Netanyahu plans to annex the Jordan Valley

[Black Red Devil]

4 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

No, by definition (back in 1967 when the 'occupation' started), there WAS no "Palestinian State". Indeed, there never had been at any time in history. The only time that "Palestine" was considered a "country" was back when the Kingdom of Israel existed. Ever since then, it has been an occupied province of one or another of various imperial powers. (the Romans, the Babylonians, various others.... the Ottomans, the Mandate (the UK and France) and finally... Israel again  

OK, so it's occupied territory of a recognised State.  So basically it's a country without territory because Israel illegally occupies it.  Am I missing something?

[RoofGardener]

3 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

I initially said they were in refugee camps but I disagree with the reasons you imply. I've broken down the legitimacy of the rulings in Area's A, B & C for you and with different degrees they are subject to Israeli control, militarily and administratively.  While Gaza has no space.  It's Israel who doesn't want a few million extra Palestinians within it's occupied territories and guess why?

Yes, but the Palestinian Refugee Camps... IN PALESTINE.. predate the Oslo area definitions. (A, B and C)

[Black Red Devil]

5 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmm..... any student of the PLO and its behaviour becomes a pessimist  

I mean.. I hope you're right, and that there is a popular uprising and an "Arab Spring" in the occupied territories. But any uprising would likely result in a bloodbath as the PLO turns its AK47's on its own people. 

So it's all about those murderous Arabs and nothing about the all conquering Zionists? Biased a little

[RoofGardener]

1 minute ago, Black Red Devil said:

OK, so it's occupied territory of a recognised State.  So basically it's a country without territory because Israel illegally occupies it.  Am I missing something?

Hmm.. since 1988, when Arafat unilaterally declared "The State of Palestine". About 60% of the UN recognise the state, so I guess it IS a state. However, if Netanyahu gets his way, it is about to get a bit smaller ! 

[RoofGardener]

1 minute ago, Black Red Devil said:

So it's all about those murderous Arabs and nothing about the all conquering Zionists? Biased a little

Oh come come @Black Red Devil. We can disagree on many issues regarding the Arab-Israeli wars, but there is one thing you SURELY must agree with me on ? And that is that the PLO is a self-perpetuating oligarchy with a history of offering violence to any of its "people" who dissent ? 

[Black Red Devil]

2 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Yes, but the Palestinian Refugee Camps... IN PALESTINE.. predate the Oslo area definitions. (A, B and C)

What difference does that make.  The Area definition are more about the degrees of control (some would call it occupation) but the bottom line is Israel controls who comes in and out and dis so before Oslo.

[Black Red Devil]

2 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmm.. since 1988, when Arafat unilaterally declared "The State of Palestine". About 60% of the UN recognise the state, so I guess it IS a state. However, if Netanyahu gets his way, it is about to get a bit smaller ! 

I agree

[Black Red Devil]

4 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Oh come come @Black Red Devil. We can disagree on many issues regarding the Arab-Israeli wars, but there is one thing you SURELY must agree with me on ? And that is that the PLO is a self-perpetuating oligarchy with a history of offering violence to any of its "people" who dissent ? 

Which is the reason I posted you the info and link.  Maybe people are sick of the fat oligarchs ruining their lives but it has to work on both sides.

[RoofGardener]

8 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Which is the reason I posted you the info and link.  Maybe people are sick of the fat oligarchs ruining their lives but it has to work on both sides.

The tragedy of it is that Palestine could become a paradise, just like Israel, with industries, wealth, a MASSIVE tourist trade, the works. The PLO was the worst thing to every happen to the average Palestinian. (well... notwithstanding the creation of Israel in the first place). But then, it was created by the Soviet Union, the evil empire that screwed so much of the planet up. 

[Sir Smoke aLot]

On 9/11/2019 at 11:39 PM, and then said:

I have an app on my phone that alarms when rockets are incoming into Israeli communities.  It has been going off for several minutes today and yesterday.  

Were you aware that those in Gaza launched a salvo at Netanyahu, personally, yesterday?  He had to be evac-ed from an event where he was known to be going.  That is war.  Decapitation strikes leave no doubt.  When this thing really gets going, Israelis will die, possibly in very large numbers but the horrors that are going to be visited on Syrians, Lebanese and Gazans will be unprecedented, especially if those missiles in Lebanon are as accurate as we've been led to believe.  

The IDF FWIW, has promised that the next war with Hizballah will be the LAST, no matter what it takes.  As to Israelis putting their people at great risk, when HAVE THEY NOT been at great risk to those who hate them on all sides.  Their Arab neighbor's hatred, bolstered by Iran's weapons, is going to lead to chaos in that region.  The world will go into vapor lock of outrage over non-Israeli civilian deaths but I think that this time, that outrage is NOT going to stop the IDF until the job is well and truly done.

 

I am not sure how any of that is relevant to the fact that Israel is doing contrary to what it is saying. It's doing contrary to what they want us to believe about them.

They preach about values and criticize other nations but they have never distanced from their expansionist policies. Those policies, which have no place in modern world, are contrary to the foundation of international law.

They also preach about democracy and still one third of their own population has no equal rights - basically ethnic separation but that is perfectly in line with ethnocracy, which Israel is - proven without doubt by recent laws which were adopted by the government.

Recently, almost on daily basis - once debated subjects gets new light shed on them by Israel. And it is not in Israeli favor, not even slightly. 

More related to your ''security concern'', well, i am sorry but that doesn't play role anymore especially because Netanyahu has already won elections on the same cards. There is growing debate about it within Israeli society. I mean, you are concerned that ''Netanyahu was endangered'' and then you say ''it's war''.

I am sorry but if it's war then stop bringing those ''security concerns'' and ask of Israel to start acting in responsible and civilized manner. If they learn to behave then security risk will become thing of the past. 

BTW Hamas has expressed concern about growing number of ''independent'' groups in Gaza strip, groups which launch rockets as they like it and Hamas can not control it. One reason behind growing dissent among Gaza people is also Israeli propaganda and pressure campaign against Hamas, group which is pressured since they won elections back in 2006, democratic elections if i may add.

That is also important to note and please, you speak about ''Arab neighbor hatred'' but would you hate Mexico if they were discussing to take over Florida? Jordan was on decent terms with Israel but now Netanyahu is risking it. 

Let's be honest, my point is that Israel is really doing disfavor to their propagandists and will make hard case for magician lawyer, Alan Dershowitz. Looking forward to see what he invents now to, again, whitewash this expansionist empire medieval BS.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

On 9/12/2019 at 12:47 PM, Buzz_Light_Year said:

UN resolution 181. The Jewish people accepted and the Palestinian/Arabs rejected it. The Palestinians could've had their own state with the borders setup at the time of the UN resolution. But they rejected the resolution because they did not want a Jewish state to exist.

That is not only absurd but also irrelevant argument. Why? Because from 1936 it's illegal to take territory by force. This was confirmed by relevant authorities and serves as important guidance and law within international community.

Everything which lies outside of Israeli sovereignty (which is confirmed, Israel is also independent state protected by the same laws which they often disrespect) is not of their concern, to say the least. That includes East Jerusalem, Golan Heights, Sheba farms and other smaller territories and illegal settlements.

Israel wanted territory which wasn't theirs, something which was directly stated and told to Israeli representatives back in the time, LINK, but also Israel required international community to accept them as nation, for which reason they had to respect UNGA 181.

Not once but many times did Palestinians agree to take even as little as some 20% of territory, LINK. Why that did not suit Israelis, i wonder still. Also Palestine today has much different legal status than it had back in 1940's.

What is fact about UNGA 181 is that Israel was required to accept international community wishes in order to proclaim independence. Resolution 181 was not, in any case or argument, required to be accepted by any side, it was merely guidance and if Israel wanted independence they had to accept it. There are all resources available about admission of Israel and also Israeli independence charter shows this.

Israel accepted it for good reasons and Arabs were not required to respect it, so why do we hear that 'argument' still? If Israeli intentions were good they would never expand beyond that which they themselves agreed upon to be accepted into community as nation like any other.

Since 1988 this argument is obsolete because Palestine's statehood was also acknowledged by the UN. Two members voted against, USA and Israel. 44 were abstain. 104 voted for.

Unfortunately even that did not stop Israeli expansion, attacks, growing number of apartments in illegal settlements and so on.

On 9/12/2019 at 5:17 PM, RoofGardener said:

It is true that - historically - there was never a nation of Palestine.

Post WW1 agreements between British, French and Ottoman empire gave special consideration for region of Palestine and Trans-Jordan. Two as separate. You often mentioned Trans-Jordan with respect to the subject so let's treat Palestine like it also deserves, by your own standards if you will please.

It's not true that there was never nation of Palestine but in any case that is also irrelevant claim since both Israel and Palestine got their statehood confirmed by the UN.

 

[RoofGardener]

2 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

They also preach about democracy and still one third of their own population has no equal rights - basically ethnic separation but that is perfectly in line with ethnocracy, which Israel is - proven without doubt by recent laws which were adopted by the government.

...

And yet, curiously for an group lacking "equal rights", an Israeli Arab has more personal rights and freedoms than any other ethnic Arab in the Middle East ? 

[+and-then]

On 9/12/2019 at 3:05 PM, Black Red Devil said:

They were given favorable conditions due to what happened to them in WWII which the Arabs had nothing to do with.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/hitlers-mufti 

Not exactly accurate.

[+and-then]

On 9/12/2019 at 9:24 AM, third_eye said:

And how many of the Jews that "returned" with Operation Solomon applies to that same set of preconditions that you proclaim as agreeable to your judicious sense of international law and custom? 

~

I KNEW that your verbal style reminded me of someone but I could never nail it down...until now.

Beginning at 1:06

 

[+and-then]

7 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

They also preach about democracy and still one third of their own population has no equal rights - basically ethnic separation but that is perfectly in line with ethnocracy, which Israel is - proven without doubt by recent laws which were adopted by the government.

I agree that Israel is not a pure democracy, nor CAN it be if it is to be the nation-state of the Jewish people.  There are scores of Islamic countries.  Israel is the only nation for the Jewish people.  They need to just be honest and tell non-Jewish Israelis that they will effectively be second-class in many areas concerning governance decisions.  Whether they stay or go is up to them.

[SHaYap]

4 hours ago, and then said:

 

Beginning at 1:06

 

Here at 00.01:06

Quote

 

~

[Sir Smoke aLot]

9 hours ago, and then said:

I agree that Israel is not a pure democracy, nor CAN it be if it is to be the nation-state of the Jewish people.  There are scores of Islamic countries.  Israel is the only nation for the Jewish people.  They need to just be honest and tell non-Jewish Israelis that they will effectively be second-class in many areas concerning governance decisions.  Whether they stay or go is up to them.

I am glad that you finally agree, it's not a bad thing that Israel is not a democracy, just different and i see no reason for such propaganda on Israeli part. If they find a way to make deal with neighbors and return dignity to Palestinian people i would find a way to respect Jewish state or at least build respect on that.

Honesty, as possible in politics, yes. That's exactly my point, with decently honest politicians who have peace and security in their minds Israel can go long way and improve on the field where they constantly fail and endanger what they have built so far, and they did build a lot (i wont argue about how and why now because that should be behind both Palestinians and Israelis in order to find final deal and peace).

13 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

And yet, curiously for an group lacking "equal rights", an Israeli Arab has more personal rights and freedoms than any other ethnic Arab in the Middle East ? 

I was kinda surprised by the reply from @and then, we did sound like we are in 2019 and now you are trying to return us back to time of Mark Twain

[RoofGardener]

7 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

I am glad that you finally agree, it's not a bad thing that Israel is not a democracy, just different and i see no reason for such propaganda on Israeli part. If they find a way to make deal with neighbors and return dignity to Palestinian people i would find a way to respect Jewish state or at least build respect on that.

Honesty, as possible in politics, yes. That's exactly my point, with decently honest politicians who have peace and security in their minds Israel can go long way and improve on the field where they constantly fail and endanger what they have built so far, and they did build a lot (i wont argue about how and why now because that should be behind both Palestinians and Israelis in order to find final deal and peace).

Your underlying premis is wrong. Your point is slanted and biased. And yet... and yet... I find myself agreeing with the thrust of your post ? 

I will immediately seek medical attention  

7 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

I was kinda surprised by the reply from @and then, we did sound like we are in 2019 and now you are trying to return us back to time of Mark Twain

Well, in connection with the discussion on Israel and the Palestinians, I will leave you with a quote from the Great Man. 

"... Laws control the lesser man... Right conduct controls the greater one."

Read into that what you will  

[Sir Smoke aLot]

17 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Your underlying premis is wrong. Your point is slanted and biased. And yet... and yet... I find myself agreeing with the thrust of your post ? 

I will immediately seek medical attention  

It's pure realism and we all have deep affection for it  

No need to hurry with that visit, enjoy for a while 

17 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

"... Laws control the lesser man... Right conduct controls the greater one."

Read into that what you will  

It's perfectly clear, in this respect history always repeats itself.

[bmk1245]

Free Palestine!, Out Jordan from free Palestine!

[Sir Smoke aLot]

This is what would be left of West Bank if Netanyahu does as he promised.

Kinda similar to what has already happened to Gaza and West Bank.

Very effective way to beat your opposition. First you separate territory into enclaves and then finish the job either by military force or by political scams. We should remember how most of Palestinian territory was taken over the years and there is similar patter here too.

Let's assume that Netanyahu's plan is fulfilled and that there are now many Israelis living in ''blue territory'' which is marked on this map. Israel annexed it, world community disagrees with the decision. Political web of intrigue is created. Given enough time who could argue that Israelis should leave after one or two generations? Would it be possible for them to make legal claim over those parts of West Bank, 50 years from now?

That is precisely what has happened to large parts of Jerusalem and other occupied territories, especially after 1967.

Is it not enough that life for ordinary Palestinians is hard already? To go to school they have to pass by numerous road blocks and security checks. Trip to school or work takes over 6 hours for some Palestinians and it is not always successful trip at all. Can't even imagine what would happen to civilian life if Netanyahu actually tries to implement his wishes on the ground.

[RoofGardener]

On 9/15/2019 at 8:26 PM, Sir Smoke aLot said:

This is what would be left of West Bank if Netanyahu does as he promised.

Kinda similar to what has already happened to Gaza and West Bank.

Gaza ? Huh ? That is under Palestinian control. Israel hasn't occupied any part of it ?

[Sir Smoke aLot]

2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Gaza ? Huh ? That is under Palestinian control. Israel hasn't occupied any part of it ?

No man, look at that as intended, in respect to plans in which West Bank would be broken in two pieces, just like what happened to Palestinian territories in 1946 and following years.

Separated territory can not survive and will eventually be fully incorporated in Israel as was the case of northern parts and separation of Gaza. Gaza is closed off and Israel can simply ignore Gaza, for now.

When they deal with West Bank, Gaza will fall silently.

[RoofGardener]

6 hours ago, Sir Smoke aLot said:

No man, look at that as intended, in respect to plans in which West Bank would be broken in two pieces, just like what happened to Palestinian territories in 1946 and following years.

Separated territory can not survive and will eventually be fully incorporated in Israel as was the case of northern parts and separation of Gaza. Gaza is closed off and Israel can simply ignore Gaza, for now.

When they deal with West Bank, Gaza will fall silently.

I'm... a bit confused here @Sir Smoke aLot. you APPEAR to have shown a map from the UN proposal for the division of the Levant into separate Arab and Jewish sections ? 

Gaza was always an isolated area... so much so that Egypt invaded it and .. for a while.. annexed it ? (just as Jordan did with the "west bank" )

Could you explain the point you're trying to make by posting this map ?  

 

[Sir Smoke aLot]

On 9/17/2019 at 8:02 PM, RoofGardener said:

I'm... a bit confused here @Sir Smoke aLot. you APPEAR to have shown a map from the UN proposal for the division of the Levant into separate Arab and Jewish sections ? 

Gaza was always an isolated area... so much so that Egypt invaded it and .. for a while.. annexed it ? (just as Jordan did with the "west bank" )

Could you explain the point you're trying to make by posting this map ?  

 

As I've said situation is much easier to deal with for Israel if Palestinians are broken into further enclaves. New plans for annexation are one more step towards making the two state solution impossible - if it already is not impossible for it to be achieved politically.

Placements of settlement blocks and security checkpoints, along with walls also aid such goals and all are later incorporated in de facto Israeli land.

On that map we see what is proposed by the UN. Map is not realistic representation of the situation on the ground. It only represents that which was agreed on politically.