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Eldorado

Trump to keep US troops in Afghanistan

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Eldorado

"The U.S. has about 14,000 troops in Afghanistan, alongside international troops, to advise and assist Afghan defense forces and to fight extremist groups like the Islamic State and al-Qaida.

"Trump said the bulk of these could be withdrawn, but stressed that the U.S. will maintain some kind of troop presence in Afghanistan.

"“You have to keep a presence,” he said, adding that the U.S. would be reducing troops “very substantially.”"

Full story at Defense News dot com: https://www.defensenews.com/congress/2019/08/29/trump-says-8600-us-troops-will-stay-after-afghanistan-withdrawal/


"US to keep 8,600 troops in Afghanistan after Taliban deal"
And at The Hill: https://thehill.com/policy/defense/459281-trump-us-to-drawdown-to-8600-troops-in-afghanistan


Some time ago:

 

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aztek
Posted (edited)

i do not see where he promised to bring every single one home,   he just said bring them home, in general.  it is not entirely up to him, he knows it, i know it, and everyone  who knows bare basics how it works, and can add 2 and 2 knows it as well.,    the story is another liberal puke. 

Edited by aztek
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Gromdor

The truly sad thing about the Afghan peace deal is that we are just giving it back to the Taliban. 

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aztek
Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

The truly sad thing about the Afghan peace deal is that we are just giving it back to the Taliban. 

yea pretty sad, all those poppy fields we were guarding will be burned down by taliban, and there will be only fraction left just like before we invaded the country.  really sad.  and why did we go there in a first place? because 15+ saudis  commited 911?

Edited by aztek
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Gromdor
35 minutes ago, aztek said:

yea pretty sad, all those poppy fields we were guarding will be burned down by taliban, and there will be only fraction left just like before we invaded the country.  really sad.  and why did we go there in a first place? because 15+ saudis  commited 911?

Exactly,  Pat Tillman and 2300 other dead Americans and 20,000 wounded for......?

Heck, the number is still growing: https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-army/2019/08/30/us-troop-dies-during-combat-ops-in-afghanistan/

Ever look a vet in the eye when he finds out that his patriotism, sacrifices, and friend's deaths were for nothing? 

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aztek
Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Exactly,  Pat Tillman and 2300 other dead Americans and 20,000 wounded for......?

Heck, the number is still growing: https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-army/2019/08/30/us-troop-dies-during-combat-ops-in-afghanistan/

Ever look a vet in the eye when he finds out that his patriotism, sacrifices, and friend's deaths were for nothing? 

do you not think vets know exactly why they are there, and what is really going on?    and that it has very little to do with patriotism, and everything to do with interests of federal gvmnt.  i was under impression that this is obvious even to kids

Edited by aztek
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Gromdor
1 hour ago, aztek said:

do you not think vets know exactly why they are there, and what is really going on?    and that it has very little to do with patriotism, and everything to do with interests of federal gvmnt.  i was under impression that this is obvious even to kids

Yup, and those Federal Government interests are what gives their sacrifice meaning.  Nothing stabs you in the heart more than to have your country just change it's mind and render a few thousand people's lost lives meaningless.  Losing a war would be less painful than that. 

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aztek
8 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Yup, and those Federal Government interests are what gives their sacrifice meaning.  Nothing stabs you in the heart more than to have your country just change it's mind and render a few thousand people's lost lives meaningless.  Losing a war would be less painful than that. 

do you realize interests of federal gvmnt are NOT same as interest of american people?   

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Agent0range
19 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Yup, and those Federal Government interests are what gives their sacrifice meaning.  Nothing stabs you in the heart more than to have your country just change it's mind and render a few thousand people's lost lives meaningless.  Losing a war would be less painful than that. 

Personally, I feel that the mission at hand when you hit the ground on a platoon level is far different from the large "mission" of the government.  We had our area of operations, and our general mission was to root out Al-Qaeda from the neighborhoods.  Doing that for a year, going home, and coming back a year later to a better place does give you a certain sense of satisfaction, and mission accomplishment.  Our brigade was not there to look for WMDs, Saddam, or any of that mess.  That's how I find solace in my situation.  

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GLCsector3295

Well Obama promised to close Gitmo.... and how did that work out ?

All presidents " promise " to reduce troop size over seas, it rarely happens and it never ends to a full with drawl of troops.  Everyone wants the US out of the Middle East, problem is the rest of the free world constantly is more than eager to let the USA hold the bag of problems. Where is the U.N and their forces ? Busy doing what ? Busy not fighting. Busy letting Russia take by force part of the Ukraine , busy sitting on its thumbs while Iran threatens everyone, busy taking a nap while N.Korea keeps threatening everyone with in range. Or the conflict in Syria. Point is the Middle East is seen as souly the problem of the USA.

It has just become an unwelcome norm now, that once terrorists or others bent on war start a conflict, it becomes the soul problem of the USA no matter which party is in power. Troops get sent in, and in todays world end up staying indefinitely while the main fighting forces get rotated or brought back to the states, other US troops are put in, to maintain a presence and for training.  It will be an extremely long time before the USA sees all troops removed from the Middle East, if ever.  Once permanent bases were established , it is a done deal.   Same with Gitmo, it is a well established military base, it isn't going any where.

I think the biggest threat, is how fast Islamic terrorists would regroup once the US leaves. Right now there is a good presence of US Troops, keeping things at bay but all it is really doing is  having terrorists shift from being in the middle east to other areas of the world. Flush out one rats nest and they move. In the end it just feels like one big whack a mole game that just can not be won. An giving up just isn't an option.

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Hankenhunter
5 hours ago, aztek said:

yea pretty sad, all those poppy fields we were guarding will be burned down by taliban, and there will be only fraction left just like before we invaded the country.  really sad.  and why did we go there in a first place? because 15+ saudis  commited 911?

Guess who's still giving the Saudi's preferential treatment. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/top-11-favors-trump-administration-has-done-saudi-arabia-n1026926&ved=2ahUKEwi7prLmg6zkAhV1NX0KHW0SDEUQFjAAegQIAhAB&usg=AOvVaw1Z4w5IL8cO3TA-FHc3qaAG

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Hankenhunter
3 hours ago, Gromdor said:

Yup, and those Federal Government interests are what gives their sacrifice meaning.  Nothing stabs you in the heart more than to have your country just change it's mind and render a few thousand people's lost lives meaningless.  Losing a war would be less painful than that. 

Not to mention all the farked up vets getting farked over by a gutted institution that is supposed to take care of them when they return damaged by a ginned up war.

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Tatetopa
1 hour ago, GLCsector3295 said:

I think the biggest threat, is how fast Islamic terrorists would regroup once the US leaves. Right now there is a good presence of US Troops, keeping things at bay but all it is really doing is  having terrorists shift from being in the middle east to other areas of the world. Flush out one rats nest and they move. In the end it just feels like one big whack a mole game that just can not be won. An giving up just isn't an option.

Why bother then?  Why is giving up not  an option and just  telling the rest of the world to do it themselves?

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GLCsector3295
6 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Why bother then?  Why is giving up not  an option and just  telling the rest of the world to do it themselves?

Because the rest of the free world has already proven they do not have the means, resources or the stomach / nerve to take a long haul approach to addressing global terrorism. An when good people give up, then what is left is a giant vacuum for evil to come swooping in.

It is a job that has to be done and an obligation, if other nations took the lead, the USA would easily take a back seat. An a much welcome back seat, but like it or not the USA is the police, the trash man , and the doctor. Sometimes with welcome and open arms by others , most of the time not. 

The real problem though isn't the USA meddling or being too long in one place, it is evil, and terrorism.   Evil people distorting things due to either ignorance, a stone age distorted religious mind set a mix of both and probably mental issues as well, well an then economic issues, jealousy of what others have. An these issues and more just won't ever be fully solved. The best we can hope for is minimal flare ups , be it on a global scale, be it at home in the USA with mass shootings, take away the guns and then it will be something else, mass bombings, or drug cartels trying to take hold of neighborhoods, serial killers ( who don't use guns ) .

There isn't going to be a " utopia " any time soon.  We just hope for the best, and plan for and expect the worse, and hope we can accept our responsibilities in life as individuals and as a nation. An the military is on the front lines on a global scale in keeping foreign problems in the foreign places they originate. If the USA just said F it,  eventually these rats that mass up every so often in the middle east, would give it a go here in the States,  so it becomes pick your poison, do you want the military fighting over seas, or here on US soil.  An then pick your poison again on how long you want the fighting to last, do you say well, get it below a certain percentage and pack it in, and then wait till it blows up again, or do you stay and keep monitoring things indefinitely so again it isn't in your own backyard.  All again with the mindset that other countries are just not stepping up to bat how the US does. If other countries pulled their weight, the USA wouldn't have to do so much and make up for their slack.

 

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Tatetopa
1 hour ago, GLCsector3295 said:

If the USA just said F it,  eventually these rats that mass up every so often in the middle east, would give it a go here in the States, 

I've always believed that but now I am not so sure.  Why would they and how could they?  It is a lot easier to drive down the road in a convoy of Land Cruisers and pickups with 50 cals mounted in the back and terrorize a small village than it is to get to America with that sort of force and not be quickly opposed. Fighting terrorists in their own countries and in neighborhoods of sympathetic people is hard.  Terrorists that did make it here would not have that advantage.   Average armed Americans might take them out even before the military got there.  I think we might be kidding ourselves about how indispensable  or even how useful our efforts in the Middle East are.  

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Trelane
7 hours ago, aztek said:

do you not think vets know exactly why they are there, and what is really going on?    and that it has very little to do with patriotism, and everything to do with interests of federal gvmnt.  i was under impression that this is obvious even to kids

There are cascading effects of policy. The different avenues of military operations and detention operations for different adversaries is complex to say the least.

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Manwon Lender
6 hours ago, Agent0range said:

Personally, I feel that the mission at hand when you hit the ground on a platoon level is far different from the large "mission" of the government.  We had our area of operations, and our general mission was to root out Al-Qaeda from the neighborhoods.  Doing that for a year, going home, and coming back a year later to a better place does give you a certain sense of satisfaction, and mission accomplishment.  Our brigade was not there to look for WMDs, Saddam, or any of that mess.  That's how I find solace in my situation.  

I totally agree with your view, that is really what is important. There is nothing like seeing changes that never would have occurred without our presents. 

Best post so far in this thread.

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Manwon Lender
1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

I've always believed that but now I am not so sure.  Why would they and how could they?  It is a lot easier to drive down the road in a convoy of Land Cruisers and pickups with 50 cals mounted in the back and terrorize a small village than it is to get to America with that sort of force and not be quickly opposed. Fighting terrorists in their own countries and in neighborhoods of sympathetic people is hard.  Terrorists that did make it here would not have that advantage.   Average armed Americans might take them out even before the military got there.  I think we might be kidding ourselves about how indispensable  or even how useful our efforts in the Middle East are.  

You think fighting terrorist in their own countries in their neighborhoods is hard. No it really isn't so hard, and it's the best way to do it. Killing them in their countries on their streets is best for all involved. Let their familes see the hell their beliefs have brought down upon them and let them also deal with the destruction of their homeland. 

The sort of terrorist force you outlined in your post isn't what they would ever plan to achieve. In addition It is not when terrorists come to America, you can bet they are already here. The question is what will they  do next, a dirty bomb, a biological release, whatever they do will not be small in nature. To date our Government has stopped many terrorist attacks, hopefully that will continue into the future. 

But I doubt that will last forever, we can only hope that it does

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and then
1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Why would they and how could they? 

Do you think it impossible for mortars to be brought over that southern border?  Do you have any idea the amount of damage such a weapon could do to oil refineries and our electrical grid at large?  At some point I believe we WILL be savaged by cell activity from Iran or the wider M.E.  Hundreds, maybe thousands dead or wounded.  Safety is just an illusion and it will be dispelled at some point.  When that happens we will have to absolutely go ROMAN on some countries and to hell with public opinion.

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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Gromdor said:

Exactly,  Pat Tillman and 2300 other dead Americans and 20,000 wounded for......?

Heck, the number is still growing: https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-army/2019/08/30/us-troop-dies-during-combat-ops-in-afghanistan/

Ever look a vet in the eye when he finds out that his patriotism, sacrifices, and friend's deaths were for nothing? 

Veterans don't beleive their sacrifices are for nothing, I have know idea who's eyes you were looking into. If you don't beleive me go into your local VFW and make this same statement to those present, I doubt anyone will buy you a beer.:whistle:

Oh and by the way, if you find the courage do it be ready run. :yes:

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, aztek said:

yea pretty sad, all those poppy fields we were guarding will be burned down by taliban, and there will be only fraction left just like before we invaded the country.  really sad.  and why did we go there in a first place? because 15+ saudis  commited 911?

I am not surprised at your concern for the Poppy fields:yes:

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Phaeton80
2 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

You think fighting terrorist in their own countries in their neighborhoods is hard. No it really isn't so hard, and it's the best way to do it. Killing them in their countries on their streets is best for all involved. Let their familes see the hell their beliefs have brought down upon them and let them also deal with the destruction of their homeland. 

The sort of terrorist force you outlined in your post isn't what they would ever plan to achieve. In addition It is not when terrorists come to America, you can bet they are already here. The question is what will they  do next, a dirty bomb, a biological release, whatever they do will not be small in nature. To date our Government has stopped many terrorist attacks, hopefully that will continue into the future. 

But I doubt that will last forever, we can only hope that it does


I personally think the 'we fight terrorists in their own countries, if we dont theyll fight us at home' is utter up side down nonsense. The unwanted presence in their nations, now and in the past - regarding US presence as an occupation force - is one of the main reasons these people are motivated to act against the US. Its the killing of their peers and family loosely ID't as terrorist, its the employment of drones killing everybody at funerals and marriage ceremonies, the 'collateral damage' as well as the poppyfield exploitation (thats right, exploitation), acting as a foreign ruler which spurs these people on in their hate against the US.

As long as youre in the ME, as long as the US continues to force their wildly deadly - arrogant presence in the region, you will cultivate terrorism.. guaranteed. Im not stating anything thats not an open door here either, any American would do thesame if it were their nation being (partly) occupied by foreign troops, their family members being 'colleterally damaged', if their nation was delved into chaos by a foreign military force trying to force, say, communism.

Besides the rationalisation about the continued military presence being in favor of fighting terrorism (while these interventions and continued presence does the exact opposite), I see a lot of rationalisations concerning the fact Trump flip flopped on his election promise (like every president before him). All good and well to jump in to defend 'your president, your hero, your champion', but lets not continue to fool ourselves in supposing this man is truely different than any of the puppets that went before him.

 

 

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Manwon Lender
2 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:


I personally think the 'we fight terrorists in their own countries, if we dont theyll fight us at home' is utter up side down nonsense. The unwanted presence in their nations, now and in the past - regarding US presence as an occupation force - is one of the main reasons these people are motivated to act against the US. Its the killing of their peers and family loosely ID't as terrorist, its the employment of drones killing everybody at funerals and marriage ceremonies, the 'collateral damage' as well as the poppyfield exploitation (thats right, exploitation), acting as a foreign ruler which spurs these people on in their hate against the US.

As long as youre in the ME, as long as the US continues to force their wildly deadly - arrogant presence in the region, you will cultivate terrorism.. guaranteed. Im not stating anything thats not an open door here either, any American would do thesame if it were their nation being (partly) occupied by foreign troops, their family members being 'colleterally damaged', if their nation was delved into chaos by a foreign military force trying to force, say, communism.

Besides the rationalisation about the continued military presence being in favor of fighting terrorism (while these interventions and continued presence does the exact opposite), I see a lot of rationalisations concerning the fact Trump flip flopped on his election promise (like every president before him). All good and well to jump in to defend 'your president, your hero, your champion', but lets not continue to fool ourselves in supposing this man is truely different than any of the puppets that went before him.

 

 

The war on terrorism started back in late 1960 or early 1970s. It started with them Hijacking aircraft, and attacking Olympic Games. Through the years war on terror has intensified, leading us to today. Whether we leave the Middle East or not doesn't matter these religious fanatics will not stop until anyone who doesn't follow their religious beliefs are dead. They have stated openly that the only salvation an infidel has is to convert to Islam.

So with that terrorism isn't about their territory, it's actually about a religious belief. So like I have said it's better to kill as many as possible where they live. While I agree this will encourage some additional followers, it will also discourage just as many.  Because the death and destruction they have brought upon themselves will cause many to look to an alternative to violence.

JIMO and that's something you or anyone else will ever change.

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Phaeton80
Posted (edited)

Thats a grave oversimplification to defend your position. You talk as though were dealing with a strongly organised single entity which was active since the 70'ies, and this single entity maintains the dogma 'kill all infidels if they dont convert to Islam', ignoring the political context in which the terrorist acts were committed.. The Olympic games attack wasnt because they wanted to kill infidels, like you claim is generally the case, but as a response to the Palestinian situation. Al Qaeda was helped come into full fruition by way of US support, using its precursor as a proxy during the cold war era.. It turned against them after the US started wars in their backyard. ISIS was spurred on, thrown into existence through the acts committed in Iraq, where order was replaced with chaos.. where all the Ba'ath officials were thrown into the arms of these extremists, making them a professional, hierarchical and knowledgable organisation.

The US did thesame with the politicized, subversive, Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.. I can go on and on with these examples.. evenmore; the US main regional allie - Saudi Arabia - is the ideological and financial homeland of the Wahhabi school of thought.. which is the fundament of the ISIS we know today.

It is pure unadulterated intellectual lazyness to simplify and misrepresent the situation with the generlizing terms you used here. It is extremely self defeating to boot; given youre not only completely ignoriong the rather significant US hand in all these developments, as well as putting the full blame on 'the others', youre also defending the continuation of the ME presence which will undoubtedly result in more US victims.

The only right thing for the US to do is to recognize the folly in their foreign policy, the socalled War on Terror, and start behaving like a helping hand in building these destroyed nations back up. Rebuildign infrastructure, hospitals, schools, mosques. Adressing the regional source of the particular underlying ideology and funding - Saudi Arabia - would be nice as well.

Edited by Phaeton80
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Manwon Lender
Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

Thats a grave oversimplification to defend your position. You talk as though were dealing with a strongly organised single entity which was active since the 70'ies, and this single entity maintains the dogma 'kill all infidels if they dont convert to Islam', ignoring the political context in which the terrorist acts were committed.. The Olympic games attack wasnt because they wanted to kill infidels, like you claim is generally the case, but as a response to the Palestinian situation. Al Qaeda was helped come into full fruition by way of US support, using its precursor as a proxy during the cold war era.. It turned against them after the US started wars in their backyard. ISIS was spurred on, thrown into existence through the acts committed in Iraq, where order was replaced with chaos.. where all the Ba'ath officials were thrown into the arms of these extremists, making them a professional, hierarchical and knowledgable organisation.

The US did thesame with the politicized, subversive, Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.. I can go on and on with these examples.. evenmore; the US main regional allie - Saudi Arabia - is the ideological and financial homeland of the Wahhabi school of thought.. which is the fundament of the ISIS we know today.

It is pure unadulterated intellectual lazyness to simplify and misrepresent the situation with the generlizing terms you used here. It is extremely self defeating to boot; given youre not only completely ignoriong the rather significant US hand in all these developments, as well as putting the full blame on 'the others', youre also defending the continuation of the ME presence which will undoubtedly result in more US victims.

The only right thing for the US to do is to recognize the folly in their foreign policy, the socalled War on Terror, and start behaving like a helping hand in building these destroyed nations back up. Rebuildign infrastructure, hospitals, schools, mosques. Adressing the regional source of the particular underlying ideology and funding - Saudi Arabia - would be nice as well.

Good luck with your belief system it doesnt work on the ground. Frankly I can tell you have never seen terrorism eye to eye. Your only exposure to this subject is in the media and online. This is very evident by the content you post on a regular basis. You should seriously go to the Middle East and get a taste of the life there. Because there you will learn what really breeds, and nurtures the belief system these people have.

While you are there you tell them how the Nations of the world have created the belief in terrorism they use for self preservation. You can also tell them you dont believe their religion has anything to do with it, in fact while your there insult muhammad to prove that you are correct. Now that will make your point validated, and it will also change your view from one that is sheltered to one with real experience.

Real experience is something you greatly lack, and no verbiage that you use will ever change that.

Edited by Manwon Lender
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