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I’m Scared of Climate Change


Nefer-Ankhe

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@Doug1029 I remember the 80's is when the "save a tree, use plastic" campaign was started, which was misrepresented as an environmental ad, but I suspected it was actually the petroleum companies that started it.  I knew back then because I lived in a paper mill town that most of the paper used in the U.S. is not destroying pristine forests.  The owners of the trees sold to or owned by the paper mills are farmed, any acreage of trees taken down to use for paper are replanted and those trees are then used 10 or 20 years later, depending on the type of forest the paper companies are keeping.  There has been a battle waging against us and the environment for a long time.  The knowledge or understanding that CO2 could poison the atmosphere was there but anyone trying to do anything about it has always had to go up against the petroleum industry.

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1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

@Doug1029 I remember the 80's is when the "save a tree, use plastic" campaign was started, which was misrepresented as an environmental ad, but I suspected it was actually the petroleum companies that started it.  I knew back then because I lived in a paper mill town that most of the paper used in the U.S. is not destroying pristine forests.  The owners of the trees sold to or owned by the paper mills are farmed, any acreage of trees taken down to use for paper are replanted and those trees are then used 10 or 20 years later, depending on the type of forest the paper companies are keeping.  There has been a battle waging against us and the environment for a long time.  The knowledge or understanding that CO2 could poison the atmosphere was there but anyone trying to do anything about it has always had to go up against the petroleum industry.

Also, a great deal of paper chips come from sawmill waste.  In a sense, they are being recycled.

Some types of paper require specific mixes of short (hardwood) and long (softwood) fiber.  A mill's needs depend on the product it is making.  Thus, requiring mills to use a certain amount of recycled paper means that some mills could not make their products and would have to shut down.  Those are mainly "book" papers, so I doubt we're going to see such a requirement imposed any time soon, if ever.  I would say it is a bad idea to require the use of specific amounts of recycled paper - let the market decide how much the mill uses.  The paper company will choose the cheapest source.

There's a better use for waste paper:  bury it in the ground in a dry landfill where it won't decompose.  We are digging carbon out of the ground.  Why not put some back in?  And what's wrong with writing something on it before we bury it?

 

Did you live in Snowflake, Arizona by any chance?

Doug

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19 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

Also, a great deal of paper chips come from sawmill waste.  In a sense, they are being recycled.

Some types of paper require specific mixes of short (hardwood) and long (softwood) fiber.  A mill's needs depend on the product it is making.  Thus, requiring mills to use a certain amount of recycled paper means that some mills could not make their products and would have to shut down.  Those are mainly "book" papers, so I doubt we're going to see such a requirement imposed any time soon, if ever.  I would say it is a bad idea to require the use of specific amounts of recycled paper - let the market decide how much the mill uses.  The paper company will choose the cheapest source.

There's a better use for waste paper:  bury it in the ground in a dry landfill where it won't decompose.  We are digging carbon out of the ground.  Why not put some back in?  And what's wrong with writing something on it before we bury it?

 

Did you live in Snowflake, Arizona by any chance?

Doug

I agree.  I compost all the paper I have to shred for work but most of it is note paper first, after I finish using it for what ever project notes. 

I live in New Mexico.  I have been to Snowflake a long time ago but never lived there.

There are a lot of products that have "100% - 10% recycled paper" on the label and I tend to buy that when it is available.  There is a market for it nowadays.

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4 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I live in New Mexico.  I have been to Snowflake a long time ago but never lived there.

I worked in Cimarron for a summer.  Thought about applying for a job in Chama, but it didn't pay too well, so I didn't apply.  Had to go down to Chama to get to the Rio Chamita Ranch where I had a forest management project going on.  Also went down to Albuquerque for Christmas one year.  Saw the luminaries - quite impressive.  Thinking about retiring to Chama.

Doug

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1 minute ago, Doug1o29 said:

I worked in Cimarron for a summer.  Thought about applying for a job in Chama, but it didn't pay too well, so I didn't apply.  Had to go down to Chama to get to the Rio Chamita Ranch where I had a forest management project going on.  Also went down to Albuquerque for Christmas one year.  Saw the luminaries - quite impressive.  Thinking about retiring to Chama.

Doug

It is pretty in Chama.  Still wide open spaces and breathing room.  I have grown up around Albuquerque and live there now, though I have property in the east mountains. a half a mile from the edge of the Cibola forest.

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I wonder if Obama still believes his climate change narrative. He bought a beach front home at Martha's Vineyard for $15 million.

Isn't climate change suppose to raise sea levels and flood the coastlines?

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12 minutes ago, Hawken said:

I wonder if Obama still believes his climate change narrative. He bought a beach front home at Martha's Vineyard for $15 million.

Isn't climate change suppose to raise sea levels and flood the coastlines?

At their financial level homes are disposable. Enjoy the view while you can and then retreat to your lodge in the mountains to collect the insurance money on the beach house.

 

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27 minutes ago, Hawken said:

I wonder if Obama still believes his climate change narrative. He bought a beach front home at Martha's Vineyard for $15 million.

Isn't climate change suppose to raise sea levels and flood the coastlines?

Yes, but slowly.  He's got lots of time to find a tRUMP supporter to sell it to at a nice profit.

Doug

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13 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

At their financial level homes are disposable. Enjoy the view while you can and then retreat to your lodge in the mountains to collect the insurance money on the beach house.

 

I wonder if insurance companies will pay for missing beach houses by the time the oceans rise enough to make that happen.  :lol:  Better check your policy and make sure there is no "acts of god" clause or in a few years "climate change" clause.

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Just now, Desertrat56 said:

I wonder if insurance companies will pay for missing beach houses by the time the oceans rise enough to make that happen.  :lol:  Better check your policy and make sure there is no "acts of god" clause or in a few years "climate change" clause.

Well not for folks like us , im sure the Obamas are owed some back scratching though :o

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9 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

Yes, but slowly.  He's got lots of time to find a tRUMP supporter to sell it to at a nice profit.

Doug

But AOC said the world is going to end in 12 years.:w00t:

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10 minutes ago, Hawken said:

But AOC said the world is going to end in 12 years.:w00t:

If she said that, she's got it wrong.  That (more or less) is when we reach two degrees of warming.  After that, it will be increasingly difficult to bring warming under control and failure to do so will produce gradually increasing consequences.  But the world won't end in 2030.

Doug

 

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23 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I wonder if insurance companies will pay for missing beach houses by the time the oceans rise enough to make that happen.  :lol:  Better check your policy and make sure there is no "acts of god" clause or in a few years "climate change" clause.

Folks along the south shore of Lake Erie already have that problem.  Every time the water level rises, more houses fall into the lake.  The insurance companies just take the risk that it won't happen to too many houses.

Doug

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Just now, Doug1o29 said:

Folks along the south shore of Lake Erie already have that problem.  Every time the water level rises, more houses fall into the lake.  The insurance companies just take the risk that it won't happen to too many houses.

Doug

So they are getting their insurance?  Good.  I hope it continues, but I am guessing it won't if the insurance companies can get away with it.  I noticed in Texas insurance companies are monitored and made to adhere to anything they put in the policy but in New Mexico, I had flood insurance in my policy and the company told me they did not have to pay because I was in New Mexico.  So I asked why was it in my policy and they said it was standard. 

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3 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

So they are getting their insurance?  Good.  I hope it continues, but I am guessing it won't if the insurance companies can get away with it.  I noticed in Texas insurance companies are monitored and made to adhere to anything they put in the policy but in New Mexico, I had flood insurance in my policy and the company told me they did not have to pay because I was in New Mexico.  So I asked why was it in my policy and they said it was standard. 

In Ohio they know several years ahead when the water level will be going up so I guess the insurance companies figure they'll make some money until then.  Also, it is not a "flood."  The lake undercuts the cliff and the house falls in.  Along most oceans, it would be wave/storm damage that destroys the building, so different terms may apply

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2 hours ago, Doug1o29 said:

Also, a great deal of paper chips come from sawmill waste.  In a sense, they are being recycled.

Some types of paper require specific mixes of short (hardwood) and long (softwood) fiber.  A mill's needs depend on the product it is making.  Thus, requiring mills to use a certain amount of recycled paper means that some mills could not make their products and would have to shut down.  Those are mainly "book" papers, so I doubt we're going to see such a requirement imposed any time soon, if ever.  I would say it is a bad idea to require the use of specific amounts of recycled paper - let the market decide how much the mill uses.  The paper company will choose the cheapest source.

Working for Weyerhaeuser, we let very little waste leave our plant site.  As Doug says, the chips are used in paper, non-chippable waste is used to generate power, sawdust was used to make particleboard or presto-logs  We made broom handles out of small edgings from larger boards.

The paper rmill on the plant site was a Kraft plant, making brown paper for cardboard boxes and such.  Those plants can use a lot of  recycled paper and cardboard.  They do not use as  much chlorine to whiten the final product either, hence the ubiquitous brown of cardboard boxes.  There was also a pulp mill making a raw material for other paper mills. Very many of the large paper producers have a spectrum of different plants for different end uses.  Some can take a lot of recycled paper and cardboard.  Our plant took cardboard from truck and rail deliveries.  That was back in the 80's mainly because it made good economic sense.  

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4 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I remember the 80's is when the "save a tree, use plastic" campaign was started, which was misrepresented as an environmental ad, but I suspected it was actually the petroleum companies that started it.  I knew back then because I lived in a paper mill town that most of the paper used in the U.S. is not destroying pristine forests.  The owners of the trees sold to or owned by the paper mills are farmed, any acreage of trees taken down to use for paper are replanted and those trees are then used 10 or 20 years later, depending on the type of forest the paper companies are keeping.  There has been a battle waging against us and the environment for a long time.  The knowledge or understanding that CO2 could poison the atmosphere was there but anyone trying to do anything about it has always had to go up against the petroleum industry.

Yes indeed Desertrat.  Plantation trees are used for a lot of paper production grown on a short cycle like a crop.  I got to visit a couple of plantations in Denmark, but it  was the same here, all of the trees are the same species, all the same size, all planted in neat rows on flat land.  That is why a lot of the industry moved south, flatter land and a shorter growing season.  A twenty year cycle in the south would take 30-40 years in the Pacific Northwest.  Companies with their holdings here have experimented with poplar as a fast growing alternative to alder and hemlock. Lighter woods are preferred because they require less bleaching.

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14 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Yes indeed Desertrat.  Plantation trees are used for a lot of paper production grown on a short cycle like a crop.  I got to visit a couple of plantations in Denmark, but it  was the same here, all of the trees are the same species, all the same size, all planted in neat rows on flat land.  That is why a lot of the industry moved south, flatter land and a shorter growing season.  A twenty year cycle in the south would take 30-40 years in the Pacific Northwest.  Companies with their holdings here have experimented with poplar as a fast growing alternative to alder and hemlock. Lighter woods are preferred because they require less bleaching.

Your descriptions could be the plant at Hawesville, Kentucky.  It was Westvaco when I lived there.  I heard it was sold, but I don't remember who to.

Logging and sawmilling produce a lot of waste wood/chips.  Paper mills, where there's one within hauling distance, offer the best market.

Doug

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2 hours ago, Doug1o29 said:

Logging and sawmilling produce a lot of waste wood/chips.  Paper mills, where there's one within hauling distance, offer the best market.

My only beef with it is that monoculture forests are susceptible to being decimated by a single disease or pest.   Not the best wildlife and biodiversity reserve either.

Weyerhaeuser scientists were a little wary in internal discussions that the cloned "Super tree" forests might fall prey to an unexpected calamity.  At the time the nurseries were full of hundreds of thousands of identical seedlings.  So far, that bullet has been dodged.

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4 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

My only beef with it is that monoculture forests are susceptible to being decimated by a single disease or pest.   Not the best wildlife and biodiversity reserve either.

Weyerhaeuser scientists were a little wary in internal discussions that the cloned "Super tree" forests might fall prey to an unexpected calamity.  At the time the nurseries were full of hundreds of thousands of identical seedlings.  So far, that bullet has been dodged.

The nurseries I have worked with obtain most of their seed from wild trees.  There is a tree improvement program that seeks to propagate the best-quality trees from the best-quality stands, but that's only two or three genes.  The rest of the seedling's compliment are naturally-occuring genes.

Clones don't work very well in forestry.  Trees have to survive everything that might happen to them for at least the next century.  That's going to take a lot of genetic variability to handle.

And wild trees produce chips just as good as those from clones.

Doug

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34 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

The nurseries I have worked with obtain most of their seed from wild trees.  There is a tree improvement program that seeks to propagate the best-quality trees from the best-quality stands, but that's only two or three genes.  The rest of the seedling's compliment are naturally-occuring genes.

Clones don't work very well in forestry.  Trees have to survive everything that might happen to them for at least the next century.  That's going to take a lot of genetic variability to handle.

And wild trees produce chips just as good as those from clones.

True enough.  In my first days for Weyco, they left some superior "seeder" trees to reforest around them.  We hired kids to bring back cones from specific stands of trees.  Then the clone idea took hold, The best of the best and always reliable.  Now because of the very problems you mentioned, clones are looked upon as a risky strategy.

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  • 4 weeks later...

We insiders want you true believers scared.  The more anxiety this issue creates in you the more we are able to control your minds and habits.  You are becoming become putty in our hands.  Next we will suggest that there is no hope of getting the problem under control and that the best option for you is to end your miserable existence.  Population control is the only way grasshoppers.  Trust your controllers.

 

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Watch these Willie Soon and The Ronans The climate change alarmist push is a Marxist movement to put wealth and power into a handful of people in order to to micro manage everyone on the planet. Al Gore actually alluded to this once.They do not let peers or real climate scientists with real data challenge them. They have lots and lots of money behind them. "Death rides a pale horse" Qoute from Revelations>> in Ancient Hebrew the word pale actually means Light Green!! You are being lied to on a massive scale.

CO2 and Methane does not I repeat does NOT retain heat more than a few milliseconds it, does not form a "blanket" around the earth that keeps heat in. Some of the temperature data is extremely flawed as some of the sensors are in areas where the sun is beating down on pavement and structures adding more heat to the thermometer places like this is only about 10% of of the whole world therefore cannot reflect real world heat mapping. It snowed at my house a few days ago.

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On 10/8/2019 at 8:09 AM, tortugabob said:

We insiders want you true believers scared.  The more anxiety this issue creates in you the more we are able to control your minds and habits.  You are becoming become putty in our hands.  Next we will suggest that there is no hope of getting the problem under control and that the best option for you is to end your miserable existence.  Population control is the only way grasshoppers.  Trust your controllers.

What he said!!

 

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5 hours ago, cerberusxp said:

It snowed at my house a few days ago.

Those stupid climate scientists spending their times taking measurements around the globe, when they could just get the same data from your house. :whistle:

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