Economic Attractiveness

[Gromdor]

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jomf.12603

https://www.inc.com/chris-matyszczyk/fewer-people-are-getting-married-reason-why-is-stunning-according-to-science.html

  So basically the idea is that being dirt poor makes you an unattractive potential marriage partner regardless of love.  From personal experience, I am inclined to believe this.  When I was single I received numerous marriage proposals from single moms simply because I had a steady job and health insurance.

Is this a factor in driving up the number of incels?  Is it a trend that is going to hurt society or child rearing?  Other thoughts? 

[Gwynbleidd]

It's not only economic attractiveness - tell me what female wants to marry a soy boy effeminate male just because he has a great income plus health cover?  The study says love is important but obviously, not important enough to marry which is kinda sad. It appears to come down to money in this study.   

This link backs up men with low paying jobs compared to high paying jobs (also according to their education), but also takes into account women getting paid higher wages due to equality (and also their education).   https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/living-single/201805/half-century-fewer-people-marrying-what-explains-it 

Will it affect society?  Probably.  

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by Gwynbleidd

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

If anyone knows a woman who’d marry a tubby PE teacher with all the economic acumen of a wombat I know a bloke.

[aztek]

yes, i believe that, more and more young males can't find jobs, some do not want to work at all, they live in their parents basements, blaming rich men, toxic masculinity, and wanting to get paid just because they were born,   why would they attract any female? what have they got to offer? safety?, financial security? life filled with fun and adventure?  lol,  that is besides other qualities, that  gwynbleidd mentioned, 

however, it is not bad, the way i see it, while more and more young adults become financially and otherwise, unattractive, some become more attractive than ever. 

oh, btw, aren't we living in new equality filled world? such concepts of man taking care of woman should not exist in such world.  maybe such ideas were brainwashed out of males, and the result is  this thread,  it also seems that nature is removing such males form gene pool.   overall i see it a win win situation

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by aztek

[Gromdor]

28 minutes ago, aztek said:

yes, i believe that, more and more young males can't find jobs, some do not want to work at all, they live in their parents basements, blaming rich men, toxic masculinity, and wanting to get paid just because they were born,   why would they attract any female? what have they got to offer? safety?, financial security? life filled with fun and adventure?  lol,  that is besides other qualities, that  gwynbleidd mentioned, 

however, it is not bad, the way i see it, while more and more young adults become financially and otherwise, unattractive, some become more attractive than ever. 

oh, btw, aren't we living in new equality filled world? such concepts of man taking care of woman should not exist in such world.  maybe such ideas were brainwashed out of males, and the result is  this thread,  it also seems that nature is removing such males form gene pool.   overall i see it a win win situation

 

I don't think it's just young males.  I know of a few mid-forties that have repeatedly tried and failed at getting wives (or even a date).  Similarly, I know of a lot of single moms that constantly complain about not finding good men.  When I point them at each other they just turn up their noses. Not that I blame them, I wouldn't marry any of them either if I were in either role.

Besides it sucking to be them, the US is dealing with decreasing birthrates, more single parents, and less overall marriages.  Socially, are we going to change and adapt to this new norm?  I honestly expect it to get worse with "virtual partner" technology.  Looking at Japan sometimes makes me wonder if we will go extinct because we are finding dolls to be a more ideal and problem free partner than a real person.

[aztek]

9 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

I don't think it's just young males.  I know of a few mid-forties that have repeatedly tried and failed at getting wives (or even a date).  Similarly, I know of a lot of single moms that constantly complain about not finding good men.  When I point them at each other they just turn up their noses. Not that I blame them, I wouldn't marry any of them either if I were in either role.

Besides it sucking to be them, the US is dealing with decreasing birthrates, more single parents, and less overall marriages.  Socially, are we going to change and adapt to this new norm?  I honestly expect it to get worse with "virtual partner" technology.  Looking at Japan sometimes makes me wonder if we will go extinct because we are finding dolls to be a more ideal and problem free partner than a real person.

it is all by design. this is no way an accident or an unintended consequence.    

 

 

[spartan max2]

I think the study is kind of trying to pull two separate phenonima together.

I live with my girlfriend of 4 years, we are not married.

Same with a few of my friends, they are moved in together but not married. Has nonething to do with "economic attractiveness".

Historically, a few decades ago we would all be marriage right now. 

Everyone in my generation can quote , be it true or not, the stat that 50 percent of marriages end in divorce because it was drilled in our heads growing up lol.

People push having a family to later and life and people are going to school which makes the need for marriage less urgent. 

"Economic attractiveness" has of course always been a factor in mating but I think it's a little fragile of a connection to connect it as the reason for less marriages. 

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by spartan max2

[+OverSword]

I know a few women at work that have married effeminate soy boys with jobs in tech. One of my close friends at work is married to a guy I’m sure is gay.

[aztek]

40 minutes ago, OverSword said:

I know a few women at work that have married effeminate soy boys with jobs in tech. One of my close friends at work is married to a guy I’m sure is gay.

i can't blame women at all, they are doing the best they can to support their kids, or future kids,  financial factor is one of the most important one in today 's life,  they are sacrificing their happiness by living with a man they married for money, so their kids are taken care of. i kinda feel bad for those ladies. 

Edited September 10, 2019 by aztek

[Farmer77]

Its evolution folks its not exactly like we have a say in the matter . The best providers are no longer big strong "manly men".

Biology doesnt care what looks nice it cares whats gonna do the best at ensuring those genes get passed on. Today the guy who can fit best in the office space is for the most part the guy who can best ensure that happens.

[aztek]

yes it seem to be the case today, however supply demand rule works here as well,  those man who have money and healthy T level,  and are fun to be around, are much more in demand now, cuz supply is really low,

[+OverSword]

The truth is there are many other reasons than wealth or lack thereof that have resulted in more single people.  I myself discovered over a multi decade relationship in which we didn't want children that really what I had signed on for was someone else's drama and self imposed trauma which in no way seemed to benefit me or my happiness.  As a result I have been single for a long time.  I'm not a bad looking guy nor would I be a bad choice for a financial partner but what would I get out of it?  From my experience the answer to that last question is chaos and frustration.  I see elements of this in all my friends  who are married or in a commitment and to me at some point it ceased seeming to be worth it.

Edited September 10, 2019 by OverSword

[aztek]

marriage is a grand, divorce is 100 grand

[Tatetopa]

2 hours ago, aztek said:

yes it seem to be the case today, however supply demand rule works here as well,  those man who have money and healthy T level,  and are fun to be around, are much more in demand now, cuz supply is really low,

Indeed, but those men have many potential partners and may not be ready to settle down.  They look good, but don't make good partners.  Other people are so needy that they can't give as much as they require.

Many people are seeking emotional or financial support.  Maybe Oversword was with someone that needed more emotionally  from him than she could contribute.

23 minutes ago, OverSword said:

I myself discovered over a multi decade relationship in which we didn't want children that really what I had signed on for was someone else's drama and self imposed trauma which in no way seemed to benefit me or my happiness. 

 

5 hours ago, Gromdor said:

I don't think it's just young males.  I know of a few mid-forties that have repeatedly tried and failed at getting wives (or even a date).  Similarly, I know of a lot of single moms that constantly complain about not finding good men.  When I point them at each other they just turn up their noses. Not that I blame them, I wouldn't marry any of them either if I were in either role.

Are we becoming a society of undesirable partners Gromdor?   Maybe you are on to something with the virtual partner technology.  With advances in science maybe one could even raise a child with a loving, reliable, perfect match, robot partner 

We are schooled to want perfect matches aren't we?  Compromise is so tedious.

It does have its limits though Gromdor, to have an excellent robot partner is going to cost plenty, one will need financial security.  The ultimate slap will be a robot that turns down a human partner because the human can't afford the maintenance and desirable upgrades the robot wants.

[aztek]

yes, i blame Hollywood, lol.  prefect guy, perfect house, perfect life...blah blah.... they get people believe in things that do not exist in real world.  and they do it from early age. 

[spartan max2]

18 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Indeed, but those men have many potential partners and may not be ready to settle down.  They look good, but don't make good partners.  Other people are so needy that they can't give as much as they require.

Many people are seeking emotional or financial support.  Maybe Oversword was with someone that needed more emotionally  from him than she could contribute.

 

Are we becoming a society of undesirable partners Gromdor?   Maybe you are on to something with the virtual partner technology.  With advances in science maybe one could even raise a child with a loving, reliable, perfect match, robot partner 

We are schooled to want perfect matches aren't we?  Compromise is so tedious.

It does have its limits though Gromdor, to have an excellent robot partner is going to cost plenty, one will need financial security.  The ultimate slap will be a robot that turns down a human partner because the human can't afford the maintenance and desirable upgrades the robot wants.

Perfect plot for a sci fi novel lol

[+Desertrat56]

17 hours ago, Gromdor said:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jomf.12603

https://www.inc.com/chris-matyszczyk/fewer-people-are-getting-married-reason-why-is-stunning-according-to-science.html

  So basically the idea is that being dirt poor makes you an unattractive potential marriage partner regardless of love.  From personal experience, I am inclined to believe this.  When I was single I received numerous marriage proposals from single moms simply because I had a steady job and health insurance.

Is this a factor in driving up the number of incels?  Is it a trend that is going to hurt society or child rearing?  Other thoughts? 

I think both studies are as flawed as the studies using only numbers of women vs numbers of men.  There are a lot more reasons women are not marrying like they used to.  One big one is that it is not necessary for survival like it was before.  100 years ago an unmarried woman could not have a bank account unless her father or brother opened it for her and was her cosigner on everything.  It probably is partly because of economics, but there is a societal thing going on that causes a lot of women to realize marriage is for the convenience of men and adds more burdens than value to a woman's life.  I am not talking about raising children, most of us are raising children alone anyway, it is about have a grown man child to also take care of.  I know there are men who are married that are not that way, but at least in my generation, those are few and far between, and like I said, already married.  My idea and experience is that women have risen to the occasion and have expectations different from men.  Men in our society are mostly stuck in the 50's as far as their attitudes, except for one and that is "It is fine if my wife earns more than I do as long as she has clean towels in the cupboard and dinner on the table when I get home."

[+Desertrat56]

7 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

If anyone knows a woman who’d marry a tubby PE teacher with all the economic acumen of a wombat I know a bloke.

The tubby part isn't the problem.  Is he interesting?  Does he read books or watch only sports on television.  Can he cook and does he own a shovel?  Does he like to leave the house more than just going to work or a sporting event? 

[+Desertrat56]

1 hour ago, OverSword said:

The truth is there are many other reasons than wealth or lack thereof that have resulted in more single people.  I myself discovered over a multi decade relationship in which we didn't want children that really what I had signed on for was someone else's drama and self imposed trauma which in no way seemed to benefit me or my happiness.  As a result I have been single for a long time.  I'm not a bad looking guy nor would I be a bad choice for a financial partner but what would I get out of it?  From my experience the answer to that last question is chaos and frustration.  I see elements of this in all my friends  who are married or in a commitment and to me at some point it ceased seeming to be worth it.

I see the same thing you do.  My only marriage lasted less than 5 years.  It was really stupid to even bother getting married.  Most of my friends aren't married, even the ones who have been with a partner for decades did not marry.

[+Desertrat56]

26 minutes ago, aztek said:

yes, i blame Hollywood, lol.  prefect guy, perfect house, perfect life...blah blah.... they get people believe in things that do not exist in real world.  and they do it from early age. 

It is called programming for a reason.

[Duke Wellington]

17 hours ago, Gromdor said:

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jomf.12603

https://www.inc.com/chris-matyszczyk/fewer-people-are-getting-married-reason-why-is-stunning-according-to-science.html

  So basically the idea is that being dirt poor makes you an unattractive potential marriage partner regardless of love.  From personal experience, I am inclined to believe this.  When I was single I received numerous marriage proposals from single moms simply because I had a steady job and health insurance.

Is this a factor in driving up the number of incels?  Is it a trend that is going to hurt society or child rearing?  Other thoughts? 

You take internet articles seriously?

I`m a guy and if I do a search right now on how a woman can attract a male it will tell her to have a bad girl attitude towards men. Apparently that is what alpha females are and all of us guys are falling over backwards to be with them. If that isn't laughable enough then consider how the internet and magazine articles will have them getting fake spray tans, marker pen eyebrows, showering 5 times a day, and developing an athletic body at the gym.

First of all only guys that are damaged goods put up with women that have negative attitudes. The rest of us avoid them like the plague. Next I like a light natural tan on a woman, and pale in winter looks fine too. The marker pen eyebrows look ridiculous, you only need to shower 3 times a week (we like the natural smell of women so long as she hasn't gone crusty), and we like a normal physique.

Bearing in mind that 90% of people are dirt poor, most of them seem to be married with kids.

[Robotic Jew]

People's standards are too high. If everyone lowered their standards just a tiny bit the whole world would be more horizontal(if that's your thing) and better off.

[aztek]

they do lower them eventually,  but by then they themselves lose value, it applies to all 72 gender identities.

[lightly]

39 minutes ago, Robotic Jew said:

People's standards are too high. If everyone lowered their standards just a tiny bit the whole world would be more horizontal(if that's your thing) and better off.

  I agree.  My wife lowered her standards as low as she could...and we've had 20 happy years of marriage. ...out of 43.   

[Gromdor]

I'm not agreeing whole heartedly with what the study says is the cause.  But it does seem to be another factor contributing towards a society changing dynamic.  I'm not trying to assign blame with this topic.  Merely trying to discuss an issue that seems to be happening and that real life friends seem to be complaining about.  (The Incels that are running around shooting people kind of relate to this as well.)

6 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

You take internet articles seriously?

The first link I gave was a published study.  The second was an internet article talking about it to give someones impression of the study.

6 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Indeed, but those men have many potential partners and may not be ready to settle down.  They look good, but don't make good partners.  Other people are so needy that they can't give as much as they require.

Many people are seeking emotional or financial support.  Maybe Oversword was with someone that needed more emotionally  from him than she could contribute.

 

Are we becoming a society of undesirable partners Gromdor?   Maybe you are on to something with the virtual partner technology.  With advances in science maybe one could even raise a child with a loving, reliable, perfect match, robot partner 

We are schooled to want perfect matches aren't we?  Compromise is so tedious.

It does have its limits though Gromdor, to have an excellent robot partner is going to cost plenty, one will need financial security.  The ultimate slap will be a robot that turns down a human partner because the human can't afford the maintenance and desirable upgrades the robot wants.

I think the problem will be resolved one way or the other long before the err dolls become sentient.  But I do think the whole concept of the dolls is turning people into undesirable partners.  What person wouldn't want a robot partner that looks like whatever their ideal is, acts how you find ideal, always complies with your wishes, and you can put in a closet when you are done with?  With such a robot is there any motivation to improve yourself to be more compatible with another living person (with their undesirable traits)?

It's not just robots either, VR tech is coming a long way as well. In this case it can be interactive with other real people, however.