Government to ask Queen to suspend Parliament

[Unusual Tournament]

4 hours ago, A rather obscure Bassoon said:

You delude yourself, the rest of the world including Australia trade with each other quite comfortably and Last time I looked they weren't in the EU.

Maybe you should read up on Economics.

I’m deluded. The worlds leading economists are deluded. But the dude that wouldn’t know a comb if it pierced his liver is a genius.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

7 hours ago, OverSword said:

So it doesn't matter why the people you elected apparently aren't doing their job?  Parliament is sovereign is your reason for not caring?  Bit of a cop out Setton.  

Parliamentarians are elected to act, based on their finer understanding of issues for the good of their electorate. When what the electorate wants and what may be good for them conflict we end up ... well, where you are now. 

No one in the electorate wants to go to war, but parliament votes and off people go to war. No one in the electorate wants higher taxes, but parliament votes and taxes go up. Blindly following will of the people  will leave a nation broke, with no infrastructure and invaded. But the needs of the people are represented by their elected parliamentarian who have The unenviable job of balancing the will of the peoplecagainst thr needs of the people. 

[RoofGardener]

8 hours ago, Setton said:

No one voted to leave without a deal and you know it. 

And you've just been beaten, again, through the proper democratic process. 

We voted to leave the European Union. We didn't vote for a deal. 

[RoofGardener]

11 hours ago, Setton said:

The Prime Minister is attempting to prorogue (close) parliament so that we have to leave without a deal by default. 

MPs are challenging that by voting tonight to take control of parliamentary business. If they succeed they can pass a bill requiring parliament to approve a no deal. 

They're acting to ensure our sovereign parliament makes the final decision over Brexit, not an unelected prime minister acting without any mandate.

We gave him a mandate back in 2016. It was called "the referendum". 

[toast]

8 hours ago, A rather obscure Bassoon said:

You delude yourself, the rest of the world including Australia trade with each other quite comfortably and Last time I looked they weren't in the EU. Maybe you should read up on Economics.

By a hard Brexit the UK will lose a duty&tax free market with 450M customers and its very unlikely that such change will not have a negative impact on UK`s economy.

[RoofGardener]

3 minutes ago, toast said:

By a hard Brexit the UK will lose a duty&tax free market with 450M customers and its very unlikely that such change will not have a negative impact on UK`s economy.

In the short term that may be true @toast. However, government revenues will increase significantly due to import tarifs. 

But the important thing is that we will be free from an organisation that is trying to create a United States of Europe, which would diminish Parliament to the level of a regional "county council". 

Consider Ireland. The UK can say "no problem.... we will not impose ANY customs duty on Irish  goods entering the UK, and we will have freedom of movement for anyone presenting an Irish Passport at the border. "

The Irish, on the other hand, will be compelled to charge customs duty on goods ENTERING Ireland from the UK, and will be compelled to put travel restrictions in place on the border. Because... Ireland does not control its own borders. That is a EU 'competence'. 

Question: What do you call a country that does not control its own borders ? Answer: conquered. 

[RAyMO]

9 hours ago, A rather obscure Bassoon said:

You delude yourself, the rest of the world including Australia trade with each other quite comfortably and Last time I looked they weren't in the EU.

Maybe you should read up on Economics.

Pretty sure Australia has FTAs with its major trading partners including China and I am sure they are negotiating a deal with the EU.

The EU is of lesser importance to Australia simply due to geography.

[RAyMO]

16 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

However, government revenues will increase significantly due to import tarifs. 

Imposing your own tariffs after breaking from the EU does not necessarily mean Government revenues will increase significantly, there are counter acting issues - such that most economists believe government revenue will be lower permanently.

[RAyMO]

22 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Question: What do you call a country that does not control its own borders ? Answer: conquered.

Exactly why Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales should leave the UK. Brexit has shown quite clearly that as it stands the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish are under the control of English, to the extent that the views of people in Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales have zero weight even when they bear the greatest impact.

Edited September 4, 2019 by RAyMO

[Habitat]

You know, I can't even remember the name of the PM who presided over the Brexit vote, and I can remember a lot of British PM's ! He must have left a big impression !

[hetrodoxly]

41 minutes ago, Habitat said:

You know, I can't even remember the name of the PM who presided over the Brexit vote, and I can remember a lot of British PM's ! He must have left a big impression !

Why should you?

[Habitat]

4 minutes ago, hetrodoxly said:

Why should you?

Why shouldn't I ? He was in the news often enough ! Still can't remember the name !

[hetrodoxly]

7 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

You may be right about that.  President Trump thinks Boris is all that and a bag of chips as we say, and he will be very happy to do a deal.  But you may also be right that we smell the sweat of fear.  His primary policy is America First.  You will need to start buying more of our farm products, including the GMO ones and the chlorine washed chicken if you want a deal.  With the Chinese buying elsewhere, we have a lot of soybeans corn and pork to unload as well.  Probably American cheese too.  Better get used to Velveeta.

I am not sure if we will want to buy anything from you though, you know how much we like a positive trade balance.  Steel would have to be awful cheap to overcome the tariff. Maybe a small quantity of Stilton for the elites and some shortbread cookies for the nostalgic, and a few nice wool sweaters from Shetland and Orkney.   Oh wait, will they be staying in the EU?  Never mind.

Utter nonsense, it's companies that trade not countries, you already buy a lot from us why would it stop, if people want to buy our goods they will that doesn't mater if we're in the EU or not, out of the EU we 'will' decide what tariffs if any to put on our goods, i think your stuck with your dreadful cheese mountain as we have the best in the world it would be a one way flow.  

[toast]

1 hour ago, RoofGardener said:

In the short term that may be true @toast. However, government revenues will increase significantly due to import tarifs. 

Well, no. First thing to think about is the decreasing consumers purchasing power as a result of rising prices for import products and services, which will reduce the amount of imports of products into the UK. Of course there will be an increase of import duty&tax earnings but thats not an indicator to the benefit of a nation`s prosperity. If the duty&tax earnings raise by 20%, lets say plus 100M£ and the exports decrease by 20%, lets say 2B£, then there is no compensation of the loss, on the contrary. 2nd, import duty&tax isnt a tool to generate value for the local GDP but primary to protect domestic products and services from cheaper foreign products.

Quote

But the important thing is that we will be free from an organisation that is trying to create a United States of Europe, which would diminish Parliament to the level of a regional "county council". 

All communities must be led somehow. Families, companies, countries and nations as well, thats the only way how it works well. And thats the very same modus operadi that was extensively executed by the British Empire in the past, with the well known results related to wealth and growth of a community. I think the pro-Brexit bunch still has the (old) desire which made the BE possible. But the very big difference between the (former) British Empire and the EU is, the EU is a democratic community and the BE was not.

United States of Europa, why do you think its a disadvantage? Today, there are 3 key nations who determine the world market. Its the EU, the USA and China. Thats todays Status Quo but thats not fixed for all the future and we have to expect other nations to join the club, India for example , which will make the global competitive situation more difficult for the established members. Because of that we need a economically strong and competitive capable EU and I`m still in the opinion that GB should stay in that community, to the benefit of itself and the EU as well.

Quote

 Question: What do you call a country that does not control its own borders ? Answer: conquered. 

See above (British Empire).

Edited September 4, 2019 by toast

[Helen of Annoy]

12 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

Good luck when we are gone.

Just remember that because Germany has already tied most of Europe to it, and Russia to it with its gas purchasing, that its Axis is too powerful for the combined might of the USA and UK to free you.

Hopefully

Seriously, it's 21st century already. Stop thinking in WW terms. 

 

Besides, you've still got that kicking out of the EU to stop. Your Parliament did show not everyone's insane there, but no problem was solved yet. Better get on to it, before your economy is reduced to Trump's humanitarian aid  

[itsnotoutthere]

10 hours ago, Torchwood said:

I'll bet the majority want all the brown people to go "home" , and think deal or no deal is a gameshow.  Also some nonsense about 3-pin plugs, manual grape crushing, vacuum cleaner power restrictions, chips wrapped in newspaper and being allowed to sell faulty electrical goods...(I seriously wish I was kidding; some of you Quitters may have a had a clear idea of what you wanted, especially after a toff told you how good it would be for you, but a lot of the guys you got onside to vote with you are barely smart enough to get dressed without hurting themselves.) 

 

Anyway, Quick Question;  Prorogation; After its happened, is anyone beholden to Brexit?  As I understand it the Parliamentary Session ends, anything unfinished is binned, with a  "Soz Boss, we've run outta time, innit?" . So all Mandates for Anything or Nothing are out the Window.   Yes/no?

See you fell for the Guardian B*****ks.

(p.s. where are the 'brown people' in europe)

Edited September 4, 2019 by itsnotoutthere

[RAyMO]

8 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

You may be right about that.  President Trump thinks Boris is all that and a bag of chips as we say, and he will be very happy to do a deal.  But you may also be right that we smell the sweat of fear.  His primary policy is America First.  You will need to start buying more of our farm products, including the GMO ones and the chlorine washed chicken if you want a deal.  With the Chinese buying elsewhere, we have a lot of soybeans corn and pork to unload as well.  Probably American cheese too.  Better get used to Velveeta.

I am not sure if we will want to buy anything from you though, you know how much we like a positive trade balance.  Steel would have to be awful cheap to overcome the tariff. Maybe a small quantity of Stilton for the elites and some shortbread cookies for the nostalgic, and a few nice wool sweaters from Shetland and Orkney.   Oh wait, will they be staying in the EU?  Never mind.

Absolutely. Trump believes a trade deal is only worthwhile as long as the USA end up being net exporters in the deal. The UK brexiteers complain about being net importers with the EU. I do not see how that relationship will be any different with the US.

The UK is already showing its NEED of an American deal and the US will use that need for its advantage. Boris showed the UKs lack backbone when dealing with the USA with the "faint and Sheep like" minor critique of the US at the G7.

But that is not even the worst of it. The USA will insist on the dispute resolution method which every country in the EU rejected (except the pliant UK) where British government policy and British courts can be overruled by a panel of corporate interests. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by RAyMO

[RAyMO]

1 hour ago, toast said:

Today, there are 3 key nations who determine the world market. Its the EU, the USA and China

And this is key to what is happening in the world today.

The USA see china and the EU as current economic threats and potentially in the future, bigger and a stronger economic threats. Hence the trade war with China, and Trump's support for Brexit (to weaken the EU) and his failed attempt to encourage France to break from the EU.

Trump is a Globalist - he is all for ensuring that only the USA dominates the global economy come what may.

Edited September 4, 2019 by RAyMO

[RAyMO]

4 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

But the needs of the people are represented by their elected parliamentarian who have The unenviable job of balancing the will of the peoplecagainst thr needs of the people. 

very true

[Sir Smoke aLot]

16 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

That's the type of corruption and shameless frauds inherited directly from the former regime. I wasn't against it because it was socialist, I was against it because it wasn't really socialist. Or just. Or sane. Or going forward. Or sustainable.

I partly agree with this. It is, by my opinion, not inherited from the former regime but it's how people here function. It's hard claim but i stay behind it, we have a lot to learn about self governance (Bosnia a lot more than others) but that doesn't mean that we can not lead our people's to prosperity, far from that. We can improve a lot and that is positive thing, not negative.

Prior system had mechanisms to fight corruption in state companies, new system is in strong hug with people of questionable motives (see privatization). So it's not really system related as much as it is characteristic of people, one which got power and opportunity in newly formed ex-Yu countries.

As of late 1980's all sorts of manipulations and frauds were made by or supported by the state, like Fikret Abdic with Agrokomerc. Large fraud committed by the state, fraud which almost got the man on president position. Today it's normal to have such figures on top leading positions so there is connection, between late 1980's Yugoslavia and corruption of today. But i would not say the same for earlier days of Yugoslavian history, when most of the infrastructure which we use today was made.

EU might help solve this and to prevent possibilities of these things to happen but it's a risky bet anyway one looks at it because it has to be solved from the inside.

16 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

To join the EU, Croatia, among other things, had to overhaul all the institutions, introduce actual responsibility and transparency and prove we're working on eradicating the traditional all-present bribe culture. I think that alone was huge benefit for my society. No prices had to be simply raised, what your politicians are doing is pure fraud, of course. Some prices may change, due to better regulations. Which means maybe you'll pay more for a plastic bag, but you'll pay less for the phone and Internet. Introducing Euro may result in merchants greedily 'round up' prices, but that's not the fault of the EU, that's the fault of mothers who raised such Iscariots. Our problem are destroyed economies with political casts who attempt to behave exactly like the quasi-socialist elite from which they all come: do nothing and wait for your bribe. 

That indeed is changing in Croatia. I'm counting on the EU to keep that trend alive. If the EU really was to break down tomorrow, in a week we would fall back into unbound corruption and backwardness.  

Therefore, I wish us both more of the EU influence.  

Well said. I am optimistic, especially for Croatia. If enough changes are made in legal system Croatia will have clean foundations to continue with or without EU, since society has been educated about dangers of corruption, knowledge which was lacking before.

We should make a topic about this but subject is so large that we might break internet, especially if our Serbian friends join the party

[Duke Wellington]

I think its time for Boris to go back to the Queen.

And get that Parliament prorogued today.

[stevewinn]

7 hours ago, toast said:

By a hard Brexit the UK will lose a duty&tax free market with 450M customers and its very unlikely that such change will not have a negative impact on UK`s economy.

How much do we benefit from this Customs Union. less than 1% since our membership of it. and that according to a German study.

But you also forget the other Price we pay, to get this 1% benefit we pay 0.7% of GDP, So, in reality we accept Brussels rule for 0.3%. and a £80 to £100Billion trade deficit with this mass market of 450 million, and for the hard of thinking, that means the 65million of us are buying more off the 450 than the 450 million buy from us. not so glorious market is it. - it should be the other way around if it was so good. only 6% of British businesses trade with the EU. meaning 94% do not. but have to follow EU rules and regulations.

But that's right lets hamstring ourselves. lets be unable to conduct our own trade deals with the rest of the world even though 55% of UK trade is with non-EU countries. and trade with the EU as been in decline, a downward trend for over a decade.

 

 

 

[stevewinn]

11 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

I think its time for Boris to go back to the Queen.

And get that Parliament prorogued today.

I think if Boris is unable to get backing in Parliament for an election, then when these MP's pass legislation to block no Deal Brexit thinking they are all big and clever - Boris with the Privy council will return to the Queen and advise her not to give royal assent to the Bill and thus prevent the Bill becoming Law. in effect vetoing it. - and before the democracy deniers fall out of their pram. Its been done before plenty of times. Their Great white hope Tony Blair when PM done so with MP's vote on the Iraqi War.

I find it Funny, the EU doesn't want us to leave. Remainer MP's dont want us to leave. So, they want to pass a Law which says we cannot leave the EU without a Deal. the EU not wanting us to leave simply doesn't give us or offer us a deal, so by Law we don't Leave. and Remain MP's think this is a good strategy.

 

[itsnotoutthere]

https://order-order.com/2019/09/04/revealed-lords-plan-block-remainer-legislation/

https://order-order.com/2019/09/04/lords-turn-prepared-100-hour-debate/

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by itsnotoutthere

[+OverSword]

10 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Parliamentarians are elected to act, based on their finer understanding of issues for the good of their electorate.

So why did they put leave to a referendum?  Most of them obviously were for staying and after all, they know better, right?  Are they all knowing geniuses or too afraid to offend the public by doing they're job?  You can't have it both ways I think.  The big mistake they made was thinking that they could propagan...er I mean, educate the public into seeing it their way when it came to brexit but the public already had enough of Europe and not enough were persuaded to change their minds.

Edited September 4, 2019 by OverSword