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silence!

greek fire

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Sir Wearer of Hats
1 hour ago, Awlsew said:

The reasons why ‘fracing’ is correct:

The engineering process involves hydraulic fracturing of rock, as in creating fractures or cracks. Frackturing is not a word, and looks terrible when written with a K.

When you abbreviate a word, you don’t add new letters, you remove the existing ones. Fracturing becomes fracing. Fracking isn’t much of an abbreviation, with only two letters missing from the total.

https://drillers.com/fracking-vs-fracing-end-debate/

However, phonemically speaking, you need rhe “k” in order to make the hard “c/k” sound at the end of the word, otherwise you follow the convention of “ac” as the last phoneme making a soft “see” sound, therefore you’d pronouce it like “race”.

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Awlsew
15 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

However, phonemically speaking, you need rhe “k” in order to make the hard “c/k” sound at the end of the word, otherwise you follow the convention of “ac” as the last phoneme making a soft “see” sound, therefore you’d pronouce it like “race”.

I understand. But the original term is 'fracturing', shortend to 'frac'.

'Chic', 'garlic', 'republic', 'Isaac', 'aztec', and many others end with a hard 'c', so why not 'frac'?

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Sir Wearer of Hats
37 minutes ago, Awlsew said:

I understand. But the original term is 'fracturing', shortend to 'frac'.

'Chic', 'garlic', 'republic', 'Isaac', 'aztec', and many others end with a hard 'c', so why not 'frac'?

You’ll notice that with the exception of “Isaac” none of those words go “ac”?

 

 

 

 

and Isaac is an anglophication Of a Semitic word that does, IIRC, end with a “k”.

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jaylemurph
1 hour ago, Awlsew said:

I understand. But the original term is 'fracturing', shortend to 'frac'.

'Chic', 'garlic', 'republic', 'Isaac', 'aztec', and many others end with a hard 'c', so why not 'frac'?

Except for garlic (whose original spelling was garlik), none of those are native English words. 

—Jaylemurph 

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jmccr8
6 hours ago, Awlsew said:

Only those who don't know spell it 'frack'. That is how we know about the un-informed in matters of hydraulic fracturing

Hi Awlsew

I live in an oil producing area and have built fracking equipment and up here we spell it fracking.

https://oilandgasinfo.ca/all-about-fracking/

jmccr8

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rashore
11 hours ago, Awlsew said:

Ancient Romans dug wells for water. The same methods could have been used to extract drip gas.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262931943_The_Wells_of_Pompeii

 

 

So... no source on how one digs up an area and drip gas collects then. Just one on how water was dug for.

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Kenemet
37 minutes ago, rashore said:

So... no source on how one digs up an area and drip gas collects then. Just one on how water was dug for.

The only sources I found said it was a byproduct natural gas... and natural gas is a gas (not a liquid) even in Antarctica.

Terms get confusing, because I also saw drip gas referred to as "natural gasoline" (hello rabbit hole) but since it's more volatile than oil or tar or asphalt, I don't really see it lurking around the landscape in pools and puddles.  I did find a history of petroleum distilling, but it's all small scale stuff.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_petroleum_industry

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Oniomancer
15 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Again, the Byzantine Empire was founded in 285 AD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire and they are not Greeks.  While they may have had Greek fire, this does not prove the Greeks used "drip gasoline" as Greek Fire in 500 BC.

You read the link without reading the link. The earlier concoctions are similar to Greek fire but not the same. The development of actual Greek fire, for the Byzantines, (Who were in fact very Greek, though not perhaps as Greek as the Greek Greeks.) is attributed to one Kallinikos (nice Greek name) from Heliopolis in what is now Lebanon, in or around 672.

I would point out again that Lycia mentioned in my previous post is located in Byzantine-controlled Anatolia. Assuming that isn't just Pliny being Pliny, he appears to be describing an adherent liquid rather than just gas percolating up through the substrate.

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Awlsew
2 hours ago, rashore said:

So... no source on how one digs up an area and drip gas collects then. Just one on how water was dug for.

 

9 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Awlsew

I live in an oil producing area and have built fracking equipment and up here we spell it fracking.

https://oilandgasinfo.ca/all-about-fracking/

jmccr8

It is an ongoing debate, may articles on line about it.

Can you tell us anything about drip gas?

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Awlsew
2 minutes ago, Oniomancer said:

You read the link without reading the link. The earlier concoctions are similar to Greek fire but not the same. The development of actual Greek fire, for the Byzantines, (Who were in fact very Greek, though not perhaps as Greek as the Greek Greeks.) is attributed to one Kallinikos (nice Greek name) from Heliopolis in what is now Lebanon, in or around 672.

I would point out again that Lycia mentioned in my previous post is located in Byzantine-controlled Anatolia. Assuming that isn't just Pliny being Pliny, he appears to be describing an adherent liquid rather than just gas percolating up through the substrate.

Natural gas condensate is liquid. Natural gasoline is liquid.

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cormac mac airt
7 minutes ago, Awlsew said:

It is an ongoing debate, may articles on line about it.

Can you tell us anything about drip gas?

And the point that should be obvious is that an ongoing debate, even amongst members of the industry, means you DO NOT speak for the industry but just one portion thereof. 

cormac

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Awlsew
2 hours ago, Kenemet said:

The only sources I found said it was a byproduct natural gas... and natural gas is a gas (not a liquid) even in Antarctica.

Terms get confusing, because I also saw drip gas referred to as "natural gasoline" (hello rabbit hole) but since it's more volatile than oil or tar or asphalt, I don't really see it lurking around the landscape in pools and puddles.  I did find a history of petroleum distilling, but it's all small scale stuff.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_petroleum_industry

Natural gas can be in liquid(also termed: wet gas) or gas form.

http://calteches.library.caltech.edu/106/1/Bowman.pdf

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Awlsew
1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said:

And the point that should be obvious is that an ongoing debate, even amongst members of the industry, means you DO NOT speak for the industry but just one portion thereof. 

cormac

When I first started at Columbus Business First, a few oil and gas lawyers and engineers gave me grief because of how I spelled the shorthand term for “hydraulic fracturing,” the drilling process where underground rocks are fractured to help extract oil and natural gas. Within the industry, it’s always been spelled “fracing” or sometimes “fraccing.”

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/blog/ohio-energy-inc/2014/05/will-this-settle-it-merriam-webster-picks-fracking.html

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Awlsew
2 hours ago, Kenemet said:

and natural gas is a gas (not a liquid)

Wet Natural Gas vs. Dry Natural Gas, What’s the Difference?

https://naturalgasnow.org/wet-natural-gas-dry-natural-gas-difference/

 

Natural gas is natural gas, right?

Not quite. There are two types of gas locked inside Pennsylvania’s Marcellus Shale: “wet gas” and “dry gas.” Here’s the difference, and why it matters:

https://stateimpact.npr.org/pennsylvania/tag/natural-gas-prices/

 

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cormac mac airt
3 minutes ago, Awlsew said:

When I first started at Columbus Business First, a few oil and gas lawyers and engineers gave me grief because of how I spelled the shorthand term for “hydraulic fracturing,” the drilling process where underground rocks are fractured to help extract oil and natural gas. Within the industry, it’s always been spelled “fracing” or sometimes “fraccing.”

https://www.bizjournals.com/columbus/blog/ohio-energy-inc/2014/05/will-this-settle-it-merriam-webster-picks-fracking.html

And yet, Columbus Business First DOESN'T speak for an entire industry. Besides, what's considered the norm today will not always be considered the norm in the future, regardless of industries. 

Now, what verifiable evidence do you have that any ancient peoples knew specifically what drip gas was and how to collect it? Being possible doesn't make it probable nor even likely. 

cormac

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Awlsew

Wet natural gas:  A mixture of hydrocarbon compounds and small quantities of various non hydrocarbons existing in the gaseous phase or in solution with crude oil in porous rock formations at reservoir conditions. 

https://www.eia.gov/tools/glossary/index.php?id=wet natural gas

Ok.

1. Wet gas/natural gasoline/condensate can be found where crude oil is.

2. Byzantines has access to crude oil.

3. Greek Fire may have been natural gasoline.

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Awlsew
5 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Now, what verifiable evidence do you have that any ancient peoples knew specifically what drip gas was and how to collect it? Being possible doesn't make it probable nor even likely. 

cormac

It was a highly guarded secret. That is the point. No one knows exactly. 

Edited by Awlsew

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Awlsew

Raw natural gas comes from three types of wells: oil wells, gas wells, and condensate wells. Natural gas that comes from oil wells is typically termed ‘associated gas’. This gas can exist separate from oil in the formation (free gas), or dissolved in the crude oil (dissolved gas). Natural gas from gas and condensate wells, in which there is little or no crude oil, is termed ‘nonassociated gas’. Gas wells typically produce raw natural gas by itself, while condensate wells produce free natural gas along with a semi-liquid hydrocarbon condensate.

http://naturalgas.org/naturalgas/processing-ng/

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Awlsew

“People knew about oil in the Antiquity, as shown by archaeological evidence, and later also by written records. The first documents attesting the existence of fuel oil on today’s territory of Romania do not tell us, however, how oil was extracted or what it was used for. Fuel oil is only mentioned in passing, as a mere topographic detail. 

https://web.archive.org/web/20090603102058/http://www.rri.ro/arh-art.shtml?lang=1&sec=9&art=3596

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cormac mac airt
22 minutes ago, Awlsew said:

It was a highly guarded secret. That is the point. No one knows exactly. 

So nothing that really points to drip gas specifically. Does it even meet the claim of being sticky or clinging to things by itself? 

cormac

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Awlsew

Natural gas was known to early man in the form of seepages from rocks and springs. 

Some natural gas includes impurities such as hydrogen sulfide("sour" gas), carbon dioxide ("acid" gas), and water ("wet" gas). 

The Romans also knew about natural gas, and Julius Caesarwas supposed to have witnessed a "burning spring" near Grenoble, France. 

https://www.encyclopedia.com/science-and-technology/chemistry/organic-chemistry/natural-gas

 

Greek Fire suposedly burned on water and water would not extinguish 

For its day, Greek Fire was an extremely powerful weapon, able to burn ferociously and resistant to being put out with water. In fact, it could burn very well on the water and was often used in naval battles.

http://alchemyathol.weebly.com/greek-fire.html

 

 

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Awlsew
7 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

So nothing that really points to drip gas specifically. Does it even meet the claim of being sticky or clinging to things by itself? 

cormac

 Natural Gasoline/drip gas would have been the main or the volatile ingrediant. Bitumen would have made it sticky.

Archaeologically speaking, I would like to mention the Roman mugs with pieces of pitch dating back to the turn of the 3rd century, and the fragments of bitumen dating back to the 5th and 6th centuries.” 

https://web.archive.org/web/20090603102058/http://www.rri.ro/arh-art.shtml?lang=1&sec=9&art=3596

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cormac mac airt
9 minutes ago, Awlsew said:

 Natural Gasoline/drip gas would have been the main or the volatile ingrediant. Bitumen would have made it sticky.

Archaeologically speaking, I would like to mention the Roman mugs with pieces of pitch dating back to the turn of the 3rd century, and the fragments of bitumen dating back to the 5th and 6th centuries.” 

https://web.archive.org/web/20090603102058/http://www.rri.ro/arh-art.shtml?lang=1&sec=9&art=3596

Sounds like a rather thin mixture.

cormac

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Awlsew

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire

The composition of Greek fire remains a matter of speculation and debate, with various proposals including combinations of pine resin, naphtha, quicklime, calcium phosphide, sulfur, or niter. In his history of Rome, Titus Livy describes priestesses of Bacchus dipping fire into the water, which did not extinguish.

 

 

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