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markdohle

Death gives context to life

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Sherapy
Posted (edited)
On 8/25/2019 at 2:31 AM, eight bits said:

One nice thing about this video is that it focuses on the meaning of the experience, rather than its reliability as an information source. Dr Neal has felt-certainty that what she thought happened really did happen. Apparently she realizes and accepts that her felt-certainty is no argument at all for us groundlings who piece out our knowledge of the world by weighing evidence and arguments. There's no arguing with a cosmic download.

With reliability put aside as a discussable issue, I still have an objection to NDE-ism. IMO, It is unwarranted to separate out what the severely ill or injured remember afterwards from healthier people's otherwise similar interior mental states. Let's not be coy here. The terminology "near-death experience" is insisted upon because of its suggestion that being "near" death somehow better positions the sufferer to see "beyond" death, compared with healthier people who have similar experiences. That is argument by word-play, and it's illegitimate.

Obviously, there is no evidence that being severely ill or injured improves any aspect of cognitive functioning. No amount of evidence about how many severely ill or injured people recall having epiphanies overcomes the observation that other people do, too, and that the content and "potential personal impact" of these epiphanies is hardly different for the wounded and for the whole.

Nor is it unusual that epiphany be followed by enantiodromia (a sudden-onset but durable 180-degree change in peronality and fundamental attitudes and behavior; St Paul being the canonical example). This is what Jeffrey Long refers to in your remark about him:

Why yes, Doctor. Not all hallucinations are epiphanies, and not all epiphanies elicit enantiodromia.

There is, however, a case to make that crisis is conducive to epiphany with enantiodromia. Severe illness or injury isn't the only kind of crisis. Go to a few AA meetings, or just read through descriptions of them - they're all over the web. AA jargon for epiphany-with-enanatiodromia crises is "hitting rock bottom." Depending on the individual, rock bottom may be a health problem that cuts through the denial and awakens a clear appreciation of the addict's predicament, but as you sit through the meeting, you'll hear about all kinds of problems: social, family life, employment, criminality, professional performance, ... you name it.

The rock-bottom crisis may or may not include hallucination. That's useful, I think, since it tells us that we're discussing distinct but related psychological phenomena: crisis awareness, unwarranted felt-certainty, epiphany, enantiodromia, and hallucination. They are separate phenomena that can be experienced separately from one another or in concert, either way.

When they do occur together, and the nature of the crisis is suitably suggestive, then the attention of seekers after the supernatural is engaged. AA meetings, despite a pronounced "spiritual" dimension in their ideology and practice, not so much. Just plain psychological phenomena, whether therapeutic or just part of life, even less so.

But they are the same phenomena. At least as far as a groundling like me can puzzle out.

I am glad that Dr Neal got her life together; too bad she had to break some bones and explore the mammalian diving reflex to accomplish it. Maybe it's also too bad that the image-vocabulary of her big dream (a searchable term especially with the disambiguator jung) was so conventional in her native culture, and it's definitely disappointing that she doesn't attend more to that amazing coincidence.

 

Excellent post, loved the comparison to AA, very good pull. It  advanced and added to the topic in an engaging way. It has made me think deeper about epiphanies. 

Edited by Sherapy
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Jodie.Lynne
On 8/23/2019 at 9:51 PM, Habitat said:

There is indeed a dragon living in your house, not so sure about house-cat size.

Darling, if I were a dragon, I wouldn't even waste my breath on you. I'd just swat you with my tail.

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Jodie.Lynne
11 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

And where there are dragons, a dungeon must also be close by.

I'm not sure you would survive my dungeon...

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jmccr8
On 8/27/2019 at 3:22 PM, Jodie.Lynne said:

I'm not sure you would survive my dungeon...

Jodie

Are you playing with your food again?:lol:

jmc r8

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brian100

In ww2 they coined the phrase "there are no atheists in fox holes." They all start screaming please god I don;t want to die.  Must be a knee jerk reaction.

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Rlyeh
33 minutes ago, brian100 said:

In ww2 they coined the phrase "there are no atheists in fox holes." They all start screaming please god I don;t want to die.  Must be a knee jerk reaction.

So God is the result of the irrational mind.

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brian100
57 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

So God is the result of the irrational mind.

Whats irrational.. when an atheist can't even stick to his guns. I believe that's checkmate.

Edited by brian100
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Rlyeh
1 hour ago, brian100 said:

Whats irrational.. when an atheist can't even stick to his guns. I believe that's checkmate.

Thinking an invisible friend is going to come along and save you is irrational, sunshine.

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XenoFish
3 hours ago, brian100 said:

In ww2 they coined the phrase "there are no atheists in fox holes." They all start screaming please god I don;t want to die.  Must be a knee jerk reaction.

My grandfather became an atheist after having fought in WW2. 

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Desertrat56
On 8/23/2019 at 6:26 PM, XenoFish said:

So this is another nde thread? Should we just cut and paste from the other thread over to here? 

Because the same argument will be had.

The title

Quote

Death gives context to life

leads me to believe that  the OP wants to discuss something different, though I don't see that really happening, it has just turned in to another NDE thread.

I want to address the title of the thread.  How does death (or in this case NDE as proof of life after death) give context to life? Life and your experiences in that life give an individual context for their experiences, death does not give context to life no matter what you believe.   I don't see that discussed  in this thread at all.  I see Mark D. claiming that “Jeffery Long has actually stated that the NDE proves the existence of God and the afterlife.” in a manner that implies he thinks that is correct. It isn't, that is confirmation bias at it's most basic. You found someone who agrees with what you believe, doesn't make it so.

Without the discussion of NDE's as "proof" of life after death how does death give context to the individual who has left their body permanently for what ever reason?  It could give some context to some aspect of life for the people related/involved with the person who died.  So, @markdohle, without your videos and your belief that NDS' prove your god, explain the title of this thread.

 

Edited by Desertrat56

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D.O'N
7 hours ago, brian100 said:

In ww2 they coined the phrase "there are no atheists in fox holes." They all start screaming please god I don;t want to die.  Must be a knee jerk reaction.

It pretty much is a knee jerk reaction. You in so much fear your brain does weird stuff. Its like you not thinking rationally due to be scared or something...

Edited by Baldylocks

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Desertrat56
8 minutes ago, Baldylocks said:

It pretty much is a knee jerk reaction. You in so much fear your brain does weird stuff. Its like you not thinking rationally due to be scared or something...

Does that mean that you think believing in a god is rational?

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D.O'N
Just now, Desertrat56 said:

Does that mean that you think believing in a god is rational?

No, even though i dont believe in God. Im just saying i dont think its weird for an atheist to be saying such thing. Brian is trying to downplay Atheists for doing such thing, i dont see it being weird that during one of the scariest times in a persons life that someone is shouting out for help. They could shout out for Thor and i would still see it as understandable.

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Desertrat56
3 minutes ago, Baldylocks said:

No, even though i dont believe in God. Im just saying i dont think its weird for an atheist to be saying such thing. Brian is trying to downplay Atheists for doing such thing, i dont see it being weird that during one of the scariest times in a persons life that someone is shouting out for help. They could shout out for Thor and i would still see it as understandable.

I see, I was thinking about people who are religious deciding that god doesn't exist after their experiences during WW2 so I missed your actual point.  I think you are right, it is something almost everyone would do.  And that calling for a deity and not getting a tangible answer would cause disillusionment. 

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D.O'N
1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

I see, I was thinking about people who are religious deciding that god doesn't exist after their experiences during WW2 so I missed your actual point.  I think you are right, it is something almost everyone would do.  And that calling for a deity and not getting a tangible answer would cause disillusionment. 

I would do it, id be in so much fear for my life id be hoping for anything. But i would know deep down it is pointless, but fear is like that. I have really bad anxiety, makes me think all sorts, i know deep down its silly but yet there i am worrying about this or that. And thats just me in my room for an example. Now being in a world war with bombs heading my way? with no escape? you bet id being shouting for every God possible.

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Desertrat56
19 minutes ago, Baldylocks said:

I would do it, id be in so much fear for my life id be hoping for anything. But i would know deep down it is pointless, but fear is like that. I have really bad anxiety, makes me think all sorts, i know deep down its silly but yet there i am worrying about this or that. And thats just me in my room for an example. Now being in a world war with bombs heading my way? with no escape? you bet id being shouting for every God possible.

Yeah, I could see that.  Being in a situation where a bomb could drop or someone could jump out from a tree and shoot you would be an intolerable fear for me.  I have been in situations where I thought I might die but it involved an individual and I did not call out energetically or otherwise for a deity, instead I weighed my options and made a decision based on how I could be sure the person was caught, or stopped whether I survived it or not.  Maybe death isn't one of my fears when I think I have a fighting chance or that my death can make a difference for someone.

 

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D.O'N
7 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Yeah, I could see that.  Being in a situation where a bomb could drop or someone could jump out from a tree and shoot you would be an intolerable fear for me.  I have been in situations where I thought I might die but it involved an individual and I did not call out energetically or otherwise for a deity, instead I weighed my options and made a decision based on how I could be sure the person was caught, or stopped whether I survived it or not.  Maybe death isn't one of my fears when I think I have a fighting chance or that my death can make a difference for someone.

 

If you have a fighting chance as you say then i see that differently, id would probably be like you, think more rationally. Im on about the no hope moments, knowing there is no escape. Who knows how i will be. Maybe i will just faint lol.

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brian100

Yeah its very easy to change to atheist after seeing WW2 or any war.  Its perfectly normal for anyone faced with death to run and scream, or worse... beg God to save them once they have made a choice God is fake.

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Jodie.Lynne

Regarding the title "Death gives context to life", I agree.

To the best of our current knowledge, life has a beginning (where, exactly, is a matter of debate), and has a definitive end. And it is because of that endpoint that we should try to live our lives in the best possible manner that benefits ourselves and others.

 

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brian100

The trippy thing to life is it has an end. You can rest assured your preview on life is only for a few moments, and we're lucky we live longer than cats and dogs!

Therefore this equation: Life=the start of death.

Edited by brian100
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