's your opinion that there is a purpose in what we were created for. My opinion is that there is a big chance we were to come to our existence to natural situations. I can see how I come by my outlook. 

Quote

much like everything that came before us, maybe we are just here to experience. And since we are able to contemplate a notion of God, why not. Sure we have been obviously wrong in the past, and mislead. 

Are you trying to use this as evidence of the divine creating our existence? I wouldn't look at this as such, if that was the case. Using the thought that 'maybe' we're here because of something you think, is not a word to show it's proof that we are. Maybe?! You see, to me, it sounds like you're not too sure. 

And if you think we're being mislead, wouldn't the divine make sure we weren't? 

You see, too much contamination in your in the situations to show that there is no way of knowing for sure if we're divinely created or naturally came to be. 

Quote

Experience what? Collectively everything. Infinite possibilities and complexities of situations that could ever come to pass. When I see some extremely strange news article it confirms my belief. All manner of dualities and extremities possible will be manifested in infinitely possible variety. 

What I see, is you basing the unknowing and the mysteries as proof and using that to say we should believe we were divinely created. How would you know for sure, if you can't show a true possible proof or evidence and instead using mystery and assumptions that they themselves show for sure. Definitely, not in the objective manner, that is. 

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XenoFish
26 minutes ago, Wes83 said:

There’s plenty, who are you that an infinite being would give 2 craps about proving its existence to??

Who are you that a supposed infinite being would even care about? 

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Essan
1 hour ago, Wes83 said:

 

All these billions of years of evolution and “natural” occurrences to lead to this very moment where some overweight, half drunk construction worker has the tiniest of thoughts in his head right now which is “I want a cheeseburger”. 

Indeed,  The sole purpose of the universe is Homer Simpson

Which, to be fair, makes more sense than most real people ....

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XenoFish
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Wes83 said:

My reality includes quite everything to be of divine inspiration and origin. I don’t recommend your reality follow the same settings.

That is your 'reality'. In my reality I accept that I am but one person cast into an unfeeling and unforgiving world. Without purpose or meaning, only to eventually die of old age or something else. I guess it depends on what lie or fantasy you wish to believe in. None of them are true however. 

Edited by XenoFish
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Wes83
3 hours ago, Podo said:

That goes both ways, though. Who is it, that demands action from me without giving me even the slightest reason to think it is real? There is zero evidence of it, the only word I have is the claims of humans, who are mostly unreliable. If it's truly all-powerful, it can do better. If it can't, then it isn't all-powerful and doesn't deserve my attention.

No one I would hope would ask you to believe anything you can’t self verify, nor would I ask anyone to Contemplate my definition of god. Rather contemplate what is known and what is real and determine whatever you like for yourself.

If I’m right, and I’m not saying I am, no experience can be anything less than divine-even you having the option to see it otherwise is divine.

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Wes83
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

That is your 'reality'. In my reality I accept that I am but one person cast into an unfeeling and unforgiving world. Without purpose or meaning, only to eventually die of old age or something else. I guess it depends on what lie or fantasy you wish to believe in. None of them are true however. 

All realities must exist, not even sure you have the option to change it xeno. Only you can know that.

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Wes83
1 hour ago, Essan said:

Indeed,  The sole purpose of the universe is Homer Simpson

Which, to be fair, makes more sense than most real people ....

With time being linear-are we not at the epitome of all that came before us? Sure some thoughts are more publicly favored than others, but did any less time go into allowing it to be manifested?-by natural means I feel-the need to add

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XenoFish
8 minutes ago, Wes83 said:

All realities must exist, not even sure you have the option to change it xeno. Only you can know that.

All subjective experiences of reality exist within a personal framework. Doesn't mean any of them are correct. 

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XenoFish
10 minutes ago, Wes83 said:

With time being linear-are we not at the epitome of all that came before us? Sure some thoughts are more publicly favored than others, but did any less time go into allowing it to be manifested?-by natural means I feel-the need to add

What if time isn't linear? 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_series_and_B_series

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-theory_of_time

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Habitat
3 hours ago, Podo said:

There's no ego involved in "show me the evidence."

There is, when there is a will to have a demonstration rendered according to your dictates.

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, Habitat said:

There is, when there is a will to have a demonstration rendered according to your dictates.

Asking for evidence is no different than asking a question. If you respond that "It's a personal belief" I don't think anyone cares. But you make claims of objective proof, well, we want to see it.

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