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greek fire

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Awlsew

In attempting to reconstruct the Greek fire system, the concrete evidence, as it emerges from the contemporary literary references, provides the following characteristics:

  • It burned on water, and, according to some interpretations, was ignited by water. In addition, as numerous writers testify, it could be extinguished only by a few substances, such as sand (which deprived it of oxygen), strong vinegar, or old urine, presumably by some sort of chemical reaction.[39][40][41]
  • It was a liquid substance, and not some sort of projectile, as verified both by descriptions and the very name "liquid fire."[39][40]
  • At sea, it was usually ejected from a siphōn,[39][40] although earthenware pots or grenades filled with it or similar substances were also used.[42]
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire

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Awlsew
12 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Sounds like a rather thin mixture.

cormac

Greek Fire was a liquid substance.

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cormac mac airt
1 minute ago, Awlsew said:

In attempting to reconstruct the Greek fire system, the concrete evidence, as it emerges from the contemporary literary references, provides the following characteristics:

  • It burned on water, and, according to some interpretations, was ignited by water. In addition, as numerous writers testify, it could be extinguished only by a few substances, such as sand (which deprived it of oxygen), strong vinegar, or old urine, presumably by some sort of chemical reaction.[39][40][41]
  • It was a liquid substance, and not some sort of projectile, as verified both by descriptions and the very name "liquid fire."[39][40]
  • At sea, it was usually ejected from a siphōn,[39][40] although earthenware pots or grenades filled with it or similar substances were also used.[42]
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire

Will drip gas and bitumen burn on water? Can it be ejected from a siphon?

cormac

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cormac mac airt
Just now, Awlsew said:

Greek Fire was a liquid substance.

Too thin though and it becomes a waste to use.

cormac

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Awlsew
22 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Will drip gas and bitumen burn on water? Can it be ejected from a siphon?

cormac

Yes absolutely; and yes it could have been ejected from a siphon.

Edited by Awlsew
tense

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Awlsew
14 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Too thin though and it becomes a waste to use.

cormac

The consistancy of Greek Fire is unknown. I gather it would have had a consitancy of thin syrup.

 

Edited by Awlsew
tense

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Awlsew

Personally, this is just a theory about an ancient mystery. I have not tried to make it nor am I interested in producing such a thing.

My interest is digital only.

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Sir Wearer of Hats
1 hour ago, Awlsew said:

Wet Natural Gas vs. Dry Natural Gas, What’s the Difference?

https://naturalgasnow.org/wet-natural-gas-dry-natural-gas-difference/

 

Natural gas is natural gas, right?

Not quite. There are two types of gas locked inside Pennsylvania’s Marcellus Shale: “wet gas” and “dry gas.” Here’s the difference, and why it matters:

https://stateimpact.npr.org/pennsylvania/tag/natural-gas-prices/

 

Dry gas just makes the room smell, wet gas means you need to change your undies as well.

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cormac mac airt
18 minutes ago, Awlsew said:

Yes absolutely; and yes it could have been ejected from a siphon.

So you’ve seen a drip gas/bitumen mixture burn on water? 

cormac

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Awlsew
5 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

So you’ve seen a drip gas/bitumen mixture burn on water? 

cormac

No. I had Biology, we didn't use them much(I was thinking bunsen burner)

Edited by Awlsew

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Awlsew
37 minutes ago, Awlsew said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire

The composition of Greek fire remains a matter of speculation and debate, with various proposals including combinations of pine resin, naphtha, quicklime, calcium phosphide, sulfur, or niter. In his history of Rome, Titus Livy describes priestesses of Bacchus dipping fire into the water, which did not extinguish.

 

 

The above video shows natural gas burning on/in water. That is really all I know as to actully seeing water on fire.

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Awlsew
7 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

So you’ve seen a drip gas/bitumen mixture burn on water? 

cormac

I have not seen it, tried to make it, or anything tangible such as that.  Heck I hadn't even heard of this hear "Greek Fire" until I saw a show on the History Channel last year. 

 

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Awlsew

Consequently, although the presence of either quicklime or saltpeter in the mixture cannot be entirely excluded, they were not the primary ingredient.[59][46] Most modern scholars agree that Greek fire was based on either crude or refined petroleum, comparable to modern napalm. The Byzantines had easy access to crude oil from the naturally occurring wells around the Black Sea (e.g., the wells around Tmutorakan noted by Constantine Porphyrogennetos) or in various locations throughout the Middle East.[44][60][61]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire

 

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cormac mac airt
16 minutes ago, Awlsew said:

I have not seen it, tried to make it, or anything tangible such as that.  Heck I hadn't even heard of this hear "Greek Fire" until I saw a show on the History Channel last year. 

Yet you DID say it would work, hence my confusion.

cormac

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cormac mac airt
4 minutes ago, Awlsew said:

Consequently, although the presence of either quicklime or saltpeter in the mixture cannot be entirely excluded, they were not the primary ingredient.[59][46] Most modern scholars agree that Greek fire was based on either crude or refined petroleum, comparable to modern napalm. The Byzantines had easy access to crude oil from the naturally occurring wells around the Black Sea (e.g., the wells around Tmutorakan noted by Constantine Porphyrogennetos) or in various locations throughout the Middle East.[44][60][61]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire

I think many, if not most, of us already know 'something' about Greek fire, but how do you reconcile a belief by most scholars about it being based on crude or refined petroleum with your speculation of it being drip gas and bitumen?

cormac

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Awlsew
12 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

I think many, if not most, of us already know 'something' about Greek fire, but how do you reconcile a belief by most scholars about it being based on crude or refined petroleum with your speculation of it being drip gas and bitumen?

cormac

Where there is crude, there can be drip gas as well. Bitumen was used by the Byzantines.

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Awlsew
16 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Yet you DID say it would work, hence my confusion.

cormac

Both are flammable substances.

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jaylemurph
3 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Dry gas just makes the room smell, wet gas means you need to change your undies as well.

The most sensible contribution anyone’s made so far in this thread. 

—Jaylemurph

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Kenemet
5 hours ago, Oniomancer said:

You read the link without reading the link. The earlier concoctions are similar to Greek fire but not the same. The development of actual Greek fire, for the Byzantines, (Who were in fact very Greek, though not perhaps as Greek as the Greek Greeks.) is attributed to one Kallinikos (nice Greek name) from Heliopolis in what is now Lebanon, in or around 672.

I would point out again that Lycia mentioned in my previous post is located in Byzantine-controlled Anatolia. Assuming that isn't just Pliny being Pliny, he appears to be describing an adherent liquid rather than just gas percolating up through the substrate.

I figured that out eventually.  Feel like a doofus.  :)

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jaylemurph
3 hours ago, Awlsew said:

Consequently, although the presence of either quicklime or saltpeter in the mixture cannot be entirely excluded, they were not the primary ingredient.[59][46] Most modern scholars agree that Greek fire was based on either crude or refined petroleum, comparable to modern napalm. The Byzantines had easy access to crude oil from the naturally occurring wells around the Black Sea (e.g., the wells around Tmutorakan noted by Constantine Porphyrogennetos) or in various locations throughout the Middle East.[44][60][61]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_fire

 

Hmmm. Most Ancient Greek references to the far west like that are roughly equivalent to American Western tall tales — to be taken with liberal doses of salt. 

(Not an out and out attack on info presented; just an observation.)

—Jaylemurph 

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Awlsew
12 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

Hmmm. Most Ancient Greek references to the far west like that are roughly equivalent to American Western tall tales — to be taken with liberal doses of salt. 

(Not an out and out attack on info presented; just an observation.)

—Jaylemurph 

Well there is the brine. But hey, wet dogs gonna wet.

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jmccr8
9 hours ago, Awlsew said:

It is an ongoing debate, may articles on line about it.

Can you tell us anything about drip gas?

Hi Awlsew

I worked in shop at the time as a fitter/welder for structural steel and pressure vessels so no I do not have intimate knowledge of what goes on in the oil and gas industry, you bring a blueprint and I make the product so I have built everything from hiway tankers to ull type airport sweepers and much more and was required to log my work accurately and all the paperwork received and submitted was listed as fracking.

jmccr8

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jaylemurph

Looks like we stumbled upon the fracking industry’s little shibboleth. 

Ironically, no one /outside/ the fracking industry has to figure out who the bad guy is...

—Jaylemurph 

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Pettytalk
11 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

So you’ve seen a drip gas/bitumen mixture burn on water? 

cormac

Crude oil contains the various combinations of hydrocarbons chains, of which drip gas and bitumen. 

 

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