greek fire

[silence!]

does any1 know what greek fire is or how it was made or at least theorys?

[BurnSide]

Ah, one of my more recent studies.

It was very similar to our modern day napalm. Basically, it would stick to surfaces, ignite upon impact, and be unextingishable by water.

I find it strange that in an age of warfare, the making of such a tool would dissapear to the sands of time. I think that we do not have the knowledge of how it was invented or what indeed it's ctual mixture was, but i may be mistaken.

It's more usual name is liquid fire, and it was invented, i believe, in the 600's. Used for ship warfare mostly, the mixture of liquid would be poored through a tube onto an enemy ship, immediately setting alight upon touching the deck of the ship.

[BurnSide]

It was used rarely, for fear that the mixture would fall into enemy hands.

[silence!]

yea i saw timeline so i knew some of that...

[Athenian]

yea i saw timeline so i knew some of that...

473732[/snapback]

So why did you bother to ask...?

[BurnSide]

Well he was inquiring into if anyone knew how it was made. But to this date we have been unable to duplicate the weapon.

[TooFarGone]

Christ, they did a great job of hiding the secret.

[Adramaleck]

My guess would be that it would be oil and .... crap, i forgot the metal that it is. I'm thinking magnese, but I'm almost positive that's wrong. Anyway, there's a metal that is extremely sensitive to water, and when it touches water, it combusts. So much so that leaving it out in humidity would cause combustion. It's transmitted in oil. If this metal was ground into a fine powder and mixed in an oil that would make it transferable, as well as usuable. As was earlier said, it was mostly used at sea. Probably shot off the ship, coating the side, and when it ran down the side of the ship it hit the water, and woosh, up goes the ship in flames.

I'm not sure that's what it is, but it seems more than likley to me.

[BurnSide]

You're absolutely right Adramaleck, i remember back in high school science my teacher showed me that exact same thing in a private lesson. I too forget the exact name, but it was so weak you could actually cut it with a knife like butter. My teacher cut a slab off, and dropped it into a large petri dish with a layer of water at the bottom. Apparently the metal reacts explosively to the Hydrogen in water, and combusts in quite a marvelous display of pops and fizzing and whistling.

[LordBailey]

You're absolutely right Adramaleck, i remember back in high school science my teacher showed me that exact same thing in a private lesson. I too forget the exact name, but it was so weak you could actually cut it with a knife like butter. My teacher cut a slab off, and dropped it into a large petri dish with a layer of water at the bottom. Apparently the metal reacts explosively to the Hydrogen in water, and combusts in quite a marvelous display of pops and fizzing and whistling.

474411[/snapback]

I second that note. I too had the same experiment in chemistry class. Cool stuff it was. The teacher actually got in trouble for doing it though. Apparently teachers aren't supposed to show students how to set things on fire unsing chemistry...go figure...

[BurnSide]

Hence the private lesson.

[aquatus1]

I believe you are both talking about Sodium (NA). In pure form, it is so reactive that the moisture from your hand will cause it to smolder (wear gloves), yet it is so soft that you can cut it with a knife (and briefly see the shiny metal surface, before it reacts with the moisture in the air and rusts). It is generally transported in kerosene, so yes, a oil based emulsion could conceivably hold it in suspension (Not animal oil, though. It would have to be petroleum based). If it contacts water, it will combust rapidly, to the point of explosiveness.

Congrats, I think you may have solved the mystery of the ages!

[BurnSide]

Sodium, that's the stuff!

Out of curiosity, what is used in todays Napalm?

[LordBailey]

Sodium, that's the stuff!

Out of curiosity, what is used in todays Napalm?

474528[/snapback]

Patroleum Jelly and Kerosene I think

Not really sure though

[Adramaleck]

There are many recipes for napalm - its really just a molotov cocktail on steroids. Motor-oil and gasoline are the most commonly used items in molotov cocktails, but I'm not exactly sure what the government, in their infinate wisdom (heh heh) use in napalm.

[aquatus1]

The only napalm bomb currently in use by the American military is the MK-77 napalm canister munition (750lb). The containers of napalm bomber are made of aluminum, and look more like a large keg than a missile or bomb. This shape is intentional, as it causes the canister to tumble in flight, which scatters the combustible gel over a wide area. Napalm is a mixture of benzene (21%), gasoline (33%), and polystyrene (46%). Benzene is a normal component of gasoline (about 2%). The gasoline used in napalm is the same leaded or unleaded gas that is used in automobiles. The polystyrene is the same styrofoam you can get from Hobby Lobby. The benzene...you get the idea.

There are charges of the U.S. Army using Napalm in Fallujah, mostly by anti-war protestors who claim it is a violation of the Geneva Convention. One can find, however, that the 1980 Protocol III of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons which deals specifically with the Use of Incendiary Weapons, and their use against civilians, does not apply to the USA, as we were not a party to this Protocol.

[Dando Kast]

I just wonder why the US is allowed to stay out of all these protocols?..... the US gov needs to realize that the world is more important then just there part of it..... pollution goes everywhere!!!!

Edited February 4, 2005 by Black Ops

[aquatus1]

I just wonder why the US is allowed to stay out all these protocols?..... the US gov needs to realize that the world is more important then just there part of it.....

475036[/snapback]

No country is required to be a part of everything. The UN is pretty much voluntary, and relies on support from its members. Makes you wonder how effective it is in a crunch.

The U.S. elected to stay out of these protocols for the simple reason that the technology we were developing is much less damaging and precise than the fairly wanton destruction caused by the Vietnam-era phosperous and napalm bombs. We do, in fact, have our own protocols concerning their use, and phosporus in never allowed as an anti-personnel munition. Napalm is used in shock situations, and only when a direct hit can be reasonably assured. The blast is hot enough that the victims actually suffer less than a gunshot victim.

[BurnSide]

Thanks for the information bud, that's really informative stuff.

[Dando Kast]

The U.S. elected to stay out of these protocols for the simple reason that the technology we were developing is much less damaging and precise than the fairly wanton destruction caused by the Vietnam-era phosperous and napalm bombs. We do, in fact, have our own protocols concerning their use, and phosporus in never allowed as an anti-personnel munition. Napalm is used in shock situations, and only when a direct hit can be reasonably assured. The blast is hot enough that the victims actually suffer less than a gunshot victim.

and why not join the Kyoto Protocol like everyone else did.... it's only about cutting pollution?.... and the US targeting systems are less then trustworthy......

Edited February 4, 2005 by Black Ops

[aquatus1]

and why not join the Kyoto Protocol like everyone else did.... it's only about cutting pollution?.... and the US targeting systems are less then trustworthy......

We didn't join the Kyoto protocols for the same reason we avoided the munition protocols. They are trying to correct a problem from 50 years ago. They aren't enough to deal with what we have now, and would only impeded the progress towards better solutions.

And I had very few complaints from any of our pilots concerning the targeting systems.

[aquatus1]

The complaints seem to come from civilians who were targetted incorrectly....

475080[/snapback]

*shrugs*

That's why we have failsafes. Those civilians weren't targeted. As soon as the missile went off-course, the warhead deactivated, which is why the civilians still lived to complain. In the first three months of the war, my squadron sent eighteen missiles without a single error, and the entire carrier had only one electronic failure, at which time the launch was aborted. During the whole war (prior to the end of major action), over 15,000 smart bombs were dropped, and only seven went off-course. Five of them, deactivated, the other two self-destructed in flight.

For the first time in recorded history, weapons are being designed not for wanton and indescriminate destruction, but rather to minimize death and avoid collateral damage. Wars are being planned based on the safety of civilians. There will never be any such thing as a safe war, but we have come a long ways from the early sack and rape that started it all. From the earliest Greek fire, which ensured a slow and painful death to your enemy and anyone else he came into contact with (including yourself), to a precisely dropped, highly efficient napalm munition so concentrated that it will instantly overload the human sensory system and cause a painless death. It isn't pretty, but it is far preferable.

But I digress. My apologies.

[silence!]

very informative

by the way digress all u want on my posts lol

[Elfstone810]

I have a memoir written by a WWII pilot who recounts an odd incident with the napalm of his day and age.

It was winter in England, thoroughly damp and dismal and bitterly cold. He and his buddy had a coal stove in their quarters but they could never get it to light properly. Finally a friend of his in the munitions department gave him a can of napalm and they poured some in the stove, only they had no idea how much to use and they put a tad bit too much and also spilled some. When they put a match to it flames shot out of the stove and the bit they'd spilled on the concrete floor caught. Fire started snaking across the floor and for several minutes it looked like they were going to wind up explaining to their commanding officer how they happened to burn the camp down.

Finally, though, they managed to smother the flames on the floor and get the stove door closed. From then on they were careful to only use a tiny bit of napalm to light the stove, but they did keep using it and stayed warm all winter.

Seems awfully extreme, using napalm, but given the fights I've had with my wood stove on freezing nights when it just didn't want to catch, I can see where they were coming from. :-/

[jjtss]

I wish you nukeons would stop using the internet and sites like this to propagandize. The inhumanities perped in Fallujah against innocent civilians and the fun the coalition forces got out of killing people are enough to make the US the most hated nation on this planet. Real humans have not hated a nation as much since Nazi Germany. Those people in Fallujah were charred, shot and grenaded beyond all reason. If you want the truth go to Al Jazeera and read the truth