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CloudSix

Thoughts about flouride

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Desertrat56
5 minutes ago, stereologist said:

Studies show that fluoridation is a safe and effective means of reducing the rate of dental problems. In cities that have opted to stop fluoridation of their water supply the rate of cavities goes back up.

https://www.cdc.gov/fluoridation/index.html

Fluoridation hardens teeth.

One of the outstanding issues is how does fluoridation prevent cavities. Here are two hypotheses.

1. It hardens teeth preventing the damaging activity of bacteria

2. It makes the tooth surface slippery to prevent bacteria from sticking

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4841a1.htm

Notice:

1. The reduction in cavities is measurable. 

2. Fluoridation helps everyone including the poor

3. It does not require the patient to be compliant

 

If fluoridation hardened teeth my daughter would have good teeth.  We lived in an area where the water was heavily, naturally fluoridated and everyone had soft brown teeth.  They had few cavities but they also lost their teeth at a young age, even the non-drinkers.  So maybe small amounts of fluoride help protect teeth from cavities but too much cause worse problems.   Besides if toothpaste has fluoride in it, why do we need it in our water?  Just brush your teeth.

P.S.  3. why do we have to be treated like children?  That attitude of compliance is bothersome to me, it actually sounds like an excuse instead of a good reason.

Edited by Desertrat56
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ChrLzs
43 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

If fluoridation hardened teeth my daughter would have good teeth.

So, no other factors are involved?  That's not even remotely scientific.

Quote

We lived in an area where the water was heavily, naturally fluoridated and everyone had soft brown teeth.  They had few cavities but they also lost their teeth at a young age, even the non-drinkers.  So maybe small amounts of fluoride help protect teeth from cavities but too much cause worse problems.   Besides if toothpaste has fluoride in it, why do we need it in our water?  Just brush your teeth.

Like many, many other trace elements, sodium fluoride IS definitely proven beneficial, and it can come from a number of natural sources.  There is quite a wide range of 'acceptable' fluoride intake, and only small amounts are ever added to drinking water - and that is normally only done where appropriate levels of fluoride are *not* found in in the typical local diet.  If you're concerned that you or your kids get too much, get blood tests done.

Quote

P.S.  3. why do we have to be treated like children?

Same reason we vaccinate, etc.  many people are children, and they can't be bothered to think or research for themselves, instead preferring to jump to a tinfoil website for a bit of fearnongering..

 

And a coupla misconceptions - yes reverse osmosis is 'good' and should remove fluoride, BUT it most certainly does not remove all dissolved chemicals...  And if not of a high quality (it should have a testing authority stamp - check the details) or if not very carefully maintained, it won't work properly at all.  Many nasty compounds (eg pesticides, herbicides, even Chlorine!) have molecules that are near or below H20 sized, and RO will let them through....

Brita-type filters are less effective than RO...  It's virtually impossible to produce 'pure' water without some very sophisticated equipment.

This is coming from someone with a lot of experience with laboratory-based water filtration and pumping systems.

But also note that as humans, our bodies are not good at dealing with totally purified water - the 'correct' water should have some salt, and also be in the range of pH 6 to 8.5, ie very slightly acidic thru to a bit alkaline.  Normal water out of a tap is pretty close to dead right.

Drinking too much pure/over-filtered water will actually cause chemical imbalances and can end up poisoning you!  I kid you not - look it up

 

Edited by ChrLzs
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stereologist
1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

If fluoridation hardened teeth my daughter would have good teeth.  We lived in an area where the water was heavily, naturally fluoridated and everyone had soft brown teeth.  They had few cavities but they also lost their teeth at a young age, even the non-drinkers.  So maybe small amounts of fluoride help protect teeth from cavities but too much cause worse problems.   Besides if toothpaste has fluoride in it, why do we need it in our water?  Just brush your teeth.

P.S.  3. why do we have to be treated like children?  That attitude of compliance is bothersome to me, it actually sounds like an excuse instead of a good reason.

Just like anything else it depends on how much you get in terms of fluoride in your water supply. 

In general, the levels that do not stain teeth will harden teeth.

You claim it softens teeth. I cannot find any sources that back up this statement.

The issue with brushing is that it requires compliance. You actually have to brush your teeth. Adding fluoride to water does not require the person to comply by being active.

Compliance is a problem with most patients. They stop taking their meds. They take meds for the wrong reasons. They take contraindicated meds.

In the case of dental issues there is a general savings of public funds through better dental hygiene. 

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Desertrat56
4 minutes ago, stereologist said:

Just like anything else it depends on how much you get in terms of fluoride in your water supply. 

In general, the levels that do not stain teeth will harden teeth.

You claim it softens teeth. I cannot find any sources that back up this statement.

The issue with brushing is that it requires compliance. You actually have to brush your teeth. Adding fluoride to water does not require the person to comply by being active.

Compliance is a problem with most patients. They stop taking their meds. They take meds for the wrong reasons. They take contraindicated meds.

In the case of dental issues there is a general savings of public funds through better dental hygiene. 

I think everyone should  brush their teeth, but if someone doesn't it is none of my business.  Adults have the right to comply or not comply.  Fluoride in the water is not the same as people prescribed meds that choose not to take them.  We can't continue down this road of deciding what is best for someone without their input.  Your argument is weak because of that.  As for the softness of my daughter's teeth, where else would that come from?   It is not genetic, and the rest of us do not have soft teeth and did not spend a portion of our childhood drinking heavily fluoridated water.  So since you know everything, maybe you can give me a better explanation.  It's not like she is the only one who was a child in this area who now has soft teeth.

I agree, too much can cause damage, which was my point.  Just because you never heard of it does not mean I am lying or making something up because I am stupid.

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ChrLzs
4 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Adults have the right to comply or not comply.

Not if that affects others adversely.  Eg for vaccinations, if your kids aren't vaccinated and my kids or grandkids have to attend a school with them, then what will happen if they are too young to be vaccinated, or have other immunity issues, or subsequently just pass those germs onto a baby?  Those decisions are DEADLY and I know that from close to first hand experience, so it's a touchy topic with me...

In the case of fluoridation, why not have a look at the statistics on dental caries in areas that were low in fluoride, and then introduced it to drinking water..  Or should my taxpayers money pay for all that dental work?

And what about the water authorities - should they filter the water, do you think, or just pump it straight from the dam?  If there's an outbreak of salmonella, should they chlorinate?  Should they filter the bejeezus out of the water and supply absolutely pure H2O? (HINT - NO, as pure water without some salt is actually unhealthy!  So they *need* to add salts).  Should they control the amount of salts to a healthy level?  What about other trace elements that keep us healthy?  That seems to me to be a very logical thing to do...

It's not just a matter of having choices, it's common sense.  Sure, argue about the amounts, but I don't see much of that happening - it's just people moaning about not having choices, and ignoring the complexities and wider moral questions.

Quote

As for the softness of my daughter's teeth, where else would that come from?

If you seriously want to discuss that, let's start with you posting a redacted copy of a dental report showing the issue and verifying your 'non-genetic' claims and also whatever recommendations were made.  Then we'll talk about fluid and solid diet and precisely how her diet differs from the rest of the family, in terms of vegetable preferences, drink preferences, confectionery consumption, even body chemistry issues - tiny differences can make a big difference.  FTR, I have one brother who got false teeth at 20, one who still has original teeth at 70, and then me, who is getting close to needing false ones, at a bit over 60... I think we're genetically related... :D

 

Look, I'm not trying to be an @$$, but things happen, people are different, and topics like this are complex.  In general I have no problem with fluoridation, but there are regions where there are naturally high levels of fluoride, and they shouldn't do it there.  

 

 

Edited by ChrLzs

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