Death gives context to life

[markdohle]

I do believe that as more and more professionals come forward and talk about their NDEs that it will become harder to discount them.  In a physicalist, universe these kinds of experiences would be impossible.  However, I do understand that "Confirmation Bias" However, I do understand that "Confirmation Bias" can be an issue with any conversation that deals with seeking the truth, I suffer from it.

Jeffery Long has actually stated that the NDE proves the existence of God and the afterlife.  Here is a site for his book, a good read.  Not sure I agree with him, but I do believe that these experiences have always been with mankind, and that is the reason that belief in God and the afterlife has developed.
 

 

[Dejarma]

the only data we all go by regarding stuff like this is nothing more than stories told to us... IMO it's pointless trying to go further until the data in front of us is more than just a story!

To me, it's just basic common sense = & to this day it still baffles me why a so called Dr would even spend time looking into it

[Scholar4Truth]

7 hours ago, markdohle said:

I do believe that as more and more professionals come forward and talk about their NDEs that it will become harder to discount them.  In a physicalist, universe these kinds of experiences would be impossible.  However, I do understand that "Confirmation Bias" However, I do understand that "Confirmation Bias" can be an issue with any conversation that deals with seeking the truth, I suffer from it.

Jeffery Long has actually stated that the NDE proves the existence of God and the afterlife.  Here is a site for his book, a good read.  Not sure I agree with him, but I do believe that these experiences have always been with mankind, and that is the reason that belief in God and the afterlife has developed.
 

 

Unfortunately those who hold to Naturalism will interpret the data through those lenses , while those who are not strict naturalist or materialist will do so in that ligh from their view. It all comes down to presuppositions,

Edited August 24, 2019 by Scholar4Truth

[XenoFish]

So this is another nde thread? Should we just cut and paste from the other thread over to here? 

Because the same argument will be had.

[Dejarma]

6 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

So this is another nde thread? Should we just cut and paste from the other thread over to here? 

Because the same argument will be had.

when you're dead, you're dead... It's binary. there's no grey area IMO.

I've never heard of someone claiming to have come back from the dead after having their head blown off with a shotgun!

That's being REALLY dead... 

[Jodie.Lynne]

8 hours ago, markdohle said:

Jeffery Long has actually stated that the NDE proves the existence of God and the afterlife. 

So what? Can he PROVE his statement?  Or is it just another belief in wish fulfillment?

 

I could state that there is a housecat sized, living, fire breathing dragon that lives in my house. That doesn't make it true, without evidence, does it?

[Habitat]

Just now, Jodie.Lynne said:

So what? Can he PROVE his statement?  Or is it just another belief in wish fulfillment?

 

I could state that there is a housecat sized, living, fire breathing dragon that lives in my house. That doesn't make it true, without evidence, does it?

There is indeed a dragon living in your house, not so sure about house-cat size.

[markdohle]

Quote

Jodie.Lynne says:  So what? Can he PROVE his statement?  Or is it just another belief in wish fulfillment?

I could state that there is a housecat sized, living, fire breathing dragon that lives in my house. That doesn't make it true, without evidence, does it?

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Indeed, you can say that, and who knows, if someone thinks you trustworthy enough they may believe you ;-).   It could be true, but for me, probably not.  However, a deep question?  How do you house train a dragon?  Even a house size dragon could have a lot going on inside, all of that fire etc.  Or does he just go where he wants to, and you get a plow to gather it up.  Then what do you do with it?  Of course, a nice pile of **** would be proof enough for most.

Jeffery Long has been studying the NDE for many years and has interviewed perhaps thousands who have experienced them.  He has found that unlike a hallucination, the long term effects on people are permanent.  The majority of atheists (not all by any means) drop their atheism when they have an NDE.  They experienced the impossible.   They had a full-blown NDE even when there was no blood being pumped into the brain.  Their experiences were not confused, in fact, they were very pointed in their content. 

Then there are the NDE's of children, which are very interesting, as well as convincing to many who study them.
Here is a short clip on his book “God and the After Life”

Based on the largest near-death experience study in history, involving 3,000 people from diverse backgrounds and religious traditions, including nonbelievers, God and the Afterlife presents startling evidence that a Supreme Being exists—and there is amazing consistency about what he is like.

In his bestselling book Evidence of the Afterlife, Dr. Jefferey Long showed us that there is a strong scientific case for life after death. Now, he goes further, revealing evidence that God is real. At the Near-Death Experience Research Foundation, Dr. Long studied the stories of thousands of people who have journeyed to the afterlife. Though there are a wide variety of differences in how people experience NDEs—some see a bright light, others go through a tunnel, still, others experience a review of their life—he discovered that many of the accounts shared a remarkably similar description of God; a Supreme Being who radiated love and grace.

Expanding on his analysis begun in Evidence of the Afterlife, God and the Afterlife is the first intensive exploration of the people who have reported going to the frontier of heaven, met God, and have returned to share their journey. Groundbreaking and profound, it provides new insight into the human experience and expands our notions of mortality, offering possibility, hope, and comfort.

Apart from having an NDE, I doubt the above (the book) will convince anyone who has strong beliefs that differ from the authors.  It is like the arguments presented to ‘prove’ the existence of God.  They are not proofs in a scientific way, but they do give reasons for believers to see that they do have good cause to believe in God, and like Jeffery Long’s book, to also hope, believe, that there is an afterlife.

I do not think that belief in an afterlife is based on wishful thinking for most people.  It is something that they may take for granted.   I do not.  Even though I am a man of faith, and seek to live it, I know I could be wrong.  We could all be wrong LOL.  Not in the sense of ‘less’, but that there may be much more.  The deeper I go into my own faith, the deeper the mystery becomes for me, and the less I actually believe I know.  It does not water down my faith, but makes me appreciate the journey we are all on.

Many will disagree with me, but can any belief, or any statement be made without many, or most not agreeing?

Thanks for your comment my friend
 

Peace
Mark

.  

Edited August 24, 2019 by markdohle

[eight bits]

One nice thing about this video is that it focuses on the meaning of the experience, rather than its reliability as an information source. Dr Neal has felt-certainty that what she thought happened really did happen. Apparently she realizes and accepts that her felt-certainty is no argument at all for us groundlings who piece out our knowledge of the world by weighing evidence and arguments. There's no arguing with a cosmic download.

With reliability put aside as a discussable issue, I still have an objection to NDE-ism. IMO, It is unwarranted to separate out what the severely ill or injured remember afterwards from healthier people's otherwise similar interior mental states. Let's not be coy here. The terminology "near-death experience" is insisted upon because of its suggestion that being "near" death somehow better positions the sufferer to see "beyond" death, compared with healthier people who have similar experiences. That is argument by word-play, and it's illegitimate.

Obviously, there is no evidence that being severely ill or injured improves any aspect of cognitive functioning. No amount of evidence about how many severely ill or injured people recall having epiphanies overcomes the observation that other people do, too, and that the content and "potential personal impact" of these epiphanies is hardly different for the wounded and for the whole.

Nor is it unusual that epiphany be followed by enantiodromia (a sudden-onset but durable 180-degree change in peronality and fundamental attitudes and behavior; St Paul being the canonical example). This is what Jeffrey Long refers to in your remark about him:

On 8/24/2019 at 5:33 AM, markdohle said:

He has found that unlike a hallucination, the long term effects on people are permanent. 

Why yes, Doctor. Not all hallucinations are epiphanies, and not all epiphanies elicit enantiodromia.

There is, however, a case to make that crisis is conducive to epiphany with enantiodromia. Severe illness or injury isn't the only kind of crisis. Go to a few AA meetings, or just read through descriptions of them - they're all over the web. AA jargon for epiphany-with-enanatiodromia crises is "hitting rock bottom." Depending on the individual, rock bottom may be a health problem that cuts through the denial and awakens a clear appreciation of the addict's predicament, but as you sit through the meeting, you'll hear about all kinds of problems: social, family life, employment, criminality, professional performance, ... you name it.

The rock-bottom crisis may or may not include hallucination. That's useful, I think, since it tells us that we're discussing distinct but related psychological phenomena: crisis awareness, unwarranted felt-certainty, epiphany, enantiodromia, and hallucination. They are separate phenomena that can be experienced separately from one another or in concert, either way.

When they do occur together, and the nature of the crisis is suitably suggestive, then the attention of seekers after the supernatural is engaged. AA meetings, despite a pronounced "spiritual" dimension in their ideology and practice, not so much. Just plain psychological phenomena, whether therapeutic or just part of life, even less so.

But they are the same phenomena. At least as far as a groundling like me can puzzle out.

I am glad that Dr Neal got her life together; too bad she had to break some bones and explore the mammalian diving reflex to accomplish it. Maybe it's also too bad that the image-vocabulary of her big dream (a searchable term especially with the disambiguator jung) was so conventional in her native culture, and it's definitely disappointing that she doesn't attend more to that amazing coincidence.

 

Edited August 25, 2019 by eight bits

[XenoFish]

Dead is dead and nde's are just the effects of the light fading out. Apparent profound for some, wasn't for me.

[switchopens]

I don't even know what she's saying. 
She had a subjective experience, and we should all believe that there's some kind of afterlife because she can't explain it away?

Although she was clinically dead, she was not neurologically dead, and we already know that cooler conditions keep the brain intact for longer periods of time.

Also, the problem with hallucinations is that one cannot differentiate the experience with real life, especially when all function are involved.

For someone who wants to find truth, she abandon reason as soon as she dropped all of her better reasoning for a feeling.
As far as I'm concerned, and professional who does this is not worthy of claiming some kind of truth in regards to this matter using their title.

[markdohle]

Thanks Eight Bits.  When I see something that causes me fear, I will react.  It is chemical-based, everything in the brain is.  Yet our experiences are real.  It is the part of the NDE where people say that they leave their bodies, travel somewhere else.  It could be out to the waiting room, or to their home.   they receive information or observe what is going on, and when they relate it when they come back, it happened as they saw it.   These events (which are told to be impossible) happen on a regular basis.  They are telling us something about our consciousness.   There are NDEs that happen to a group.  Below is the page:

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/group/firefighters-nde.html

Here is a page that has other group NDEs.  Here is an excerpt about the firefighters.. 

https://www.near-death.com/experiences/group.html


Here is a page that has other group NDEs.  Here are some excerpts about the firefighter's experience:

The panic stricken crews started to try and go back up the trench trail they had built. Trees exploded and fire engulfed the immediate area, and oxygen feeding the conflagration was sucked from near the ground where the people struggled to breathe. One by one the men and women fell to the Earth suffocating from lack of oxygen. They were reduced to crawling on their hands and knees while they attempted to get back up the hill to a safer area.

Suddenly John had the thought: "This is it. I am going to die." And with that thought in mind he found himself looking down on his body which was lying in a trench. The noise, heat and confusion from the inferno surrounding them was gone and John felt completely at peace. As he looked around, John saw other fire-fighters standing above their bodies in the air. One of John's crew members had a defective foot which he had been born with. As he came out of his body John looked at him and said: "Look, Jose, your foot is straight."

A bright light then appeared. John described the bright light in this manner: "The light -- the fantastic light! It was brighter than the brightest light I had ever seen on earth. It was brighter than the sun shining on a field of snow. Yet I could look at it, and it didn't hurt my eyes."


John said that in comparing reports of their different episodes the men and women were astonished that they had each undergone some type of near-death experience. And this happened to a diverse ethnic and religious group of Hispanics, Caucasians and American Indians. Throughout the summer as the crew worked together they continued to discuss the miraculous adventure which they had lived through. Others of the crew confirmed, for example, that they also felt the ill effects of returning to their physical bodies. They, too, had met with other members of their deceased families and were given the choice of remaining where they were or of returning to earth.

 
 What to make of the above?  Even I am not sure, but it happened.  What are these experiences trying to tell us? 

Raymond has a book out called "Glimpses of Eternity" which deals with this phenomena.  It seems to be more common than we suppose.  Again, in the past, from the very beginning Mankind has had these experiences.  They do point I believe to something more than a universe that void of any trancedent reality.

https://www.amazon.com/Glimpses-Eternity-Sharing-Loved-Passage/dp/0692655573/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=77996626285349&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvqmt=e&keywords=glimpses+of+eternity&qid=1566729557&s=gateway&sr=8-1

Peace
Mark
 

 

Edited August 25, 2019 by markdohle

[markdohle]

I don't even know what she's saying. 
She had a subjective experience, and we should all believe that there's some kind of afterlife because she can't explain it away?

Although she was clinically dead, she was not neurologically dead, and we already know that cooler conditions keep the brain intact for longer periods of time.

Also, the problem with hallucinations is that one cannot differentiate the experience with real life, especially when all function are involved.

For someone who wants to find truth, she abandon reason as soon as she dropped all of her better reasoning for a feeling.
As far as I'm concerned, and professional who does this is not worthy of claiming some kind of truth in regards to this matter using their title

First of all, thank you for your comment. 

What is she saying?  Her experience certainly gave her a different context about death, which is not based on wishful thinking, but on as eight bits said "A cosmic download".   I think she did well in talking about how her context on death has changed.  Also, how do you know that she is going just on 'feeling', whatever that means?  
Just because what she says goes against what you believe, assume, is not enough to discount her talk.  Though, of course, you can, but I think you are jumping too quickly.

Logic can be used by anyone to present what they believe, and why.  For instance, a good debater can take both sides of an argument and win using logic/rational thinking.  So to say she has become illogical is not true.    For her to deny her experience, which for is real, would be illogical. 

Of course, her experience is subjective, all of our experiences are.  We all interpret reality based on our own experiences, as well, most importantly, our beliefs.  What makes it difficult is that for the most part, we suffer in one degree or another from “confirmation bias”.   So it is easy for me to perhaps ‘get her’, because I already believe in an afterlife, or I assume it.  If someone assumes that the universe has no spiritual dimension, but only physical, that assumption can lead to outright rejection of the experience of another. 

Peace
Mark 

[XenoFish]

It doesn't take much for some people to believe in fairy tales.

[+and-then]

On 8/24/2019 at 4:33 AM, markdohle said:

Many will disagree with me, but can any belief, or any statement be made without many, or most not agreeing?

For my part, Mark, I appreciate the posts and links.  I am curious about this phenomena and for the most part it is uplifting to me.  I have a bit of trouble understanding the negativity here by several on this topic.  It isn't important enough to try to change their minds but it is fascinating, in a sad kind of way, how absolutely committed some are to quashing or being dismissive of NDEs before all of their mysteries are examined. 

To a man they will stand up for science and its strict methodologies yet they casually reject discussion of a phenomenon no one yet truly understands.  All I know is that nearly every person who has one of these is fundamentally changed on some level in their view of what we are and where we are going.  To me, if a thing gives hope and comfort in this cold, angry world, it is not to be dismissed and mocked.  

[Will Due]

 

For mortal human beings, the whole of life itself is a near death experience.

 

 

[markdohle]

and then said:  For my part, Mark, I appreciate the posts and links.  I am curious about this phenomena and for the most part it is uplifting to me.  I have a bit of trouble understanding the negativity here by several on this topic.  It isn't important enough to try to change their minds but it is fascinating, in a sad kind of way, how absolutely committed some are to quashing or being dismissive of NDEs before all of their mysteries are examined. 

To a man they will stand up for science and its strict methodologies yet they casually reject discussion of a phenomenon no one yet truly understands.  All I know is that nearly every person who has one of these is fundamentally changed on some level in their view of what we are and where we are going.  To me, if a thing gives hope and comfort in this cold, angry world, it is not to be dismissed and mocked.  

Thank you.  There is much to this phenomenon that surely needs deep study.  The study is, of course, growing becasue the so-called explanations have been proven false.  One member here is just very hurt, and I believe simply afraid to 'hope'.  I like him, but I do not think he is an atheist.   So he will be very vocal, much more so than those who are most likely atheists, or agnostics.  

I am glad that they can be studied now.  Like like said in one of my responses, I believe these experiences have always been around, and in the past were considered normal.  Modern man in the West has lost touch with a great deal.

 

Peace
Mark

[Ogbin]

On 8/23/2019 at 5:40 PM, Dejarma said:

when you're dead, you're dead... It's binary. there's no grey area IMO.

I've never heard of someone claiming to have come back from the dead after having their head blown off with a shotgun!

That's being REALLY dead... 

Is your body who you are, or is your body a vessel for who you are? 

[Ogbin]

On 8/23/2019 at 6:49 PM, Jodie.Lynne said:

I could state that there is a housecat sized, living, fire breathing dragon that lives in my house. That doesn't make it true, without evidence, does it?

Schrodinger's cat?

[Scholar4Truth]

On 8/25/2019 at 1:40 PM, and then said:

For my part, Mark, I appreciate the posts and links.  I am curious about this phenomena and for the most part it is uplifting to me.  I have a bit of trouble understanding the negativity here by several on this topic.  It isn't important enough to try to change their minds but it is fascinating, in a sad kind of way, how absolutely committed some are to quashing or being dismissive of NDEs before all of their mysteries are examined. 

To a man they will stand up for science and its strict methodologies yet they casually reject discussion of a phenomenon no one yet truly understands.  All I know is that nearly every person who has one of these is fundamentally changed on some level in their view of what we are and where we are going.  To me, if a thing gives hope and comfort in this cold, angry world, it is not to be dismissed and mocked.  

It seems this is due to the presupposition of a Reductionist Materialist Worldview. When one looks at evidence from a certain viewpoint, they interpret it in that light. In addition, science is not as objective as some claim, it often changes. I think another thing as well is that there is a difference between Science and the radical view of Scientism. 

[Ogbin]

On 8/25/2019 at 11:40 AM, and then said:

I have a bit of trouble understanding the negativity here by several on this topic. 

Without hope what is there?

On 8/25/2019 at 11:40 AM, and then said:

It isn't important enough to try to change their minds but it is fascinating, in a sad kind of way, how absolutely committed some are to quashing or being dismissive of NDEs before all of their mysteries are examined. 

It is fascinating for me too. There are those who find it easier to believe, or have comfort in believing that life is a fluke. Why is life if it is nothing more than a meaningless existence? We can't change minds, but we can challenge their thinking.

On 8/25/2019 at 11:40 AM, and then said:

All I know is that nearly every person who has one of these is fundamentally changed on some level in their view of what we are and where we are going.

Maybe it is because they have experienced something that this material universe could not stop from happening. And that is the separation of their eternal consciousness from this temporary vessel called the body.

On 8/25/2019 at 11:40 AM, and then said:

To me, if a thing gives hope and comfort in this cold, angry world, it is not to be dismissed and mocked.  

I put my hope in Truth. Because in Truth there is no deception. The great cosmic battle is, in my opinion,  "Truth vs. Deception". And contrary to popular belief Ignorance is not bliss.

Edited August 26, 2019 by Ogbin

[Jodie.Lynne]

1 hour ago, Ogbin said:

Schrodinger's cat?

Schrodinger's dragon. A lesser known, failed experiment. The dragon kept burning through the box...

[+Pettytalk]

On 8/23/2019 at 6:51 PM, Habitat said:

There is indeed a dragon living in your house, not so sure about house-cat size.

And where there are dragons, a dungeon must also be close by.

[+Pettytalk]

On 8/23/2019 at 5:40 PM, Dejarma said:

when you're dead, you're dead... It's binary. there's no grey area IMO.

I've never heard of someone claiming to have come back from the dead after having their head blown off with a shotgun!

That's being REALLY dead... 

There is really no need to paint such a gruesome and bloody picture of the dead. And it all depends on the gauge and if it was a sawed off shotgun, and the distance of the head from the end of the barrel(s). A simple massive heart attack occurring at a location not nearer than 20 minutes away from any medical facilities would have sufficed for the dead.

It seems that you are implying there are different degrees of dead. But seriously, I know what you mean. There definitely can be doubts about someone being just clinically dead for a short time, from someone who is surely physically dead because the head is no longer on the shoulders.

But, again, we also have this.

[+Pettytalk]

On 8/25/2019 at 1:51 PM, markdohle said:

and then said:  For my part, Mark, I appreciate the posts and links.  I am curious about this phenomena and for the most part it is uplifting to me.  I have a bit of trouble understanding the negativity here by several on this topic.  It isn't important enough to try to change their minds but it is fascinating, in a sad kind of way, how absolutely committed some are to quashing or being dismissive of NDEs before all of their mysteries are examined. 

To a man they will stand up for science and its strict methodologies yet they casually reject discussion of a phenomenon no one yet truly understands.  All I know is that nearly every person who has one of these is fundamentally changed on some level in their view of what we are and where we are going.  To me, if a thing gives hope and comfort in this cold, angry world, it is not to be dismissed and mocked.  

Thank you.  There is much to this phenomenon that surely needs deep study.  The study is, of course, growing becasue the so-called explanations have been proven false.  One member here is just very hurt, and I believe simply afraid to 'hope'.  I like him, but I do not think he is an atheist.   So he will be very vocal, much more so than those who are most likely atheists, or agnostics.  

I am glad that they can be studied now.  Like like said in one of my responses, I believe these experiences have always been around, and in the past were considered normal.  Modern man in the West has lost touch with a great deal.

 

Peace
Mark

I myself had never had a so called NDE, but I'm certain that I have had an OBE while never being any closer to death than this very minute. I'm convinced, even if considered foolishly so, that there is an afterlife, just as much as there is an before life. And I'm definitely convinced that there is this omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent Being that many refer to as God.

But let me ask you a couple of questions between believers.

If these NDEs are indeed real opportunities for catching a glimpse of a real afterlife, why is there such little proof given only to a handful, and no proof at all given to nearly the entire population?

And if the afterlife is a reality, it cannot be a physical place as is this one. Then what is the purpose of this physical universe, and why are we here?