Trump to keep US troops in Afghanistan

[Gromdor]

5 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Veterans don't beleive their sacrifices are for nothing, I have know idea who's eyes you were looking into. If you don't beleive me go into your local VFW and make this same statement to those present, I doubt anyone will buy you a beer.

Oh and by the way, if you find the courage do it be ready run. 

  I've had a Vietnam veteran break down and start crying right in the middle of a construction site when the guys were talking about how a guy and his wife went to Saigon for their honeymoon.   He asked, "What was it like?" and they were, "It's all modern and touristy now."  That's when the vet said, "So my friends died for nothing." and started crying.  To say it was awkward would be an understatement.

 As for the VFW-  You might not recall, but I am a vet myself.  The local VFW's here in Iowa are on the decline so some of the older veterans try real hard to get myself and the younger vets to join.  It was almost all Korea and Vietnam era veterans.  The problem is that it is mostly a sad place, at least around here.  A bunch of forgotten old men drinking their time away with an occasional taco night.  That is a whole separate issue, however.  Needless to say, they never denied any vet a free beer that I ever saw. 

 

[Tatetopa]

11 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

You think fighting terrorist in their own countries in their neighborhoods is hard. No it really isn't so hard, and it's the best way to do it. Killing them in their countries on their streets is best for all involved. Let their familes see the hell their beliefs have brought down upon them and let them also deal with the destruction of their homeland. 

The sort of terrorist force you outlined in your post isn't what they would ever plan to achieve. In addition It is not when terrorists come to America, you can bet they are already here. The question is what will they  do next, a dirty bomb, a biological release, whatever they do will not be small in nature. To date our Government has stopped many terrorist attacks, hopefully that will continue into the future. 

But I doubt that will last forever, we can only hope that it does

Thanks.  I grew up in the era when guys I knew that were 2-3 years older were off to Vietnam.  We constantly heard that if we didn't stop communism there, it would be in our neighborhoods.  At the time I believed it.

I do think that when you are fighting a country whether that be Vietnam, Iraq, of Afghanistan, its far better to do it there than here.

Terrorists are not really terrorists in their own neighborhood though, they  become terrorists when they go to somebody else neighborhood. 

The ISIS force is not a nation state they come from a lot of different countries, but even in the Middle East, not many people want to live in their "caliphate "

As of December 2015, approximately 30,000 fighters from at least 85 countries had joined the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS). Although the great majority of ISIS recruits come from the Middle East and the Arab world, there are also many from Western nations, including most member-states of the European Union, as well as the United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. Thousands of fighters from Russia and hundreds from Indonesia and Tajikistan also have joined. ISIS's recruitment of foreign fighters is a global phenomenon that provides the organization with the human capital needed to operate outside the Middle East.

https://www.nber.org/digest/jun16/w22190.html

I do think terrorists are already here.   The Boston marathon bombers were Chechen brothers.  You do not always think about Chechnya  as a terrorist origin. Part of the Russian federation I think, as well as several other predominately Muslim  Republics. 

So here is my point Manwon, fighting in Syria or Iraq will not eliminate terrorists already in the US.   Fighting in Syria and Iraq should be shouldered by the people there. They will never be strong or self sufficient if they rely on us.

Meanwhile we need to focus major resources on finding and eliminating terrorist cells that are already in the US.

[GLCsector3295]

13 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I've always believed that but now I am not so sure.  Why would they and how could they?  It is a lot easier to drive down the road in a convoy of Land Cruisers and pickups with 50 cals mounted in the back and terrorize a small village than it is to get to America with that sort of force and not be quickly opposed. Fighting terrorists in their own countries and in neighborhoods of sympathetic people is hard.  Terrorists that did make it here would not have that advantage.   Average armed Americans might take them out even before the military got there.  I think we might be kidding ourselves about how indispensable  or even how useful our efforts in the Middle East are.  

There deff is no easy answer,  the idea of seeing what we saw in Iraq with ISIS in junk pick ups with 50 cals mounted on the back,  seeing that here in America, is a far fetched idea, but then again, I am sure the citizens in Iraq thought the same thing, more over  who would of ever thought Pearl Harbor could happen, or the first attack on the World Trade Center, which was probably a prelude to 9/11, and then the Boston bombing. If the conversation was, about the probability of those critical moments in history happening, a lot of people would still say nope, it probably wont happen.  I don't think we are going to ever see some kind of ship headed towards America with the ISIS flag flying and have some kind invasion ,but , it doesn't take much now to illegally enter the US an set up an operation, be it illegal drugs , a terrorist cell, or whatever. A couple of sleeper cells scattered across the US, operating silently , an then one day out of the blue we see a small convoy of those same trucks and flags flying like they did in Iraq, here on American soil, and it would be utter chaos before anyone got a grip on the situation, fear would be rampant before level heads actually gained control of the situation. It probably wouldn't last long, and would in the long run fail, but the damage would none the less be done and then who ever the terrorist group would be hypothetically; would easily claim a victory. I am not suggesting that the USA has some great track record in the Middle East, or that our nations military is indispensable, all I am really suggesting is that no one else in the world is or has ever stepped up to fight on the level that the USA has, and does on a constant basis.  Take that presence away in the Middle East, an it just naturally creates a vacuum waiting to be filled. An until Afghanistan stops relying on protection from the USA and puts on its big boy pants, creates a solid stable government, and a reliable and trust worthy police and military force, or the UN steps in to take over, I can't see the USA leaving.   An again it just comes down to picking ones poison , pack up an leave, and just come back when things hit the fan again, or stay and be a presence to keep things at bay. Neither answer is good.

An we see time an again politicians trying to negotiate  with the Taliban for some kind of peace, a blatant terrorist organization that is being treated as something that should be negotiated with on any level. An it is insane, negotiating with the Taliban, ISIS or any terrorist organization is lunacy, and only giving the nod that they are winning the objective of wearing down society so that they create a foothold to do more damage. Society doesn't negotiate with criminals to stop being criminals, or drug cartels to please stop in the name of peace. In fact the same comparison can be made for crimes on any level, do we just tell the police to take some time off because crime levels are down to an acceptable level. Or our justice system, are we supposed to look at how some prisons and jails are over crowded, and under staffed and say well, this didn't work, and close them down an let the inmates go free. Or the courts, that are packed to the brim, waiting for cases to be heard, just say well, we did our best, we cant solve them all in an orderly and timely manner, lets just dismiss it all and start over another time.

 

It just isn't practical to up an quit when things get hard, and it isn't practical to keep doing insane things that do not work an so people keep trying to make things better.

[Tatetopa]

11 hours ago, and then said:

Do you think it impossible for mortars to be brought over that southern border?  Do you have any idea the amount of damage such a weapon could do to oil refineries and our electrical grid at large?  At some point I believe we WILL be savaged by cell activity from Iran or the wider M.E.  Hundreds, maybe thousands dead or wounded.  Safety is just an illusion and it will be dispelled at some point.  When that happens we will have to absolutely go ROMAN on some countries and to hell with public opinion.

I think if you give narcos a mortar in exchange for smuggling three more across the border, they would gladly do it.  I can imagine the damage they might do.  I also believe you are correct, terrorist cells will strike the US again, whether that is more like the twin towers attack or the Boston marathon.  There is no safety.  The threat is real.  Where do we go from there?

I am looking for a logical connection between  our Middle East participation and the safety of the US.

Fighting in Syria or Iraq or Afghanistan will not lessen the threat on US soil from multinational terrorists, some of whom may already be living in the US.  We seem to be about to give Afghanistan back to the Taliban.

Border protection, NSA oversight of international communication, seizure of money transfers, police or military intelligence and raids  are all critical to protecting our country.  Maybe those are better places to put manpower and money than in Syria if our goal is to prevent major terrorist attacks in the US.  We may never be 100% successful, but we might be 99% successful.

We can not bring peace and safety to the Middle East but we sure better try our hardest to prevent that scenario here.

If your aim is protection of Israel or to tamp down Iran, those are other matters.  I am not sure our military presence in the Middle East furthers those goals either.

By your comment about going ROMAN, I assume you mean there is a country like Iran to fight rather than a scattered group of people from many countries.  Even that can be done from more remote bases.  I don't think you have ever advocated a military land invasion of Iran.  If it can be done from the air, how close do we need to be?

[Phaeton80]

Quote

9 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Good luck with your belief system it doesnt work on the ground. Frankly I can tell you have never seen terrorism eye to eye. Your only exposure to this subject is in the media and online. This is very evident by the content you post on a regular basis. You should seriously go to the Middle East and get a taste of the life there. Because there you will learn what really breeds, and nurtures the belief system these people have.

While you are there you tell them how the Nations of the world have created the belief in terrorism they use for self preservation. You can also tell them you dont believe their religion has anything to do with it, in fact while your there insult muhammad to prove that you are correct. Now that will make your point validated, and it will also change your view from one that is sheltered to one with real experience.

Real experience is something you greatly lack, and no verbiage that you use will ever change that.

 

So besides painting with a three mile brush regarding this excessively complex and multifacetted subject, you think it wise to presume all sorts of things about me, where Ive been, what Ive experienced, and what I base my info on. Sweet.

The causality at play here is overly evident for anyone with eyes to see. To claim a continued presence - after reducing several ME countries to a cinder, complete chaos, terrorist breedinggrounds under the guise of humanitarianism - is needed to ward off terrorism is not unlike the rationalisation Israel uses in Palestinian context. First invade & oppress, and when the people (increasingly) organise to take up arms against the invader, such re- actions are used to rationalise further occupation. Wonder how Americans would react if such logic was employed against them.

Furthermore, the simple fact you use the terms 'it started with them hijacking.. ' is a clearcut indication you dont have a clue what youre talking about, neither the context of these acts, nor the (completely different and unrelated) groups who committed them throughout the years. You know for some it seems terribly arrogant to blame Islam as a whole, or the local people themselves, for 'terrorism' after leaving an unprecedented trail of destruction throughout the ME, thereby literally cultivating terrorism on numerous levels, and while the US supports and arms the main source of the Sunni Wahhabi (AQ, ISIS) school of thought, as well as its miltants (in another effort to oust another ME head of state). Never even recognizing a single iota of your own hand in all this. In fact, if one would set out from the getgo to create a spike / bloom of international (Sunni) terrorism, one wouldnt have gone about it in a much different way than the US has done the past couple of decades, until this very day even. Its nothing short of mindnumbing really.

Regardless, a fine evening to you sir.

[Edit: add quote]

Edited August 31, 2019 by Phaeton80

[Grim Reaper 6]

8 hours ago, Gromdor said:

  I've had a Vietnam veteran break down and start crying right in the middle of a construction site when the guys were talking about how a guy and his wife went to Saigon for their honeymoon.   He asked, "What was it like?" and they were, "It's all modern and touristy now."  That's when the vet said, "So my friends died for nothing." and started crying.  To say it was awkward would be an understatement.

 As for the VFW-  You might not recall, but I am a vet myself.  The local VFW's here in Iowa are on the decline so some of the older veterans try real hard to get myself and the younger vets to join.  It was almost all Korea and Vietnam era veterans.  The problem is that it is mostly a sad place, at least around here.  A bunch of forgotten old men drinking their time away with an occasional taco night.  That is a whole separate issue, however.  Needless to say, they never denied any vet a free beer that I ever saw. 

 

Did you walk in to your VFW and make the statement That their Patriotism and everything else they did was for nothing?

When you do let me know.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Manwon Lender

[Gromdor]

28 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Did you walk in to your VFW and make the statement That their Patriotism and everything else they did was for nothing?

When you do let me know.

I can.  Nothing will happen that you are expecting.  We will sit and talk about Pat Tillman, how he gave up his career and his life, toast him with a beer, and then talk about how much of a shame it is that we are just handing back Afghanistan to the very people he died trying to save it from.   The truth might make them sad, but you are mistaken if you think it will offend them.

[Grim Reaper 6]

21 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

I can.  Nothing will happen that you are expecting.  We will sit and talk about Pat Tillman, how he gave up his career and his life, toast him with a beer, and then talk about how much of a shame it is that we are just handing back Afghanistan to the very people he died trying to save it from.   The truth might make them sad, but you are mistaken if you think it will offend them.

What you said above is not the same as telling them their Patriotism and all the sacrifices they made were for nothing. If that doesn't offend them they are a unique group of Veterans, I can honestly say I have never met any like them.

You said that you could say that, so please do it and let me how it turns out.

Edited August 31, 2019 by Manwon Lender

[Gromdor]

1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

What you said above is not the same as telling them their Patriotism and all the sacrifices they made were for nothing. If that doesn't offend them they are a unique group of Veterans, I can honestly say I have never met any like them.

You said that you could say that, so please do it and let me how it turns out.

You are in luck.  VFW post 37 here in Ames was open because of the football game (ISU vs UNI).  Got a free beer and they weren't offended. 

Perhaps you are missing the context of my statement and what is going on in Afghanistan?  We have been negotiating a deal with the Taliban for the last few years.  Basically we give them Afghanistan and they let us keep troops there in a base so we can keep tabs on Iran.  They refuse to include the current Afghan government in the deal and are pretty open about replacing them.  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-taliban-talks/u-s-taliban-deal-will-not-stop-attacks-on-afghan-forces-taliban-say-idUSKCN1VG0NB

So to rehash- We are giving Afghanistan back to the Taliban.  The 2000 American dead and 20,000 wounded were for nothing.  (My opinion).

You may feel that securing a military base for use against Iran and a promise to not host international terrorists were worth it, but I do not.

[Grim Reaper 6]

36 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

You are in luck.  VFW post 37 here in Ames was open because of the football game (ISU vs UNI).  Got a free beer and they weren't offended. 

Perhaps you are missing the context of my statement and what is going on in Afghanistan?  We have been negotiating a deal with the Taliban for the last few years.  Basically we give them Afghanistan and they let us keep troops there in a base so we can keep tabs on Iran.  They refuse to include the current Afghan government in the deal and are pretty open about replacing them.  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-taliban-talks/u-s-taliban-deal-will-not-stop-attacks-on-afghan-forces-taliban-say-idUSKCN1VG0NB

So to rehash- We are giving Afghanistan back to the Taliban.  The 2000 American dead and 20,000 wounded were for nothing.  (My opinion).

You may feel that securing a military base for use against Iran and a promise to not host international terrorists were worth it, but I do not.

Thanks for you reply, and I think maybe I did miss part of your point. However, we really are not pulling out if 8000 solders will be maintained in Afghanistan. This number comprises Two Full Combat Ready Brigades, with the previous number of US Soldiers being around 14,000  two thirds are being left in Afghanistan. You say we giving it back nor really that many troops staying.

There is no set date when the US will no longer have a presence in Afghanistan, according to President Trump.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Manwon Lender

[Gromdor]

Just now, Manwon Lender said:

Thanks for you reply, and I think maybe I did miss part of your point. However, we really are not pulling out if 8000 solders will be maintained in Afghanistan. This number comprises Two Full Combat Ready Brigades, with the previous number of US Soldiers being around 14,000  two thirds are being left in Afghanistan. 

There is no set date when the US will no longer have a presence in Afghanistan, according to President Trump.

Well to be fair, the deal hasn't been made yet.  They've been talking about it for two years now.  It might never come to pass and the reasons why bothers me might be the sticking point for why it hasn't been formally inked yet. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

Just now, Gromdor said:

Well to be fair, the deal hasn't been made yet.  They've been talking about it for two years now.  It might never come to pass and the reasons why bothers me might be the sticking point for why it hasn't been formally inked yet. 

Thanks for your honest reply.

[Agent0range]

19 hours ago, and then said:

Do you think it impossible for mortars to be brought over that southern border?  Do you have any idea the amount of damage such a weapon could do to oil refineries and our electrical grid at large?  At some point I believe we WILL be savaged by cell activity from Iran or the wider M.E.  Hundreds, maybe thousands dead or wounded.  Safety is just an illusion and it will be dispelled at some point.  When that happens we will have to absolutely go ROMAN on some countries and to hell with public opinion.

LOL, what?  I have been involved in literally hundreds of mortar attacks.  I remember 2 people dying.  Mortars are anti-personnel weapons that explode out and up with a quite small kill radius.  It doesn't do much damage at all to equipment.  A generator exploding will do more damage.  Hundreds or thousands dead or wounded?  All I am getting out of this statement is ignorance, or hyperbole...

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

On 8/30/2019 at 5:01 PM, aztek said:

yea pretty sad, all those poppy fields we were guarding will be burned down by taliban, and there will be only fraction left just like before we invaded the country.  really sad.  and why did we go there in a first place? because 15+ saudis  commited 911?

Well, I'm not going to say what the reason was that we entered Afghanistan but what I will say is what we were told was the reason.

Yes, we sent thousands of troops to Afghanistan to find that bad bad man Osama bin Laden and his traveling partner, Mullah Omar who were hiding out in the mountain caves of Tora Bora. 

Of course, since it took just a few Navy Seals to kill OBL in Pakistan, one might ask why did we need thousands of troops committed in Afghanistan in the first place and especially since OBL's death, 8 years ago?

Riiiiiiiiiiight. And now you know why I won't say why the US went to Afghanistan in the first place, *I don't know*.  

[DarkHunter]

On 8/31/2019 at 9:44 PM, Agent0range said:

LOL, what?  I have been involved in literally hundreds of mortar attacks.  I remember 2 people dying.  Mortars are anti-personnel weapons that explode out and up with a quite small kill radius.  It doesn't do much damage at all to equipment.  A generator exploding will do more damage.  Hundreds or thousands dead or wounded?  All I am getting out of this statement is ignorance, or hyperbole...

60 mm mortars have a lethal blast radius between 10 and 14 meters, 81 mm mortars having a lethal blast radius between 17 and 19 meters, and 120 mm mortars having a lethal blast radius of 30 meters.  That is according to the US army anyway but whether someone would die or not while within those ranges would depend on a lot of variables.

As for hundreds or thousands dead that really depends on a lot of variables.  On February 5, 1994 in Sarajevo a single 120 mm warhead killed 68 people and wounded 144 more.  Depending on the density of people, location, and amount of mortars used along with amount of rounds fired, going anywhere from 1 mortar firing 1 round to a small group of mortars firing a few rounds, it is not impossible for those numbers.  Getting close to a thousand would be extremely unlikely and highly improbable in one attack but still theoretically possible.

Lastly as for damage to equipment, specifically power grid and refineries, that would just come down to pure luck.  A small explosion, far smaller then even a 60 km mortar round if done in the right place with the right conditions could completely destroy a refinery but a bomber could also drop all its bombs on a refinery and not do significant damage.  For electric grid one could cause problems with just a rifle if they were a good shot and knew what to aim at so a mortar could work also but once again would be purely luck.

[Alchopwn]

Given that the Taliban is on the warpath again, I am glad Trump has done the right thing. 

[+Hammerclaw]

The conclusion reached by every great power that has ever meddled in the internal affairs of Afghanistan, is to get the hell out of the place and leave the mindless cretins to joyously slaughtering each other as they've done for centuries. 

[+and-then]

On 8/31/2019 at 1:08 PM, Tatetopa said:

Meanwhile we need to focus major resources on finding and eliminating terrorist cells that are already in the US.

I can agree with this IF by "eliminating" you mean military tribunals and timely execution.  

[+and-then]

59 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

The conclusion reached by every great power that has ever meddled in the internal affairs of Afghanistan, is to get the hell out of the place and leave the mindless cretins to joyously slaughtering each other as they've done for centuries. 

While I'm all for allowing them to be self-culling, those other nations did not have to deal with easy travel and high tech weaponry that these sand fleas have available to them now.  Leave them alone and un-harried and they WILL come knocking again, 9-11 style.  Better to keep playing a refined game of whack -a- Jihadi there.

[+and-then]

On 8/31/2019 at 8:44 PM, Agent0range said:

Mortars are anti-personnel weapons

I assume you are an expert on indirect weapons as well?  So, dropping an 80 or 122MM into a refinery next to a storage area wouldn't cause fires that could spread?  Or are you saying there is only a single specific load out for all mortars and that they can't fire incendiary type rounds?  HE only?  Try not to be an ass, K?  The point is that such weapons can easily be moved into the country and used against critical infrastructure - to great effect.  

[+Hammerclaw]

5 minutes ago, and then said:

While I'm all for allowing them to be self-culling, those other nations did not have to deal with easy travel and high tech weaponry that these sand fleas have available to them now.  Leave them alone and un-harried and they WILL come knocking again, 9-11 style.  Better to keep playing a refined game of whack -a- Jihadi there.

No. You're conflating Al Qaeda with The Taliban. This is an internecine conflict that will have to resolve itself as is the on going conflict in Libya. Both will have to resolve themselves and the world will have to treat with victors. If bringing democracy to Islam is a panacea for all our fears, then Iran and Turkey should be paradises. All you're doing bringing democracy to Islam, is bringing democracy to Islam.

[+and-then]

10 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

No. You're conflating Al Qaeda with The Taliban. This is an internecine conflict that will have to resolve itself as is the on going conflict in Libya. Both will have to resolve themselves and the world will have to treat with victors. If bringing democracy to Islam is a panacea for all our fears, then Iran and Turkey should be paradises. All you're doing bringing democracy to Islam, is bringing democracy to Islam.

I don't think anyone today thinks that is possible.  The goal now is to kill as many as is possible and weaken their preparations to fight a war HERE.  It would be foolish to think they can't bring it so keeping them busy on defense is the best thing available today.  Turn tail and leave and they would build a new and improved version of "slaughter for fun and prizes", AKA Islamic State, and rally other ignorant Islamofascists to their black banners.  

No, there will be no clean breaks or walking away from this one.  Islam and Democracy are like oil and water.  When they say they love death the way others love Pepsi, I take them at their word and say we should give them what they want in as large doses as possible.  When they're all gone, salt the ground the grew on.

[Tatetopa]

On 8/31/2019 at 3:44 PM, Manwon Lender said:

What you said above is not the same as telling them their Patriotism and all the sacrifices they made were for nothing.

Manwon, sacrifices and patriotism are never for nothing!  Your contributions and others' sacrifices are never wiped out.  Governments and policy may change, but as andthen has so correctly stated about other issues, the government is not the fount of patriotism and sacrifice, it is the soldiers themselves.

What a soldier gives is to himself, and his buddies, and his family, and to the rest of us citizens, grateful and ungrateful.  Maybe even undeserving.  Your oath is to the Constitution of the United States not a man or an administration, and that has been fulfilled.

The price is often heavy, sometimes a lifetime of anguish and night terrors, sometimes so unbearable that  veterans  consider ending their suffering.  We as citizens owe you a lot more than we manifest.  We could fight a lot harder for veterans care when they return.  It should never be a budget argument, it should be done.

 

 

[+and-then]

14 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Manwon, sacrifices and patriotism are never for nothing!  Your contributions and others' sacrifices are never wiped out.  Governments and policy may change, but as andthen has so correctly stated about other issues, the government is not the fount of patriotism and sacrifice, it is the soldiers themselves.

What a soldier gives is to himself, and his buddies, and his family, and to the rest of us citizens, grateful and ungrateful.  Maybe even undeserving.  Your oath is to the Constitution of the United States not a man or an administration, and that has been fulfilled.

The price is often heavy, sometimes a lifetime of anguish and night terrors, sometimes so unbearable that  veterans  consider ending their suffering.  We as citizens owe you a lot more than we manifest.  We could fight a lot harder for veterans care when they return.  It should never be a budget argument, it should be done.

 

 

Well said and I agree with every word!

[Agent0range]

50 minutes ago, and then said:

I assume you are an expert on indirect weapons as well?  So, dropping an 80 or 122MM into a refinery next to a storage area wouldn't cause fires that could spread?  Or are you saying there is only a single specific load out for all mortars and that they can't fire incendiary type rounds?  HE only?  Try not to be an ass, K?  The point is that such weapons can easily be moved into the country and used against critical infrastructure - to great effect.  

Well, considering you are asking, artillery was my MOS.  I wouldn't really call them incendiary rounds.  There are white and red phosphorous rounds that can start a fire.  But it burns very hot and fast, it is mainly used for marking targets for CAS.  I have never seen a fire start from a mortar or artillery round, including phosphorous rounds.  Also, mortars are VERY inaccurate weapons when not used correctly.  Once you assume a firing position, you have to calibrate your rounds by lot and shell type.  This also requires a MET, which is the meteorological conditions every couple hundred meters up to 50,000 feet to include wind direction, wind speed, and barometric pressure.  For accurate firing, a new MET must be plugged in to the computer every couple hours.  I'm just saying, mortars are not really a threat to infrastructure...