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Eldorado

Trump to keep US troops in Afghanistan

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Tatetopa
5 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

Yeah well, I think its pretty damn sad.. depressing even. The guy has undoubtedly served his country honorably allbeit in wars of deceit, fighting for the establishment criminals in his government.. now spends his days drunk on a forum, emotionally lashing out at people who dare to cast blame on the government who used and discarded him.

I get it though, if you are or have been dealing with extremist monsters like AQ and ISIS.. Id suppose you'd be inclined to wield a tunnelvision, losing all nuance. Irony is, this is exactly what happens with the victims of the nations the US has been erm.. 'liberating'.

Phaeton, I share a lot of your views, but I think you are being incredibly condescending here, and somewhat a victim of tunnel vision yourself.  All governments have their share of good and evil, or maybe it resolves down to expedient actions. 

US soldiers swear an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, not an administration or policy.  To suggest they get tunnel vision belies the facts.  PTSD is a major cause of vet health issues and suicides, and has been since at least Vietnam..  The horrors that they see are real.  The actions that haunt some of them are too real.  Imagine for yourself being charged and shot at by half a dozen screaming figures.  When the shooting is all done, you find two of those were 10 year old kids, and you have kids at home.  It is the stuff on nightmares.

Now you might argue and some of us agree that the US should not be in some of the countries where our government has taken us, but that argument is pointless to the guy behind the sandbags in fear for his life.

There are plenty of vets on this website, and none of them are blind loyal patriots that refuse to accept any criticism of our government.  They all have their different views, many share similar experiences to Manwon.  It is not the fault of any of them that we are where we are in the world.

 

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Phaeton80
5 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Phaeton, I share a lot of your views, but I think you are being incredibly condescending here, and somewhat a victim of tunnel vision yourself.  All governments have their share of good and evil, or maybe it resolves down to expedient actions. 

US soldiers swear an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States, not an administration or policy.  To suggest they get tunnel vision belies the facts.  PTSD is a major cause of vet health issues and suicides, and has been since at least Vietnam..  The horrors that they see are real.  The actions that haunt some of them are too real.  Imagine for yourself being charged and shot at by half a dozen screaming figures.  When the shooting is all done, you find two of those were 10 year old kids, and you have kids at home.  It is the stuff on nightmares.

Now you might argue and some of us agree that the US should not be in some of the countries where our government has taken us, but that argument is pointless to the guy behind the sandbags in fear for his life.

There are plenty of vets on this website, and none of them are blind loyal patriots that refuse to accept any criticism of our government.  They all have their different views, many share similar experiences to Manwon.  It is not the fault of any of them that we are where we are in the world.

 

 

Well I apologise if thats the case.. His extreme apologetic 'weve done nothing wrong, its all them' could only be described as tunnelvision, I dont really have another word for it. I am extremely sympathetic to the offers and sacrifices made, and the horrors sufered by these fine men. But the crimes which have been and are perpetrated by their governement I cannot accept, and I feel criticizing and pointing out such crimes is paramount. The USA today is nothing like any other nation, in a geo political sense.. To trivialize these developments with 'every country is good and bad' doesnt really cover the load, imho.

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Tatetopa
1 hour ago, and then said:

While I'm all for allowing them to be self-culling, those other nations did not have to deal with easy travel and high tech weaponry that these sand fleas have available to them now.  Leave them alone and un-harried and they WILL come knocking again, 9-11 style.  Better to keep playing a refined game of whack -a- Jihadi there.

How many 9-11 terrorists were from Afghanistan and how many from Saudi Arabia?  And whose behind are we kissing today, and whose crown prince does our administration have a bromance with and who do we want to sell a lot more weapons to?

It kind of torpedoes your logic.  It is not the Afghans that have been bankrolling and exporting the most intolerant branch of Islam it is Saudi Arabia.  

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Tatetopa
2 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

The USA today is nothing like any other nation, in a geo political sense.. To trivialize these developments with 'every country is good and bad' doesnt really cover the load, imho.

It is not trivial, I do not mean it to be so.  The USA today is the inheritor of long imperial and colonial traditions.  Even the Dutch had their colonies.  But today,the USA is paramount, and in some ways the driver of present and future behavior of governments and populations all over the world.

Since we affect your life in many ways, it is reasonable for you to express your opinions and make comments. You will notice that many in the US also loudly voice comments  about the right or wrong choices the government makes.  There are even elected representatives whose voices are strong about the environment and how we treat other peoples and nation states in the world. So far, we  have not forbidden internal disagreement, I take that as a good sign.  

Much of our current psyche was shaped by our parents in my case or grandparents for younger folks.  The men  and women who fought in WWII  sincerely believed that their countries and families were at stake.  They had to stop Germany from military invasions of their neighbors.  The mindset might have carried over to Korea and Vietnam  thinking of communists as the analogue to Nazi Germany.  Further down the road, that mindset shaped our policy in the Middle East.

Personally, I am not sure that terrorists can be fought in the same way as the army of a powerful state.   The US is not a monolithic block of mindless robots, there are a lot of views and disagreements internally.  I hope we can peacefully resolve those  internal views   It would be a prideful thing to behave in the moral and ethical realms we aspire to, but it will not happen today.

 

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Hammerclaw
2 hours ago, and then said:

I don't think anyone today thinks that is possible.  The goal now is to kill as many as is possible and weaken their preparations to fight a war HERE.  It would be foolish to think they can't bring it so keeping them busy on defense is the best thing available today.  Turn tail and leave and they would build a new and improved version of "slaughter for fun and prizes", AKA Islamic State, and rally other ignorant Islamofascists to their black banners.  

No, there will be no clean breaks or walking away from this one.  Islam and Democracy are like oil and water.  When they say they love death the way others love Pepsi, I take them at their word and say we should give them what they want in as large doses as possible.  When they're all gone, salt the ground the grew on.

Not worth it. The locus would, simply, transfer to another Islamic country. Swatting flies with sledgehammers doesn't work very well and genocide is not an option. Best to give them the opportunity to destroy themselves. 

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Hankenhunter
On 8/31/2019 at 11:08 AM, Tatetopa said:

Terrorists are not really terrorists in their own neighborhood though, they  become terrorists when they go to somebody else neighborhood. 

I have to disagree with this statement. America has disproven this with white domestic terrorism.

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Manwon Lender
9 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:


Gddmn, everything allright there Manwon? Take another drink why not.

PS. its parrot, not Parot, which is a surname.. or at least thats what 'the political party I serve' tells me.

 

Sorry buddy, I don't drink and I also do not use drugs. But your right I did certainly go to far, and for that I do apologize.

But, thanks for your concern, and yes everything is alright.

Edited by Manwon Lender

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RAyMO
1 minute ago, Hankenhunter said:

I have to disagree with this statement. America has disproven this with white domestic terrorism.

Just thinking out loud. And this will be difficult to express without half or all of the people on these boards getting annoyed. The intention is not to annoy but explore.

Is terrorism a label which governments apply to too many things, to nullify the population, to set the direction of any analysis of situations they find uncomfortable, to path they find convenient. 

Is a rebel fighting against a foreign power a terrorist or a freedom fighter, does it depend on the viewpoint of the commentator, can they be both simultaneously from differing viewpoints?   

Is a terrorist always a terrorist, what about South Africa, or perhaps even India. 

This is not to downplay the activities of terrorists, the death, the carnage, the simple wrongness and evilness of intent. But I wonder if sometimes the mere label stops a thorough analysis of the causes of actions.

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Hankenhunter
2 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

Just thinking out loud. And this will be difficult to express without half or all of the people on these boards getting annoyed. The intention is not to annoy but explore.

Is terrorism a label which governments apply to too many things, to nullify the population, to set the direction of any analysis of situations they find uncomfortable, to path they find convenient. 

Is a rebel fighting against a foreign power a terrorist or a freedom fighter, does it depend on the viewpoint of the commentator, can they be both simultaneously from differing viewpoints?   

Is a terrorist always a terrorist, what about South Africa, or perhaps even India. 

This is not to downplay the activities of terrorists, the death, the carnage, the simple wrongness and evilness of intent. But I wonder if sometimes the mere label stops a thorough analysis of the causes of actions.

Now the US gov't wants to label a group of people who have done nothing wrong, other than to confront fascists and racists, who have not harmed anyone other than some minor scuffles, as domestic terrorists. 

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Manwon Lender
3 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Manwon, sacrifices and patriotism are never for nothing!  Your contributions and others' sacrifices are never wiped out.  Governments and policy may change, but as andthen has so correctly stated about other issues, the government is not the fount of patriotism and sacrifice, it is the soldiers themselves.

What a soldier gives is to himself, and his buddies, and his family, and to the rest of us citizens, grateful and ungrateful.  Maybe even undeserving.  Your oath is to the Constitution of the United States not a man or an administration, and that has been fulfilled.

The price is often heavy, sometimes a lifetime of anguish and night terrors, sometimes so unbearable that  veterans  consider ending their suffering.  We as citizens owe you a lot more than we manifest.  We could fight a lot harder for veterans care when they return.  It should never be a budget argument, it should be done.

 

 

Thanks but I don't deserve your kind words, I was out of line in my post to Pheaton80. However, I do appreciate your concern, also I appreciate "And Thens" concern also. Sometimes I get carried away and like everyone else say things I don't mean.

Thanks Everyone, I really appreciate you guys having my back more than you can know.

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Alchopwn
11 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

The conclusion reached by every great power that has ever meddled in the internal affairs of Afghanistan, is to get the hell out of the place and leave the mindless cretins to joyously slaughtering each other as they've done for centuries. 

We have already tried that.  It didn't work.  Remember Sept 11?  Left alone they export the only things they have in abundance; opium and terror.

Edited by Alchopwn

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Gromdor

16 dead and 119 wounded as the Taliban set a bomb off in a residential area housing foreigners.  All this during the interview with Zalmay Khalilzad detailing the reduction of American forces: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-49559493

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Manwon Lender
2 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

16 dead and 119 wounded as the Taliban set a bomb off in a residential area housing foreigners.  All this during the interview with Zalmay Khalilzad detailing the reduction of American forces: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-49559493

You have to think these people were smarter than that, with this I wouldn't doubt that Trump will increase the numbers in Afghanistan especially if Americans were killed.

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Manwon Lender
On 9/3/2019 at 6:53 AM, Hankenhunter said:

Now the US gov't wants to label a group of people who have done nothing wrong, other than to confront fascists and racists, who have not harmed anyone other than some minor scuffles, as domestic terrorists. 

Domestic Terrorism is not a law by itself, its actually part of the Patriot Act. To date no one has been tried for this law, not saying it couldn't happen at anytime. Since it is covered by the Patriot Act if some one were charged it wouldn't be by local authorities, because it is a federal crime.

Here is a link that explains the laws that cover Domestic Terrorism:

https://www.aclu.org/other/how-usa-patriot-act-redefines-domestic-terrorism

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Phaeton80
On 9/2/2019 at 9:45 PM, Tatetopa said:

How many 9-11 terrorists were from Afghanistan and how many from Saudi Arabia?  And whose behind are we kissing today, and whose crown prince does our administration have a bromance with and who do we want to sell a lot more weapons to?

It kind of torpedoes your logic.  It is not the Afghans that have been bankrolling and exporting the most intolerant branch of Islam it is Saudi Arabia.  

 
The proverbial elephant in the room no one 'parroting the party line' - excuse the pun but this time it is a party line - wants to hear, let alone discuss. Saudia Arabia is nothing less than a full disrobe of the Kings clothes.. The sheer hypocrisy becomes completely obvious if one knows the facts surrounding this nation, now and in the past (employing Wahhabi extremists as a proxy to murder and pillage isnt anything new, it was employed against the Ottoman empire after WWII, marvellously painted up side down in the classic movie Lawrence of Arabia).

Not only is this source of Sunni Wahhabi terrorism completely ignored.. Iran is labelled as exactly that (leading state sponsor of terrorism around the world).. eventhough there were exactly 0 terrorist acts committed by Shia affiliated groups in the West. Those Shia 'terrorist acts' that were committed were either against enemy states or in the Yemen war.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
4 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

Not only is this source of Sunni Wahhabi terrorism completely ignored.. Iran is labelled as exactly that (leading state sponsor of terrorism around the world).. eventhough there were exactly 0 terrorist acts committed by Shia affiliated groups in the West. Those Shia 'terrorist acts' that were committed were either against enemy states or in the Yemen war.

We should all be aware that when president's like Bush call certain nations the "Axis of Evil" they are referring to countries that won't toe the line on America's "Israel tolerant" policy in the ME. 

I pay no more attention to these labels than I do the man-in-the-moon.

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Phaeton80

Oh btw, for those of us who suppose Islam and Democracy are incompatible, some information.. (which ofcourse will be discarded, nonetheless):

Quote

Islam and Democracy: Text, Tradition, and History

This paper challenges the popular perception that Islam and democracy are incompatible, and argues that the lack of democracy in some Muslim countries is not because of Islam but in spite of it. This argument will be developed in two stages. First, it will consider the legal–ethical order embedded in Islam's text (the Qur'an) and tradition (prophetic example) to consider the democratic implications inherent in that con-struction. Second, it will explore three "high periods" of Islamic rule to consider their progressive, inclusive, and demo-cratic tendencies. It will suggest that the current problems of democracy experienced by many Muslim countries are not necessarily caused by factors intrinsic to Islam, but by forces external to those areas.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/265101275_Islam_and_Democracy_Text_Tradition_and_History

 

Edited by Phaeton80
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third_eye
1 hour ago, Phaeton80 said:

Oh btw, for those of us who suppose Islam and Democracy are incompatible, some information.. (which ofcourse will be discarded, nonetheless):

 

They'll have to understand what Democracy really means through the democratic process first. 

~

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Phaeton80
1 minute ago, third_eye said:

They'll have to understand what Democracy really means through the democratic process first. 

~


:D

I didnt want to go there, but thats exactly what I was thinking. If there ever was such a farce..

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Dark_Grey
2 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

Oh btw, for those of us who suppose Islam and Democracy are incompatible, some information.. (which ofcourse will be discarded, nonetheless):

Is a woman's vote equal to a mans or has it been traditionally? I can't read the full article through your link

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Phaeton80
1 hour ago, Dark_Grey said:

Is a woman's vote equal to a mans or has it been traditionally? I can't read the full article through your link

 

Quote

Equality

An important notion in any democratic government is the equality of its citizens. The Declaration of Independence underscores the equality of all humans under God. The same is true in Islam, which holds that differences among human beings are ordained by God since He made mankind "into nations and tribes, that [they] may know eachother (not that [they] may despise each other) ... the most honored ofyou in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you.", 15The ahl al-dhimma, those groups of non-Muslims that lived inthe Islamic world under a contract of mutual agreement betweenthemselves and the Muslims, would pay a poll tax (fizya) to enable themto become members of the Islamic state and could enjoy equal rights andequal duties.16 While jizya was imposed, certain rights were solidlysecured in each community: life, freedom of religion, freedom ofexpression and movement, equal treatment under the law, and themaintenance of specific customs and its local laws.117

When one caliphtried to obtain afatwa to prohibit minorities from having wine and pork,Islamic jurist Abu al Hasan al-Basri's response was that so long as theahl al-dhimma paid thejizya they were free to have their own beliefs andthat the caliph should follow the religious regulations on these matters. 18Subsequent jurists made it a duty of the Islamic state to defend minoritiesagainst harm because of the dhimma contract."9Islam also calls for justice along lines of race, class, or ethnicity. In the view of Ibn Taymiyya, it was unjust for a ruler to act according toprejudices along such lines. By doing so, the ruler was a traitor to God and His Prophet.'20 Islam also played a large role in empowering women. It grantedthem the right to choose their husbands and the right to own and inheritproperty. More importantly, Islam accorded women equal religious statusbefore God.12 1 Because of this new status and the effects it had on thecommunity, women became pillars of early Muslim society. 122

Several women, notably Fatima (daughter of the Prophet Muhammad and wife of  Ali, the fourth of the Rightly Guided Caliphs) played an important role inpropagating the Islamic faith.'23 A'isha, a wife of the Prophet, was notedfor her intelligence and was frequently consulted about the teachings ofthe Prophet after his death.24Despite the tradition of female empowerment, the spirit ofgender equality never fully developed under Islamic law, as much of theprogressive momentum of Islam died with the Prophet. As a matter ofhistory, male jurists monopolized classical Islamic law and where theQur'an gave no more, they gave no further-a relationship of inequitythat remains to this very day.25 The fact that female scholars are notrepresented at high levels in Islamic governments is unfortunate, giventhat women in the early Islamic period participated in shura and yma'.126It is also unfortunate that the same Qur'an that liberated oppressedwomen at the dawn of Islam is now being used to oppress them.

 

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Manwon Lender
On 9/3/2019 at 4:27 AM, Agent0range said:

Well, considering you are asking, artillery was my MOS.  I wouldn't really call them incendiary rounds.  There are white and red phosphorous rounds that can start a fire.  But it burns very hot and fast, it is mainly used for marking targets for CAS.  I have never seen a fire start from a mortar or artillery round, including phosphorous rounds.  Also, mortars are VERY inaccurate weapons when not used correctly.  Once you assume a firing position, you have to calibrate your rounds by lot and shell type.  This also requires a MET, which is the meteorological conditions every couple hundred meters up to 50,000 feet to include wind direction, wind speed, and barometric pressure.  For accurate firing, a new MET must be plugged in to the computer every couple hours.  I'm just saying, mortars are not really a threat to infrastructure...

So you were a 13B, I worked with a M110 8inch Howitzer Battalion back in 88 and 89 before the 8inch was retired from service. I did Special Weapons training and certification for Howitzer Battaions, I also did some of the same work with M197 155 Howitzer Battaions. During a special demonstration I got see an 8 inch fire a RAP round simulating the firing of a Special Weapons Round that was pretty cool.

You guys worked really hard in the field, but man the M13B MOS had some great soldiers and I enjoyed working with them.

Take care.

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kartikg
On 8/31/2019 at 10:05 AM, Tatetopa said:

I've always believed that but now I am not so sure.  Why would they and how could they?  It is a lot easier to drive down the road in a convoy of Land Cruisers and pickups with 50 cals mounted in the back and terrorize a small village than it is to get to America with that sort of force and not be quickly opposed. Fighting terrorists in their own countries and in neighborhoods of sympathetic people is hard.  Terrorists that did make it here would not have that advantage.   Average armed Americans might take them out even before the military got there.  I think we might be kidding ourselves about how indispensable  or even how useful our efforts in the Middle East are.  

Actually it's very useful not just for usa but even to the rest of the world, those terrorists in Afghanistan would have eventually targeted nearby Asian countries not capture them but cause bombings. US forces have eliminated a good chunk of them. 

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Phaeton80
5 hours ago, kartikg said:

Actually it's very useful not just for usa but even to the rest of the world, those terrorists in Afghanistan would have eventually targeted nearby Asian countries not capture them but cause bombings. US forces have eliminated a good chunk of them. 


Which is ofcourse very true.. But the irony is the US was / is supporting proxies (Mujahideen in Afghanistan against Russians, the 'Muslim Brotherhood' against Nasser in Egypt and ISIS affiliated groups in Syria against al Assad) arming & building these groups up, as well as creating prime terrorist breedinggrounds (ie. Iraq, Libya, Syria) as well as political and military support of their ideological and financial homeland Saudi Arabia on the left.. while fighting them on the right.

Our world was changed beyond recognition after that fateful day in September 2001, after which the US started a literally endless campaign of violence and illegal wars against Islamic nations, also known as 'the War on Terror. On September 11, 2001, Al Qaeda was the most modest of forces with militant followers in perhaps the low thousands in Afghanistan and tiny numbers of scattered supporters elsewhere on the planet. Now, there are Al Qaeda spin-offs and wannabe outfits, often thriving, from Pakistan to Yemen, Syria to North Africa, and of course the Islamic State (ISIS), that self-proclaimed caliphate of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, still holds a sizeable chunk of territory in Iraq and to a lesser extent (not because but in spite of the US) in Syria while its “brand” has spread to groups from Afghanistan to Libya and even Indonesia.

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RoofGardener

Hmmm..... a little earlier in this thread, people where talking about "you have to fight them over there, or you end up fighting them at home", a refference to terrorist attacks. 

However, I have a question in the context of Afghanistan. 

Has there been ANY terrorist attacks in the USA - or in Europe - that have been attributed to Afghans, or to the Taliban ?

I don't think there have been ?  

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