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Black Red Devil

Netanyahu plans to annex the Jordan Valley

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Phaeton80
8 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

I can't control my elected officials, but I am certainly not anti American or anti Semite and I don't think you belevie I am.


Ofcourse I dont Manwon, this was meant tongue in cheek.. given the obvious fact any position that is not in favor of Israel in any way is equated with anti Semitism these days, which is ridiculous as well as disconcerting.

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Black Red Devil
1 hour ago, and then said:

I don't recall demanding that they do.  That thingy that you referenced?  We call that an OPINION.  Odd how mine seem to trigger you consistently.  You should get out more.

You're far off if you think your opinions trigger me.  Be happy, I'm providing you with enlightening new perspectives and they're free.

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Black Red Devil
2 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Going back to the opening post: annexation of the Jordan Valley would certainly be regarded as illegal by the UN. (especially the 35% of it in the Muslim voting block). But I can kinda see Israel's viewpoint on this. After 70 years of peace offers to the Palestinians, their patience has snapped. But what is Israel planning on doing with the 65,000-odd Palestinian Arabs living in the Jordan Valley ? Offer them Israeli citizenship ? 

Have these peace offers included withdrawing from the West Bank, lifting the blockade on Gaza, the Right of Return?  No

As for your final two questions.... good questions.

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Buzz_Light_Year
15 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Have these peace offers included withdrawing from the West Bank, lifting the blockade on Gaza, the Right of Return?  No

As for your final two questions.... good questions.

The only peace the Palestinians desire is for Israel to not exist.

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Black Red Devil
11 minutes ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

The only peace the Palestinians desire is for Israel to not exist.

That tends to happen when you get occupied, suppressed and discriminated against. 

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Black Red Devil

Just to clear any doubts on who recognises who BTW.

In 2011, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said in a speech to the Dutch parliament in the Hague that the Palestinian people recognize Israel's right to exist and they hope the Israeli government will respond by "recognizing the Palestinian state on the borders of the land occupied in 1967."

Israeli government ministers Naftali Bennett and Danny Danon have repeatedly rejected the creation of a Palestinian state, with Bennett stating "I will do everything in my power to make sure they never get a state.

link

But by ll means, don't let facts get in the way and keep peddling the Zionist victimisation theory.  It's good for the US budget.

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Buzz_Light_Year
5 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

That tends to happen when you get occupied, suppressed and discriminated against. 

UN resolution 181. The Jewish people accepted and the Palestinian/Arabs rejected it. The Palestinians could've had their own state with the borders setup at the time of the UN resolution. But they rejected the resolution because they did not want a Jewish state to exist.

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Buzz_Light_Year
7 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Just to clear any doubts on who recognises who BTW.

In 2011, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said in a speech to the Dutch parliament in the Hague that the Palestinian people recognize Israel's right to exist and they hope the Israeli government will respond by "recognizing the Palestinian state on the borders of the land occupied in 1967."

Israeli government ministers Naftali Bennett and Danny Danon have repeatedly rejected the creation of a Palestinian state, with Bennett stating "I will do everything in my power to make sure they never get a state.

link

But by ll means, don't let facts get in the way and keep peddling the Zionist victimisation theory.  It's good for the US budget.

 

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RoofGardener
12 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Just to clear any doubts on who recognises who BTW.

In 2011, Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas said in a speech to the Dutch parliament in the Hague that the Palestinian people recognize Israel's right to exist and they hope the Israeli government will respond by "recognizing the Palestinian state on the borders of the land occupied in 1967."

Israeli government ministers Naftali Bennett and Danny Danon have repeatedly rejected the creation of a Palestinian state, with Bennett stating "I will do everything in my power to make sure they never get a state.

link

But by ll means, don't let facts get in the way and keep peddling the Zionist victimisation theory.  It's good for the US budget.

Well, that's very nice of him @Black Red Devil. However, the fact remains that the PLO constitution refuses to recognise the state of Israel, and specifically denies them the right to exist. And it is the PLO, not the PA that is recognised as speaking for the Palestinian people. (although as Abbas is both head of the PLO and the PA, it's a moot point). 

The PLO was SUPPOSED to change these passages in their constitution as part of the Oslo pre-conditions. They promised to do it. And then they promised again. And then they promised to set up a legal commission to review the constitution in order to make the changes. The commission was never commissioned, never sat, and - of course - the constitution was never changed, despite assurances from Yasser Arrafat that this had been done. He lied then to President Clinton in the Rose garden,  and Abbas lied to the Dutch. 

It's also worth bearing in mind that the PLO has a track record of saying one thing to Western audiences, and an entirely different thing (in Arabic) to the Arab audiences. 

Fact ! :P 

But by all means, don't let these facts get in the way, and keep peddling the Palestinian victimisation theory. :D 

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RoofGardener
1 hour ago, Black Red Devil said:

Have these peace offers included withdrawing from the West Bank, lifting the blockade on Gaza, the Right of Return?  No

As for your final two questions.... good questions.

Yes, yes, and... well.. yes to allowing the ORIGINAL refugees to return. But not their children, grandchildren and great-grand-children, in line with international law and custom. 

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third_eye

Descendants of Israel from over 2000 years ago is allowed to 'return' but not Palestinian descendants from less than a hundred years ago... 

Where is a Roman imperial Centurion when you need one I ask y'all... I mean really... 

~

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Buzz_Light_Year
1 hour ago, third_eye said:

Descendants of Israel from over 2000 years ago is allowed to 'return' but not Palestinian descendants from less than a hundred years ago... 

Where is a Roman imperial Centurion when you need one I ask y'all... I mean really... 

~

Quote

"The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct 'Palestinian people' to oppose Zionism."
-- Zahir Muhsein, PLO executive committee member

There has never ever been a country named Palestine. If you want to know where the word Palestinia originated from look to the Romans.

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third_eye
12 minutes ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

There has never ever been a country named Palestine. If you want to know where the word Palestinia originated from look to the Romans.

That is a novel way to dehumanize all those people who has been living there for generations before the return of those Jews who were more Europeans than Semitic ain't it? 

~

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Buzz_Light_Year
7 minutes ago, third_eye said:

That is a novel way to dehumanize all those people who has been living there for generations before the return of those Jews who were more Europeans than Semitic ain't it? 

~

I wasn't aware that facts were dehumanizing.

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third_eye
14 minutes ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

I wasn't aware that facts were dehumanizing.

So you mean that they're not humans because the facts says that you have no country to recognise them as humans that were living there before the Jews were invited to return after Israel ceased to exist for well over 2000 years? 

You are aware that these are human beings we are referring to, do you not? 

~

Edited by third_eye
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Buzz_Light_Year
9 minutes ago, third_eye said:

So you mean that they're not humans because the facts says that you have no country to recognise them as humans that were living there before the Jews were invited to return after Israel ceased to exist for well over 2000 years? 

You are aware that these are human beings we are referring to, do you not? 

~

I fail to see where you got the idea that I ever said that they were not human.

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third_eye
2 minutes ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

I fail to see where you got the idea that I ever said that they were not human.

And that is why you failed... 

~

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RoofGardener
9 minutes ago, third_eye said:

So you mean that they're not humans because the facts says that you have no country to recognise them as humans that were living there before the Jews were invited to return after Israel ceased to exist for well over 2000 years? 

You are aware that these are human beings we are referring to, do you not? 

~

I don't think anyone would argue that the Arab Palestinians are somehow not human, or would attempt to dehumanize them. Anyone putting forward such a position is sick. 

I think the original refugees SHOULD be allowed to return, providing they become Israeli citizens, and swear not to attempt to overthrow the state. 

To allow their descendants to "return" to a country they have never been to, however, is against all precedent of international law and custom. I do NOT agree with THAT ! 

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Buzz_Light_Year
3 minutes ago, third_eye said:

And that is why you failed... 

~

Failed at what? Definition?

You are from Malaysia and therefore are Malaysian, I'm from the U.S. and that makes me American and the Palestinians are from ..............oops no country called Palestine.

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third_eye
1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

To allow their descendants to "return" to a country they have never been to, however, is against all precedent of international law and custom. I do NOT agree with THAT ! 

And how many of the Jews that "returned" with Operation Solomon applies to that same set of preconditions that you proclaim as agreeable to your judicious sense of international law and custom? 

~

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third_eye
Just now, Buzz_Light_Year said:

Failed at what? Definition?

You are from Malaysia and therefore are Malaysian, I'm from the U.S. and that makes me American and the Palestinians are from ..............oops no country called Palestine.

So what does the region of Palestine refer to and what of the people that populated that region mean to you as it applies to the definition of humankind as it applies to you? 

~

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Buzz_Light_Year
23 minutes ago, third_eye said:

So what does the region of Palestine refer to and what of the people that populated that region mean to you as it applies to the definition of humankind as it applies to you? 

~

Originally it was Judea and Hadrian renamed it to Syria-Palaestina to infuriate and punish the Jews after the Bar-Kochba Revolt. Syrians and the Philistines were mortal enemies of the Jewish people.

Why do you insist on the emotional angle of humankind? Really I fail to see why you think that I would hold them as any less human because by definition there is no such thing as a Palestinian people.

I really don't care who lives there or what they call themselves.

Edited by Buzz_Light_Year

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third_eye
5 minutes ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

Why do you insist on the emotional angle of humankind? Really I fail to see why you think that I would hold them as any less human because by definition there is no such thing as a Palestinian people.

I really don't care who lives there or what they call themselves.

"...no such thing as a Palestinian people. "

I don't know man, maybe the English language has been so skewered since I last learned it that I don't know what it means anymore... 

"emotional"

*sigh*

~

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RoofGardener
42 minutes ago, third_eye said:

And how many of the Jews that "returned" with Operation Solomon applies to that same set of preconditions that you proclaim as agreeable to your judicious sense of international law and custom? 

~

We are talking about two entirely different situations, @third_eye. Israel - as a sovereign nation - is entirely at liberty to set who does - and does not - become citizens, just as - indeed - are the Palestinian Authority when it comes to Palestinians. The issue of "return" is an entirely different thing, as I am sure you are aware. :) 

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RoofGardener
21 minutes ago, third_eye said:

"...no such thing as a Palestinian people. "

I don't know man, maybe the English language has been so skewered since I last learned it that I don't know what it means anymore... 

"emotional"

*sigh*

~

Actually, there is truth in that, @third_eye. The PLO (and to a lesser extent the Israeli's) have used language as a weapon for the last 70 years. 

It is true that - historically - there was never a nation of Palestine. You COULD argue that there WAS a "Palestinian people", in the sense of people living in the geographical area of the Levant. But that would have included jews and (modern day) Jordanians and Syrians. 

Since the mid 1930's, the concept of a Palestinian Nationality started to emerge. The PLO encouraged this concept in the early 1960's as a tactic to garner international support for their resistance to the existence of Israel. Since the mid 1990's, the concept has solidified further with the Oslo accords and the creation of the Palestinian Authority. 

To this day, though, there is no such thing as the "Palestinian Nation". The original hope of the Oslo Accords - before they where betrayed by the PLO - was that there WOULD have been a fully-fledged Palestinian Nation by around 2010. However the PLO - who of course do not WANT a Palestinian Nation unless it includes the destruction of Israel - deliberately scuppered any chance of it emerging.  

Bear in mind that the PLO is a self-perpetuating oligarchy. If a Palestinian Nation emerged, it would demand some sort of peoples representation. And THAT would derail the gravy train for the people making up the PLO. 

Recall that - as part of the Oslo agreement - the Palestinian Authority held elections in 2006. And they have cancelled every single election ever since. 

Edited by RoofGardener

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