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CloudSix

Thoughts about flouride

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Desertrat56
5 minutes ago, stereologist said:

Studies show that fluoridation is a safe and effective means of reducing the rate of dental problems. In cities that have opted to stop fluoridation of their water supply the rate of cavities goes back up.

https://www.cdc.gov/fluoridation/index.html

Fluoridation hardens teeth.

One of the outstanding issues is how does fluoridation prevent cavities. Here are two hypotheses.

1. It hardens teeth preventing the damaging activity of bacteria

2. It makes the tooth surface slippery to prevent bacteria from sticking

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4841a1.htm

Notice:

1. The reduction in cavities is measurable. 

2. Fluoridation helps everyone including the poor

3. It does not require the patient to be compliant

 

If fluoridation hardened teeth my daughter would have good teeth.  We lived in an area where the water was heavily, naturally fluoridated and everyone had soft brown teeth.  They had few cavities but they also lost their teeth at a young age, even the non-drinkers.  So maybe small amounts of fluoride help protect teeth from cavities but too much cause worse problems.   Besides if toothpaste has fluoride in it, why do we need it in our water?  Just brush your teeth.

P.S.  3. why do we have to be treated like children?  That attitude of compliance is bothersome to me, it actually sounds like an excuse instead of a good reason.

Edited by Desertrat56
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ChrLzs
43 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

If fluoridation hardened teeth my daughter would have good teeth.

So, no other factors are involved?  That's not even remotely scientific.

Quote

We lived in an area where the water was heavily, naturally fluoridated and everyone had soft brown teeth.  They had few cavities but they also lost their teeth at a young age, even the non-drinkers.  So maybe small amounts of fluoride help protect teeth from cavities but too much cause worse problems.   Besides if toothpaste has fluoride in it, why do we need it in our water?  Just brush your teeth.

Like many, many other trace elements, sodium fluoride IS definitely proven beneficial, and it can come from a number of natural sources.  There is quite a wide range of 'acceptable' fluoride intake, and only small amounts are ever added to drinking water - and that is normally only done where appropriate levels of fluoride are *not* found in in the typical local diet.  If you're concerned that you or your kids get too much, get blood tests done.

Quote

P.S.  3. why do we have to be treated like children?

Same reason we vaccinate, etc.  many people are children, and they can't be bothered to think or research for themselves, instead preferring to jump to a tinfoil website for a bit of fearnongering..

 

And a coupla misconceptions - yes reverse osmosis is 'good' and should remove fluoride, BUT it most certainly does not remove all dissolved chemicals...  And if not of a high quality (it should have a testing authority stamp - check the details) or if not very carefully maintained, it won't work properly at all.  Many nasty compounds (eg pesticides, herbicides, even Chlorine!) have molecules that are near or below H20 sized, and RO will let them through....

Brita-type filters are less effective than RO...  It's virtually impossible to produce 'pure' water without some very sophisticated equipment.

This is coming from someone with a lot of experience with laboratory-based water filtration and pumping systems.

But also note that as humans, our bodies are not good at dealing with totally purified water - the 'correct' water should have some salt, and also be in the range of pH 6 to 8.5, ie very slightly acidic thru to a bit alkaline.  Normal water out of a tap is pretty close to dead right.

Drinking too much pure/over-filtered water will actually cause chemical imbalances and can end up poisoning you!  I kid you not - look it up

 

Edited by ChrLzs
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stereologist
1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

If fluoridation hardened teeth my daughter would have good teeth.  We lived in an area where the water was heavily, naturally fluoridated and everyone had soft brown teeth.  They had few cavities but they also lost their teeth at a young age, even the non-drinkers.  So maybe small amounts of fluoride help protect teeth from cavities but too much cause worse problems.   Besides if toothpaste has fluoride in it, why do we need it in our water?  Just brush your teeth.

P.S.  3. why do we have to be treated like children?  That attitude of compliance is bothersome to me, it actually sounds like an excuse instead of a good reason.

Just like anything else it depends on how much you get in terms of fluoride in your water supply. 

In general, the levels that do not stain teeth will harden teeth.

You claim it softens teeth. I cannot find any sources that back up this statement.

The issue with brushing is that it requires compliance. You actually have to brush your teeth. Adding fluoride to water does not require the person to comply by being active.

Compliance is a problem with most patients. They stop taking their meds. They take meds for the wrong reasons. They take contraindicated meds.

In the case of dental issues there is a general savings of public funds through better dental hygiene. 

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Desertrat56
4 minutes ago, stereologist said:

Just like anything else it depends on how much you get in terms of fluoride in your water supply. 

In general, the levels that do not stain teeth will harden teeth.

You claim it softens teeth. I cannot find any sources that back up this statement.

The issue with brushing is that it requires compliance. You actually have to brush your teeth. Adding fluoride to water does not require the person to comply by being active.

Compliance is a problem with most patients. They stop taking their meds. They take meds for the wrong reasons. They take contraindicated meds.

In the case of dental issues there is a general savings of public funds through better dental hygiene. 

I think everyone should  brush their teeth, but if someone doesn't it is none of my business.  Adults have the right to comply or not comply.  Fluoride in the water is not the same as people prescribed meds that choose not to take them.  We can't continue down this road of deciding what is best for someone without their input.  Your argument is weak because of that.  As for the softness of my daughter's teeth, where else would that come from?   It is not genetic, and the rest of us do not have soft teeth and did not spend a portion of our childhood drinking heavily fluoridated water.  So since you know everything, maybe you can give me a better explanation.  It's not like she is the only one who was a child in this area who now has soft teeth.

I agree, too much can cause damage, which was my point.  Just because you never heard of it does not mean I am lying or making something up because I am stupid.

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ChrLzs
4 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Adults have the right to comply or not comply.

Not if that affects others adversely.  Eg for vaccinations, if your kids aren't vaccinated and my kids or grandkids have to attend a school with them, then what will happen if they are too young to be vaccinated, or have other immunity issues, or subsequently just pass those germs onto a baby?  Those decisions are DEADLY and I know that from close to first hand experience, so it's a touchy topic with me...

In the case of fluoridation, why not have a look at the statistics on dental caries in areas that were low in fluoride, and then introduced it to drinking water..  Or should my taxpayers money pay for all that dental work?

And what about the water authorities - should they filter the water, do you think, or just pump it straight from the dam?  If there's an outbreak of salmonella, should they chlorinate?  Should they filter the bejeezus out of the water and supply absolutely pure H2O? (HINT - NO, as pure water without some salt is actually unhealthy!  So they *need* to add salts).  Should they control the amount of salts to a healthy level?  What about other trace elements that keep us healthy?  That seems to me to be a very logical thing to do...

It's not just a matter of having choices, it's common sense.  Sure, argue about the amounts, but I don't see much of that happening - it's just people moaning about not having choices, and ignoring the complexities and wider moral questions.

Quote

As for the softness of my daughter's teeth, where else would that come from?

If you seriously want to discuss that, let's start with you posting a redacted copy of a dental report showing the issue and verifying your 'non-genetic' claims and also whatever recommendations were made.  Then we'll talk about fluid and solid diet and precisely how her diet differs from the rest of the family, in terms of vegetable preferences, drink preferences, confectionery consumption, even body chemistry issues - tiny differences can make a big difference.  FTR, I have one brother who got false teeth at 20, one who still has original teeth at 70, and then me, who is getting close to needing false ones, at a bit over 60... I think we're genetically related... :D

 

Look, I'm not trying to be an @$$, but things happen, people are different, and topics like this are complex.  In general I have no problem with fluoridation, but there are regions where there are naturally high levels of fluoride, and they shouldn't do it there.  

 

 

Edited by ChrLzs

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stereologist
12 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I think everyone should  brush their teeth, but if someone doesn't it is none of my business.  Adults have the right to comply or not comply.  Fluoride in the water is not the same as people prescribed meds that choose not to take them.  We can't continue down this road of deciding what is best for someone without their input.  Your argument is weak because of that.  As for the softness of my daughter's teeth, where else would that come from?   It is not genetic, and the rest of us do not have soft teeth and did not spend a portion of our childhood drinking heavily fluoridated water.  So since you know everything, maybe you can give me a better explanation.  It's not like she is the only one who was a child in this area who now has soft teeth.

I agree, too much can cause damage, which was my point.  Just because you never heard of it does not mean I am lying or making something up because I am stupid.

I don't see a weakness in the argument of the public good. You are trying to pin my statements to just one of your beliefs. 

This is a case of less than a dollar a person to improve society. For those on public assistance, their care is lowered because of fluoride. That means everyone paying taxes has less of a burden because costs are lowered. Bad health in one part of the body can lead to other problems and if that person is on public assistance then it means I am helping them pay their bills.

https://www.absolutedental.com/blog/10-health-issues-caused-by-bad-oral-health/

You are stating your daughter's teeth are soft.

1. What mechanical testing did you do to determine they were soft?

2. How did you determine that it was not genetic?

You seem to be connecting things that are not necessarily connected. Everyone does that. You are assuming teeth are soft, not knowing they are soft. You've reached that conclusion due to the number of caries I'm guessing from what you wrote. You also dismiss the genetic angle when it could be something due to a recessive gene. This could be due to drinking more sugary drinks, frequent vomiting, more exposure to candy, a habit of teeth grinding, biting down on hard things, more sugary processed foods, eating snacks after brushing, etc.

As with all issues in life and especially with living things, the issues are rather complicated.

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Festina
On 9/2/2019 at 9:07 AM, Piney said:

Yes, we do! Read some real medical studies. 

Why do they put fluoride in anesthesia? To erase the memory of what may have occurred while unconscious?  Those trickster chemists, pharmakeus.

pharmacy (n.)

late 14c., "a medicine," from Old French farmacie "a purgative" (13c.), from Medieval Latin pharmacia, from Greek pharmakeia "use of drugs, medicines, potions, or spells; poisoning, witchcraft; remedy, cure," from pharmakeus (fem. pharmakis) "preparer of drugs, poisoner, sorcerer" from pharmakon "drug, poison, philter, charm, spell, enchantment." Beekes writes that the original meaning cannot be clearly established, and “The Word is clearly Pre-Greek.”

https://www.etymonline.com/word/pharmacy

Read the docs report. 

https://www.curezone.org/forums/fm.asp?i=1008997

Docs are troubled by NDEs, many of which occur under anesthesia — kinda puts the squash on their ideas about life and death and may at some point put many of them out of business.  

 

Edited by Festina Lente
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Piney
8 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

Docs are troubled by NDEs, many of which occur under anesthesia — kinda puts the squash on their ideas about life and death and may at some point put many of them out of business.  

:lol:

None that I know of and I know a lot.

NDEs are your brain shutting down and based on your own religious beliefs. 

9 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

Why do they put fluoride in anesthesia? To erase the memory of what may have occurred while unconscious?  Those trickster chemists, pharmakeus.

:lol:  stop.......just stop........it's too early and I just did 50 situps..........:lol:

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Nnicolette

They know its bad. When my son was a baby the pediatrician directed me to pour flouride down his throat "on account of his race and his increased susceptibility to tooth decay because of it" It even said on the bottle how dangerous that is and never to do it, not to mention he didn't have teeth yet and his dentist said that is not helpful to your teeth if you do have any. Appalling. Racist *******s. 

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, Nnicolette said:

They know its bad. When my son was a baby the pediatrician directed me to pour flouride down his throat "on account of his race and his increased susceptibility to tooth decay because of it" It even said on the bottle how dangerous that is and never to do it, not to mention he didn't have teeth yet and his dentist said that is not helpful to your teeth if you do have any. Appalling. Racist *******s. 

I seriously doubt that happened at all. 

And just to be on the dentist side.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070325111747.htm

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Nnicolette
6 minutes ago, Piney said:

:lol:

None that I know of and I know a lot.

NDEs are your brain shutting down and based on your own religious beliefs. 

:lol:  stop.......just stop........it's too early and I just did 50 situps..........:lol:

I dont know i dont have religious beliefs or expectations but i had an nde. It was just like being out of the body unable to speak or do anything in blackness with a bright round light in the distance that i was drawn toward. Of course i didnt go close or stay long so its hard to know if there was any religious significance or would have been if i just went to it, but at the time i was refusing to do that.

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Piney
1 minute ago, Nnicolette said:

I dont know i dont have religious beliefs or expectations but i had an nde. It was just like being out of the body unable to speak or do anything in blackness with a bright round light in the distance that i was drawn toward. Of course i didnt go close or stay long so its hard to know if there was any religious significance or would have been if i just went to it, but at the time i was refusing to do that.

I've been dead twice and don't remember a thing. 

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XenoFish
4 minutes ago, Piney said:

I've been dead twice and don't remember a thing. 

Like going to sleep, except when you do wake up you feel cold down to the bone. Well, I did anyway.

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Festina

Duplicate post

Edited by Festina Lente

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XenoFish

Just start collecting and treating rain water. See how much fun that is. 

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Festina
43 minutes ago, Piney said:

:lol:

None that I know of and I know a lot.

NDEs are your brain shutting down and based on your own religious beliefs. 

:lol:  stop.......just stop........it's too early and I just did 50 situps..........:lol:

Quote

Home water treatment systems are also available for people looking to remove fluoride from their drinking water at home. The typical charcoal-based water filtration systems (e.g. Britta  filters) do not remove floride from water. The typical cgharcoal-based water filtration systems (e.g., Brita filters) do not remove fluoride from water. Boiling water also does not remove fluoride. Point-of-use distillation and reverse osmosis are treatment methods that have proven to be effective for removing fluoride. Only water used for drinking or cooking needs to be treated when fluoride concentrations exceed the MCL or secondary standard because fluoride is not absorbed through the skin. DEQ recommends ensuring all treatment system components and chemicals are certified by NSF. Always follow the manufacturer’s recommendations for operation and maintenance of any water treatment system. Occasional sampling from the treatment system is also recommended to determine the effectiveness of the treatment.

FYI as in an earlier previous post you stated they did.

Edited by Festina Lente

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Festina
7 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Just start collecting and treating rain water. See how much fun that is. 

My water company does not add floride to the water. I’m not going to worry about the natural floride. 

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Piney
3 minutes ago, Festina Lente said:

FYI as in an earlier previous post you stated they did.

I stated they put it in water supplies and it occurs naturally in some water tables.

Not they they put it in anesthesia. Don't put words in my mouth.

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, Piney said:

I stated they put it in water supplies and it occurs naturally in some water tables.

Not they they put it in anesthesia. Don't put words in my mouth.

I wonder how many people worry about the dihydrogen monoxide that's in water?

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Festina
35 minutes ago, Piney said:

I've been dead twice and don't remember a thing. 

 

Quote

As man has internally a spiritual organ and a sensorium to receive the true principle of divine wisdom, or a true motive for the will or divine love, he has also exteriorly a physical and material sensorium to receive the appearance of light and truth. As external nature can have no absolute truth, but only phenomenally relative, therefore, human reason cannot cognise pure truth, it can but apprehend through the appearance of phenomena, which excites the lust of the eye, and in this as a source of action consists the corruption of sensuous man and the degradation of nature.

This exterior sensorium in man is composed of frail matter, whereas the internal sensorium is organized fundamentally from incorruptible, transcendental, and metaphysical substance.

The first is the cause of our depravity and our mortality, the second the cause of our incorruptibility and of our immortality.

In the regions of material and corruptible nature mortality hides immortality, therefore all our trouble results from corruptible mortal matter. In order that man should be released from this distress, it is necessary that the immortal and incorruptible principle, which dwells within, should expand and absorb the corruptible principle, so that the envelope of the senses should be opened, and man appear in his pristine purity.

 

Magic.

The Principles Of 

Higher Knowledge

 

Perhaps You were not ready for The Truth.  Lose the chainsaw, bitterness and hate and you may have better results next time. 

:D

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Festina
16 minutes ago, Piney said:

I stated they put it in water supplies and it occurs naturally in some water tables.

Not they they put it in anesthesia. Don't put words in my mouth.

I thought YOU said the Britta water systems removes fluoride.  I may have been mistaken, I’ll see if I can find the post..  

I said they put it in anesthesia, and they do.  FACT.  Ask an anesthesiologist.

The Britta system does not remove floride.

Edited by Festina Lente

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XenoFish

Whatever reality tunnel floats your boat.

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Festina
On 9/2/2019 at 5:41 AM, Piney said:

Brita filters take out everything. 

HERE YA GO....

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Piney
Just now, Festina Lente said:

Perhaps You were not ready for The Truth.  Lose the chainsaw, bitterness and hate and you may have better results next time. 

Like I said before I WAS RAISED IN THE RELIGIOUS-SHAMAN CASTE

I knew how magic worked before I was 12.

If you knew me you'd know that tag was a "running joke" here and there is no bitterness and hate. 

But since you actually can't systemize someone's personality from their words you aren't a good Worker. 

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Piney
Just now, Festina Lente said:

HERE YA GO....

Well, that isn't anything about anesthesia. 

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