Helen of Annoy Posted September 5, 2019 #401 Share Posted September 5, 2019 @itsnotoutthere So, have a second referendum so everyone knows it wasn't against the will of the majority of your population to kick you out on October 31st, without any deal. Any elections you might or might not have won't change that. No one cares, 'scuse me bluntness, except you, of course. A referendum could postpone the booting out date, and what do you have to worry? It will be 104% for Brexit, judging by the propaganda in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted September 5, 2019 #402 Share Posted September 5, 2019 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said: @itsnotoutthere So, have a second referendum so everyone knows it wasn't against the will of the majority of your population to kick you out on October 31st, without any deal. Any elections you might or might not have won't change that. No one cares, 'scuse me bluntness, except you, of course. A referendum could postpone the booting out date, and what do you have to worry? It will be 104% for Brexit, judging by the propaganda in this thread. What deal? The EU haven't offered a deal. the WA is what they have offered and has been defeated, turned down three times by this remainer Parliament. (that's how bad it is, that the EUs own supporters cannot support it) So what are you talking about. Edited September 5, 2019 by stevewinn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helen of Annoy Posted September 5, 2019 #403 Share Posted September 5, 2019 22 minutes ago, stevewinn said: What deal? The EU haven't offered a deal. the WA is what they have offered and has been defeated, turned down three times by this remainer Parliament. (that's how bad it is, that the EUs own supporters cannot support it) So what are you talking about. What deal are you talking about? The EU is kicking you out on October 31st, without any deal. How can you even dream of trying to spin that into imagining someone mentioned a deal for you? Besides, isn't that common knowledge that you can't negotiate any 'deals' regarding your relations with the EU while you're still a member of the EU? You had a chance to make agreements on technical details of your exit, that's all. Maybe you should've paid more attention to what the rest of the EU is saying, not just to your own propaganda. He thinks there's deal for them. To be offered, no less. You've been given a deadline, sunshine. Never mind. Have patience, less than two months and you're all Donald's. What a bizarre end of a former empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itsnotoutthere Posted September 5, 2019 #404 Share Posted September 5, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said: What deal are you talking about? The EU is kicking you out on October 31st, without any deal. How can you even dream of trying to spin that into imagining someone mentioned a deal for you? Besides, isn't that common knowledge that you can't negotiate any 'deals' regarding your relations with the EU while you're still a member of the EU? You had a chance to make agreements on technical details of your exit, that's all. Maybe you should've paid more attention to what the rest of the EU is saying, not just to your own propaganda. He thinks there's deal for them. To be offered, no less. You've been given a deadline, sunshine. Never mind. Have patience, less than two months and you're all Donald's. What a bizarre end of a former empire. I don't think you're quite getting it. The EU don't want us to leave, they can't afford for us to leave & they've been doing everything they can to make it as difficult as possible for us to leave. Lets all meet up back here on the 1st of November and revue what you have just typed above, I dare you. Edited September 5, 2019 by itsnotoutthere 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted September 5, 2019 #405 Share Posted September 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said: What deal are you talking about? The EU is kicking you out on October 31st, without any deal. How can you even dream of trying to spin that into imagining someone mentioned a deal for you? Besides, isn't that common knowledge that you can't negotiate any 'deals' regarding your relations with the EU while you're still a member of the EU? You had a chance to make agreements on technical details of your exit, that's all. Maybe you should've paid more attention to what the rest of the EU is saying, not just to your own propaganda. He thinks there's deal for them. To be offered, no less. You've been given a deadline, sunshine. Never mind. Have patience, less than two months and you're all Donald's. What a bizarre end of a former empire. You keep mentioning the EU and no deal. like there is an alternative. on your other point its music to our ears, We can only hope the EU refuses the wishes of the remainers to extend our leaving date. We should have left on the 29th March as nothing as changed between then and now only that its cost us £6Billion pounds. now remainer MP's want to extend that to January 31st costing us a further £3 billion. am sure the EU will keep us in as long as the cheques keep coming as their project is skint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted September 5, 2019 #406 Share Posted September 5, 2019 7 hours ago, Aaron2016 said: Maybe an early General election could be called with each party offering a key choice? Cons - Leave with / without a deal Labs - Leave with a bad deal Libs - Remain Trouble is, how on Earth do any of them get a majority for any proposal in the house? I recall earlier this year Kenneth Clarke offered a proposal for a softer Brexit that almost passed. First things first. No Deal option taken off the table. Then elections will thin out the choices. A delay and then a Brexit mandate in the form of a referendum. Clear and concise. Brexit is a long way off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted September 5, 2019 #407 Share Posted September 5, 2019 3 hours ago, stevewinn said: why wait for the Tories, - Labour had the chance to do this and **** themselves. they didn't want an election then and don't now, because they know they wont win. hence they bottled it. Funny its let the people decide, second Ref was ruled out 3 times by MP's in Parliament, they then called for a GE let the people decide they shouted, when Theresa May was PM, Boris is PM, and when offered the chance they bottled it. But then again the people decided in 2016. and the ruling class don't want to be told again. Oh they want an election just not one that favours Boris Johnson. 4 parliamentary loses and no deal option is dead. All without an election. Once proper democratic choices are established there will be elections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted September 5, 2019 #408 Share Posted September 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, Captain Risky said: First things first. No Deal option taken off the table. Then elections will thin out the choices. A delay and then a Brexit mandate in the form of a referendum. Clear and concise. Brexit is a long way off. Hang on, so you take leaving with no deal off the table. So, tell us what sort of deal are we going to get with a negotiating position like that? - what incentive is there for any party in such a negotiation to offer anything. or equally the EU doesn't want us to leave so as long as they don't offer a deal we don't leave. So, the EU is in total control of our leaving. Also the EU as stated it wont talk of deals until we have left or agree to its terms of the WA, which we have to remind ourselves is so bad even the EU own supporters in Parliament cannot agree to it. But like you this Parliament showed itself to be prepared to subvert the negotiating position of the government and subjugate this country to the will of the EU. Clearly most MPs don’t want to govern an independent, self-governing country trading with the world but to be law and rule takers from the EU. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TigerBright19 Posted September 5, 2019 #409 Share Posted September 5, 2019 7 minutes ago, Captain Risky said: First things first. No Deal option taken off the table. Then elections will thin out the choices. A delay and then a Brexit mandate in the form of a referendum. Clear and concise. Brexit is a long way off. Can the decision to block a no-deal brexit be reversed? The motion was passed, but is that decision only valid temporarily, and the quickest way to erase that decision is to call an early General election that might wipe the slate clean so that Boris can leave without a deal, and with the Queen's approval in her address? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted September 5, 2019 #410 Share Posted September 5, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Captain Risky said: Oh they want an election just not one that favours Boris Johnson. 4 parliamentary loses and no deal option is dead. All without an election. Once proper democratic choices are established there will be elections. We've been hear before with the cooper Bill, it never served you then and it wont now, they cant keep running from the people, we will have our say, tick tock. the 14th October is before 31st, if Labour or a Remainer coalition win the GE they could cancel Brexit altogether. why don't they allow the people to show their gratitude. instead they make excuses. favour a ref as they wont lose their jobs whatever the outcome. and say they dont want a GE until no deal Brexit as been passed, but look at the Prize they could win the election which is before the leaving date and Cancel Brexit totally. why mess about when you could achieve all you want. Edited September 5, 2019 by stevewinn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted September 5, 2019 #411 Share Posted September 5, 2019 Just now, stevewinn said: Hang on, so you take leaving with no deal off the table. So, tell us what sort of deal are we going to get with a negotiating position like that? - what incentive is there for any party in such a negotiation to offer anything. or equally the EU doesn't want us to leave so as long as they don't offer a deal we don't leave. So, the EU is in total control of our leaving. Also the EU as stated it wont talk of deals until we have left or agree to its terms of the WA, which we have to remind ourselves is so bad even the EU own supporters in Parliament cannot agree to it. But like you this Parliament showed itself to be prepared to subvert the negotiating position of the government and subjugate this country to the will of the EU. Clearly most MPs don’t want to govern an independent, self-governing country trading with the world but to be law and rule takers from the EU. I’d assume taking self harm, no deal off the table would be the best possible position to negotiate from. I explained to you earlier that a mandate from the people in the leadership of the UK at this time in the form of an election before Boris started this nonsense was needed. Like all things Brexit it was poorly planned and Boris can reap what he has harvested. Following this thread has shown me that the old adage of biting the nose to spite the face is still alive and very relevant. Hating the EU for being successful is not a viable option. Try again I’m afraid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted September 5, 2019 #412 Share Posted September 5, 2019 10 minutes ago, Aaron2016 said: Can the decision to block a no-deal brexit be reversed? The motion was passed, but is that decision only valid temporarily, and the quickest way to erase that decision is to call an early General election that might wipe the slate clean so that Boris can leave without a deal, and with the Queen's approval in her address? That’s a good question. I really don’t know if blocking no deal can stay. A sudden shift would be required to reform new battle lines. Is there something new or relevant that can do so quickly? Don’t know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted September 5, 2019 #413 Share Posted September 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, Captain Risky said: I’d assume taking self harm, no deal off the table would be the best possible position to negotiate from. I explained to you earlier that a mandate from the people in the leadership of the UK at this time in the form of an election before Boris started this nonsense was needed. Like all things Brexit it was poorly planned and Boris can reap what he has harvested. Following this thread has shown me that the old adage of biting the nose to spite the face is still alive and very relevant. Hating the EU for being successful is not a viable option. Try again I’m afraid! So whats the answer to the question. what sort of deal are the EU going to offer with such a negotiating position. what incentive do they have, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted September 5, 2019 #414 Share Posted September 5, 2019 3 minutes ago, Captain Risky said: I’d assume taking self harm, no deal off the table would be the best possible position to negotiate from. I explained to you earlier that a mandate from the people in the leadership of the UK at this time in the form of an election before Boris started this nonsense was needed. Like all things Brexit it was poorly planned and Boris can reap what he has sown. Following this thread has shown me that the old adage of biting the nose to spite the face is still alive and very relevant. Hating the EU for being successful is not a viable option. Try again I’m afraid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted September 5, 2019 #415 Share Posted September 5, 2019 Just now, stevewinn said: So whats the answer to the question. what sort of deal are the EU going to offer with such a negotiating position. what incentive do they have, Why does it have to be a deal? A logical trade agreement would suit the UK better. But if the people want a competitive trade deal to go head to head with the EU then that’s fine too. But I don’t think that the UK can force the EU to sacrifice it’s trade strengths and advantages for making a bunch of imperialists happy. The UK can do what it likes BUT it seems that the people and the MP’s that represent them do t want cut trade ties to Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted September 5, 2019 #416 Share Posted September 5, 2019 5 minutes ago, Captain Risky said: Why does it have to be a deal? A logical trade agreement would suit the UK better. But if the people want a competitive trade deal to go head to head with the EU then that’s fine too. But I don’t think that the UK can force the EU to sacrifice it’s trade strengths and advantages for making a bunch of imperialists happy. The UK can do what it likes BUT it seems that the people and the MP’s that represent them do t want cut trade ties to Europe. Again with your illogical stance of No-deal, There is no incentive for the EU to offer agree to anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setton Posted September 5, 2019 #417 Share Posted September 5, 2019 2 hours ago, hetrodoxly said: You know a general election now is just as good as. If they're both just as good, why not a referendum? What are you so scared of? 2 hours ago, stevewinn said: Surprise surprise the forums chief Democracy denier doesn't support a General Election. Why, because... ... Johnson will use it as a delaying tactic. As I already said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unusual Tournament Posted September 5, 2019 #418 Share Posted September 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, stevewinn said: Again with your illogical stance of No-deal, There is no incentive for the EU to offer agree to anything. The EU is bigger and the hurt to the UK would be significantly greater than the EU would suffer under a no deal. The UK isnt big enough or strong enough to demand any more. It will stop being an investment hub into Europe and Coming under the economic thumb of the U.S. is not a viable alternative. Brexiteers have a bad hand. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted September 5, 2019 #419 Share Posted September 5, 2019 25 minutes ago, Aaron2016 said: Can the decision to block a no-deal brexit be reversed? The motion was passed, but is that decision only valid temporarily, and the quickest way to erase that decision is to call an early General election that might wipe the slate clean so that Boris can leave without a deal, and with the Queen's approval in her address? Yes it can as it only applies to the 31st October leaving date. Even then Boris could refuse to ask the EU for an extension in the same way the EU could refuse a request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted September 5, 2019 #420 Share Posted September 5, 2019 1 minute ago, Setton said: If they're both just as good, why not a referendum? What are you so scared of? ... Johnson will use it as a delaying tactic. As I already said. hey? He'll set a date of 14th October for a GE. You could win the GE and Cancel Brexit before the 31st. the Ultimate Prize. what's your next excuse? I've explained why not a Referendum. because MP's have to face the people. a peoples vote, sounds like a good name for it. im sure you'll agree. Why have a Referendum where MP's jobs are not on the line. the people cannot show their gratitude in a Referendum in quite the same way they can in GE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Setton Posted September 5, 2019 #421 Share Posted September 5, 2019 Just now, stevewinn said: hey? He'll set a date of 14th October for a GE. You could win the GE and Cancel Brexit before the 31st. the Ultimate Prize. what's your next excuse? So he says. He also said he didn't intend to prorogue Parliament. After he'd agreed to do so. We all know he can't be trusted. Even more than most politicians. Besides, if we had an election now there's a chance albeit slim, that he stays in because the opposition vote is split. And again, the minority will get their way over the majority. He's overplayed his hand and lost. Its sad that his last hope is for Labour to rescue him. And funny. Quote I've explained why not a Referendum. because MP's have to face the people. a peoples vote, sounds like a good name for it. im sure you'll agree. Why have a Referendum where MP's jobs are not on the line. the people cannot show their gratitude in a Referendum in quite the same way they can in GE. I thought it was about the will of the people? You're the one said the EU elections can't be taken as an expression of public will on Brexit. Why is a general election different now? You know what is a good measure of what people want from Brexit? A referendum. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted September 5, 2019 #422 Share Posted September 5, 2019 7 minutes ago, Captain Risky said: The EU is bigger and the hurt to the UK would be significantly greater than the EU would suffer under a no deal. The UK isnt big enough or strong enough to demand any more. It will stop being an investment hub into Europe and Coming under the economic thumb of the U.S. is not a viable alternative. Brexiteers have a bad hand. So, here you agree taking a stance of No-deal is a bad or no negotiation strategy at all from the UK. so illogical and no position at all. So the question follows who goes into negotiations with such a stance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevewinn Posted September 5, 2019 #423 Share Posted September 5, 2019 1 minute ago, Setton said: So he says. He also said he didn't intend to prorogue Parliament. After he'd agreed to do so. We all know he can't be trusted. Even more than most politicians. Besides, if we had an election now there's a chance albeit slim, that he stays in because the opposition vote is split. And again, the minority will get their way over the majority. He's overplayed his hand and lost. Its sad that his last hope is for Labour to rescue him. And funny. I thought it was about the will of the people? You're the one said the EU elections can't be taken as an expression of public will on Brexit. Why is a general election different now? You know what is a good measure of what people want from Brexit? A referendum. So, Boris puts an election before parliament, including date. Parliament can then vote on it. As previously stated i prefer a peoples vote, a GE where the people can so their gratitude, I mean you'll end up with a NEW Parliament of 100% remain MP's Wont you as people show their gratitude. a Referendum wont show you this. im sure you'll agree, a GE election is best place to show this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted September 5, 2019 #424 Share Posted September 5, 2019 2 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said: @itsnotoutthere So, have a second referendum so everyone knows it wasn't against the will of the majority of your population to kick you out on October 31st, without any deal. Any elections you might or might not have won't change that. No one cares, 'scuse me bluntness, except you, of course. A referendum could postpone the booting out date, and what do you have to worry? It will be 104% for Brexit, judging by the propaganda in this thread. There are two problems with a 2nd referendum: 1. The remain MPs are trying to remove the No-Deal option which prevents a large chunk of the UK population voting for what they want. Thats a stitch-up. In fact, I suspect it would result in rioting or worse. A fair referendum has to include all 3 options or it wont be seen as legitimate by at least 17 million people. 2. Bearing in mind MPs have decided not to respect the result of the Brexit referendum they will likely discard the result of the 2nd referendum too if it doesnt produce the remain result they want. I dont want to see my country torn apart, I dont want to see the death of Democracy, and therefore the only possible way forward is a General Election. Either that or the Queen says 52% of people voted to leave the EU (without a customs union explicitly stated), they are the majority, this is a Democracy, therefore that is the end of the matter. Any MP that fights it can spend 12 months in the slammer reflecting over their subversion of Democracy. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duke Wellington Posted September 5, 2019 #425 Share Posted September 5, 2019 (edited) Let all the leavers gather around and chant for a comet strike! All so Boris can declare a national emergency and force through Brexit! Lets go further and pray it hits Corbyn on the head, that red traitor! And maybe one or two fragments nip Setton, Captain Risky, and Annoying Helen. Sorry folks, you are irritating lol. Edited September 5, 2019 by RabidMongoose 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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