Netanyahu plans to annex the Jordan Valley

[third_eye 50,861]

1 minute ago, RoofGardener said:

We are talking about two entirely different situations, @third_eye. Israel - as a sovereign nation - is entirely at liberty to set who does - and does not - become citizens, just as - indeed - are the Palestinian Authority when it comes to Palestinians. The issue of "return" is an entirely different thing, as I am sure you are aware.  

Yes I am, it is you that is unaware of the tenuous state of legality to which your claims falls apart based on the very preset conditions that you validate one set of laws as opposed to another, you state "return" for the jews whereas for the Palestinian people, you fail to see the "return" as giving back as in legally theirs. 

So far as the situation being different, that only applies when it is plucked from what is biblical and what is historical, not always verified or validating as facts much less what is factually verifiable. 

~

There is now a Palestine in the UN, agree or disagreeable to you is irrelevant. 

Legally speaking as in international law. 

~

[Black Red Devil 4,061]

9 hours ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

UN resolution 181. The Jewish people accepted and the Palestinian/Arabs rejected it. The Palestinians could've had their own state with the borders setup at the time of the UN resolution. But they rejected the resolution because they did not want a Jewish state to exist.

Yeah this happened in 1947 after a small minority of people (the Jews) were given most of the land and the more prosperous areas.  Who wouldn't have rejected such a rort.  They were given favorable conditions due to what happened to them in WWII which the Arabs had nothing to do with.

[Black Red Devil 4,061]

9 hours ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

 

In case you're not aware there is a difference between the definition of a 'Jewish State' and the State of Israel.  Israeli population comprises some 20% Arabs and 4% of Christians.  These people would be living in a country which wouldn't recognise other cultures, only the Jewish,  Making Israel a Jewish State was proposed by the Zionists but rejected even by their own Knesset.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Black Red Devil

[Black Red Devil 4,061]

9 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Well, that's very nice of him @Black Red Devil. However, the fact remains that the PLO constitution refuses to recognise the state of Israel, and specifically denies them the right to exist. And it is the PLO, not the PA that is recognised as speaking for the Palestinian people. (although as Abbas is both head of the PLO and the PA, it's a moot point). 

The PLO was SUPPOSED to change these passages in their constitution as part of the Oslo pre-conditions. They promised to do it. And then they promised again. And then they promised to set up a legal commission to review the constitution in order to make the changes. The commission was never commissioned, never sat, and - of course - the constitution was never changed, despite assurances from Yasser Arrafat that this had been done. He lied then to President Clinton in the Rose garden,  and Abbas lied to the Dutch. 

It's also worth bearing in mind that the PLO has a track record of saying one thing to Western audiences, and an entirely different thing (in Arabic) to the Arab audiences. 

Fact !  

But by all means, don't let these facts get in the way, and keep peddling the Palestinian victimisation theory.  

Arafat recognised publicly the right of Israel to exist.  Abbas did so as well.  As of 2019 138 countries recognise a Palestinian State, but Israel never has.  So what are we talking about LOL?

In case you missed it, the thread is about the annexation of land the UN assigned to a Palestinian State.  It's clear the Zionist have no interest whatsover to allow for a Palestinian State to exist. 

[Black Red Devil 4,061]

9 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Yes, yes, and... well.. yes to allowing the ORIGINAL refugees to return. But not their children, grandchildren and great-grand-children, in line with international law and custom. 

Whose International Law?  Maybe the Jewish version.  If they allowed these people to return to their land immediately at the time there wouldn't be great grand children living in refugee camps.

[Black Red Devil 4,061]

5 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

We are talking about two entirely different situations, @third_eye. Israel - as a sovereign nation - is entirely at liberty to set who does - and does not - become citizens, just as - indeed - are the Palestinian Authority when it comes to Palestinians. The issue of "return" is an entirely different thing, as I am sure you are aware.  

Yeah all well and good but they're not even allowed to return to the West Bank or East Jerusalem which is actually recognised Palestinian land.

[Phaeton80 3,960]

10 hours ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

The only peace the Palestinians desire is for Israel to not exist.

 

Way to generalise and thereby dehumanize a whole 70 years+ long militarily occupied, opressed native community.. Nice!

Lets not beat around the bush here, if any political entity on this earth was doing to the Jews what the Jews have been / are doing to the Palestinians, it would be branded evil incarnate and reduced to a cindering wasteland. The main reason the international community hasnt been able to act in regards to Israel's warcrimes against thesame Palestinians, is the structural veto's coming from its symbiot, 'holy partner in crime' (because thats literally what were talking about, crimes), the USA.

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Phaeton80

[Black Red Devil 4,061]

Here's one for Roofy.

ISRAEL AS A JEWISH STATE

On this issue, Palestinians are again significantly more open than the public positions of their political leaders would imply. If Israel “recognizes an independent Palestinian state and ends the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza,” the percentages of Palestinians who would accept Israel as “the state for the Jewish people” are as follows: Gaza, 55 percent; West Bank, 36 percent; and East Jerusalem, 60 percent.

In sharp contrast, PA leaders from President Mahmoud Abbas on down have consistently emphasized that they will “never” agree to any such formulation. Hamas persistently states that it will never recognize Israel at all, let alone its Jewish character. In so saying, both governments are taking a much more rigid stance than is expressed by many of their own people.

link

A year old survey but it appears the younger generation of Palestinians are more willing to 'come to conclusions' and even bypass their old 'leadership' that has got them nowhere in all these years.  Now's it's to be seen if the Jews are ready to ditch the detrimental Zionists in power.  The up and coming elections will tell.

[Buzz_Light_Year 4,238]

17 minutes ago, Phaeton80 said:

 

Way to generalise and thereby dehumanize a whole 70 years+ long militarily occupied, opressed native community.. Nice!

Lets not beat around the bush here, if any political entity on this earth was doing to the Jews what the Jews have been / are doing to the Palestinians, it would be branded evil incarnate and reduced to a cindering wasteland. The main reason the international community hasnt been able to act in regards to Israel's warcrimes against thesame Palestinians, is the structural veto's coming from its symbiot, 'holy partner in crime' (because thats literally what were talking about, crimes), the USA.

 

So if I say the same things the Palestinians say somehow I'm dehumanizing them.

How many Arab and Palestinian quotes do you want me to post to prove the following statement?

Quote

The only peace the Palestinians desire is for Israel to not exist.

Quote

UN resolution 181. The Jewish people accepted and the Palestinian/Arabs rejected it. The Palestinians could've had their own state with the borders setup at the time of the UN resolution. But they rejected the resolution because they did not want a Jewish state to exist.

When the resolution was rejected an Arab coalition attacked Israel to eradicate the new state from the face of the earth. You do know about the Arab Israeli war of 49 do you not? Who were the aggressors? Israel? Of course they were.

Even Abbas says the Arab rejection of the UN resolution was a mistake.

[Phaeton80 3,960]

Quote

How many Arab and Palestinian quotes do you want me to post to prove the following statement?

Youd need to get me quotes of every single Palestinian for you to prove what you said is not a generalisation (and thereby an attempt at criminalisation of every Palestinian). Good luck.

 

[and then 46,993]

8 hours ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

I fail to see where you got the idea that I ever said that they were not human.

You didn't he has a penchant for using his verbosity to leave people blinking in confusion.  

[Black Red Devil 4,061]

1 hour ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

When the resolution was rejected an Arab coalition attacked Israel to eradicate the new state from the face of the earth. You do know about the Arab Israeli war of 49 do you not? Who were the aggressors? Israel? Of course they were.

Even Abbas says the Arab rejection of the UN resolution was a mistake.

In 1880 under the Turks there were 20k Jews and 280k Arabs (Jews were 6% of tot pop) living relatively peaceful together in Palestine.  Before the turn of 1900 the Zionists promoted immigration to Palestine (Herzl actually called it such) to form a Jewish State. In 1917 at the end of WWI there were 70k Jews due to Zionist immigration which suited the Turks when it was under their dominion because they brought a wealthy contribution.  There were 600k Arabs (Jews were 10% of tot pop) at the time.

After the Balfour Declaration and under the British Mandate until the end of WWII they allowed massive Jewish immigration to Palestine.  Jews totaled 630k and Arabs 1180k (Jews were 34% of the tot pop).  This is where all the trouble started because the Arabs started realising what was happening.  The Partition plan by the UN under British Administration gave the Jews 56% of the land, the most arable part, despite having only 34% of the population and most of these Jews were from European background (mostly Eastern) than Middle Eastern while the Palestinians were native to the land for generations.

It's like if Mexicans massively migrated to Texas over 50 years because they felt the land is their God given rightful home and after 50 years the UN decides to partition it by giving 56% of the best land to the Mexicans despite Americans being three quarters of the population.  I'm pretty sure even you'd be picking up your pop gun and strolling into battle wouldn't you?  After all, you guys like to shoot your guns off for all other reasons.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Black Red Devil

[RoofGardener 17,370]

10 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Arafat recognised publicly the right of Israel to exist.  Abbas did so as well.  As of 2019 138 countries recognise a Palestinian State, but Israel never has.  So what are we talking about LOL?

In case you missed it, the thread is about the annexation of land the UN assigned to a Palestinian State.  It's clear the Zionist have no interest whatsover to allow for a Palestinian State to exist. 

Yes, they both did. But they do not have the authority to unilaterally change the Constitution (which is what would be required to formally recognise Israel's right to exist). Ergo, they both lied. 

And you are right about the annexation.. but I've already addressed that issue earlier  

[RoofGardener 17,370]

10 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Whose International Law?  Maybe the Jewish version.  If they allowed these people to return to their land immediately at the time there wouldn't be great grand children living in refugee camps.

True, but you have to bear in mind that "the palestinians" where at war with Israel at the time this happened. They would be letting back in potential insurgents. In addition, Israel was already taking in about 800,000 immigrants - Jews that had been evicted from the surrounding Arab nations. Initially, it didn't have the capacity to allow the refugees to return. 

Nobody ever talks about that. 

[RoofGardener 17,370]

10 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Yeah all well and good but they're not even allowed to return to the West Bank or East Jerusalem which is actually recognised Palestinian land.

They ARE allowed to "return", @Black Red Devil, except that the PLO prefers to keep them all in refugee camps. 

Yes, you read that right. The PLO has interned all the "palestinian" refugees into refugee camps. They are keeping Palestinians prisoner in Palestine. They forbid them from mingling with the general population and settling down. Did you know this ? 

As for East Jerusalem.. well.. that IS true. Israel has effectively annexed it, having taken it back from the Jordanians in 1967. That IS against international law, but I've got sympathy for them in that case. The city SHOULD belong to them. The PLO claim on it is entirely vexatious. 

[RoofGardener 17,370]

10 hours ago, Black Red Devil said:

Here's one for Roofy.

ISRAEL AS A JEWISH STATE

On this issue, Palestinians are again significantly more open than the public positions of their political leaders would imply. If Israel “recognizes an independent Palestinian state and ends the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza,” the percentages of Palestinians who would accept Israel as “the state for the Jewish people” are as follows: Gaza, 55 percent; West Bank, 36 percent; and East Jerusalem, 60 percent.

In sharp contrast, PA leaders from President Mahmoud Abbas on down have consistently emphasized that they will “never” agree to any such formulation. Hamas persistently states that it will never recognize Israel at all, let alone its Jewish character. In so saying, both governments are taking a much more rigid stance than is expressed by many of their own people.

link

A year old survey but it appears the younger generation of Palestinians are more willing to 'come to conclusions' and even bypass their old 'leadership' that has got them nowhere in all these years.  Now's it's to be seen if the Jews are ready to ditch the detrimental Zionists in power.  The up and coming elections will tell.

That IS very interesting, @Black Red Devil, and very encouraging. Sadly, however, neither the Palestinian Authority or HAMAS are democratic institutions, they are self-selected oligarchies. Accordingly, they are not required to listen to public opinion, because the "public" isn't able to vote them out ! If the PLO/PA where elected, and had to listen to the opinions of their constituents, then we would probably have had peace - and a Palestinian State - many decades ago. 

[Black Red Devil 4,061]

4 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

True, but you have to bear in mind that "the palestinians" where at war with Israel at the time this happened. They would be letting back in potential insurgents. In addition, Israel was already taking in about 800,000 immigrants - Jews that had been evicted from the surrounding Arab nations. Initially, it didn't have the capacity to allow the refugees to return. 

Nobody ever talks about that. 

Maybe you don't realise it but this is a clear indication of an Occupation.  It's a clear intent of a country to occupy land of another country.  Just think about it.

[RoofGardener 17,370]

5 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Maybe you don't realise it but this is a clear indication of an Occupation.  It's a clear intent of a country to occupy land of another country.  Just think about it.

"..another country" ? 

What country ? And which territory are you reffering to ? (I'm a bit confused ? ). 

Edited September 13, 2019 by RoofGardener

[Black Red Devil 4,061]

4 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

They ARE allowed to "return", @Black Red Devil, except that the PLO prefers to keep them all in refugee camps. 

Yes, you read that right. The PLO has interned all the "palestinian" refugees into refugee camps. They are keeping Palestinians prisoner in Palestine. They forbid them from mingling with the general population and settling down. Did you know this ? 

As for East Jerusalem.. well.. that IS true. Israel has effectively annexed it, having taken it back from the Jordanians in 1967. That IS against international law, but I've got sympathy for them in that case. The city SHOULD belong to them. The PLO claim on it is entirely vexatious. 

C'mon mate.    You're talking to me.  Israel fully controls Area C (61% of the West Bank), Area B (28% of the West Bank) is jointly controlled militarily by Israel and the PA (but guess who decides) and Area A (11%) is under Palestinian control but constantly subject to Israeli incursions.  Israel has most Administrative control over most of the Areas and Governorates of what remains of the Palestinian territory in the West Bank while the remaining parts (such as Area A & 'B' are administered by Fatah who's officials are bought off by the Israeli's to do what they're told.  While in Gaza the area is administered by Hamas but you couldn't even swing a cat there so there is no chance they could resettle refugees.

Edited September 13, 2019 by Black Red Devil

[Black Red Devil 4,061]

22 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

"..another country" ? 

What country ? And which territory are you reffering to ? (I'm a bit confused ? ). 

The Palestinian State and it's territories.  By definition it would be another country or no?

[RoofGardener 17,370]

1 minute ago, Black Red Devil said:

C'mon mate.    You're talking to me.  Israel fully controls Area C (61% of the West Bank), Area B (28% of the West Bank) is jointly controlled militarily by Israel and the PA (but guess who decides) and Area A (11%) is under Palestinian control but constantly subject to Israeli incursions.  Israel has most Administrative control over most of the Areas and Governorates of what remains of the Palestinian territory in the West Bank while the remaining parts (such as Area A & are administered by Fatah who's officials are bought off by the Israeli's to do what they're told.  While in Gaza the area is administered by Hamas but you couldn't even swing a cat there so there is no chance they could resettle refugees.

They HAVE resettled refugees. But they've resettled them into refugee camps. 

There is AMPLE space in the West Bank for refugees, but the PLO doesn't WANT the refugees to re-settle. They WANT to keep the refugee issue as an open running sore. So they imprison their OWN people in refugee camps. 

I bet you didn't know that ? 

[Black Red Devil 4,061]

4 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

That IS very interesting, @Black Red Devil, and very encouraging. Sadly, however, neither the Palestinian Authority or HAMAS are democratic institutions, they are self-selected oligarchies. Accordingly, they are not required to listen to public opinion, because the "public" isn't able to vote them out ! If the PLO/PA where elected, and had to listen to the opinions of their constituents, then we would probably have had peace - and a Palestinian State - many decades ago. 

Well you're a pessimist. 

[RoofGardener 17,370]

Just now, Black Red Devil said:

The Palestinian State and it's territories.  By definition it would be another country or no?

No, by definition (back in 1967 when the 'occupation' started), there WAS no "Palestinian State". Indeed, there never had been at any time in history. The only time that "Palestine" was considered a "country" was back when the Kingdom of Israel existed. Ever since then, it has been an occupied province of one or another of various imperial powers. (the Romans, the Babylonians, various others.... the Ottomans, the Mandate (the UK and France) and finally... Israel again  

[RoofGardener 17,370]

2 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Well you're a pessimist. 

Hmm..... any student of the PLO and its behaviour becomes a pessimist  

I mean.. I hope you're right, and that there is a popular uprising and an "Arab Spring" in the occupied territories. But any uprising would likely result in a bloodbath as the PLO turns its AK47's on its own people. 

[Black Red Devil 4,061]

3 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

They HAVE resettled refugees. But they've resettled them into refugee camps. 

There is AMPLE space in the West Bank for refugees, but the PLO doesn't WANT the refugees to re-settle. They WANT to keep the refugee issue as an open running sore. So they imprison their OWN people in refugee camps. 

I bet you didn't know that ? 

I initially said they were in refugee camps but I disagree with the reasons you imply. I've broken down the legitimacy of the rulings in Area's A, B & C for you and with different degrees they are subject to Israeli control, militarily and administratively.  While Gaza has no space.  It's Israel who doesn't want a few million extra Palestinians within it's occupied territories and guess why?