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Doug1o29

9/11

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Desertrat56

Well said Doug.

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Not A Rockstar

So, the consensus you are going for is that we should have just put the fires out and let it go. Everything that was done was wrong, and America sucks. 

Got it.

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Robotic Jew

Well said. 

"If peace paid we'd have it made by now, we'd have it new and improved by now..." Todd Snider

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freetoroam
11 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

Are you safer from terrorists? 

They come in all shapes, sizes, colours and religions. I know one thing if taken  off that list which would make the world a safer place, clue: its not shapes, sizes or colours.

13 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

Do you think these wars were necessary and successful? 

It will depend on who you ask.

The military.

Innocent civilians going about their everyday lives.

Or

Islamic fundamentalists.

Or 

Bush and Bl'iar.

.

 

19 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

How much more money are we going to spend? 

Billions because the military are given the reins to do what ever they want. That includes starting wars.

28 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

What have we given up to pay for these wars? 

The right to be important when the military and government are concerned. 

They need your money, but they certainly do not need innocent people. Innocent people only become an issue when its their people killed because the war the governments have got into could not protect them. 

The innocent people from the other side mean nothing!!! And visa versa.

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Desertrat56
2 minutes ago, Not A Rockstar said:

So, the consensus you are going for is that we should have just put the fires out and let it go. Everything that was done was wrong, and America sucks. 

Got it.

9-11 was just an excuse, like the 80's when we had ships in the middle east and troops on the ground with the patriot missle unit deployed in early spring but the whole thing kept secret until some reporter asked why we had several air craft carriers off the coast of saudi arabia.  We have been fighting in that area and Afghanistan and Africa for decades.  So, the Taliban and ISIS are just excuses.  We need to call it what it is, a war machine that has no real ideology, just destruction for the control of a certain area in the world we have no business controlling.

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odas
34 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

3000 people died in the Twin Towers.

In the ensuing wars we killed 31,000 Afghani civilians and 183,000 Iraqi civilians.

About 7000 US servicemen and 8000 contractors (American mercenaries).have died.

Total war dead is over a million people.

The wars have cost $6 trillion with no end in sight.

ISIS and Al Queda are thriving, fed by recruits the wars have provided.

Are you safer from terrorists?  Do you think these wars were necessary and successful?  How many more have to die to make you feel that way?  How many more Americans will come home with broken minds and bodies?  How much more money are we going to spend?  What have we given up to pay for these wars?  Health care?  National Parks?  New bridges?  Better highways?  Quality schools?  Feeding ALL our people?

Eighteen years of money spent and lives lost.  Eighteen years of suspecting our neighbors and justifying racism.

bin Laden won.  We lost.

Doug

We all lost. There is no winner. Once we realize that we are used in a quarrel between those in power for deals went wrong, once we stop following religious, natinalists and political nutcases we will start winning again.

 

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aztek
3 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

9-11 was just an excuse, like the 80's when we had ships in the middle east and troops on the ground with the patriot missle unit deployed in early spring but the whole thing kept secret until some reporter asked why we had several air craft carriers off the coast of saudi arabia.  We have been fighting in that area and Afghanistan and Africa for decades.  So, the Taliban and ISIS are just excuses.  We need to call it what it is, a war machine that has no real ideology, just destruction for the control of a certain area in the world we have no business controlling.

yea, it is called geopolitics, it exists since man exist. and i have 0 doubt if any other country was in our shoes, had our capability, they would do the same exact thing.  there is no such thing as benevolent  giants in political world. 

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OverSword

This seems like a good thread to ignore on this particular day.

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sci-nerd
1 hour ago, Doug1o29 said:

Do you think these wars were necessary and successful?

Afghanistan was unfortunately necessary. Not doing it, would be like not removing a hornets nest from a kindergarten. It was just.

Iraq, on the other hand, was a huge mistake, and a tragedy that surpasses 9/11 itself.

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Dark_Grey
15 minutes ago, OverSword said:

This seems like a good thread to ignore on this particular day.

What else can be said that hasn't already been said? You could spend a lifetime reading reports on 9/11 before even touching the politics behind it. 

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Doug1o29
1 hour ago, Not A Rockstar said:

So, the consensus you are going for is that we should have just put the fires out and let it go. Everything that was done was wrong, and America sucks. 

Got it.

I'm not saying we were right or wrong.  But with 20/20 hindsight, our actions did not produce the results we wantede.  And that is the definition of defeat.

And America does not suck.  But some of our "leaders" are incredibly stupid.

Doug

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Doug1o29
35 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

Afghanistan was unfortunately necessary. Not doing it, would be like not removing a hornets nest from a kindergarten. It was just.

And we did it.  And we still lost.  How is that an improvement on using the FBI/CIA to round up and/or assasinate the terrorists?  Fewer "acidental" deaths.

Doug

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Liquid Gardens
1 minute ago, Doug1o29 said:

But some of our "leaders" are incredibly stupid.

What should our leaders have done then?  Not invade Iraq is a given although the ties between that and 9/11 are pretty loose anyway, but without relying at all on 18 years of hindsight what would have been the 'smart' thing to do?

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sci-nerd
7 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

And we did it.  And we still lost.  How is that an improvement on using the FBI/CIA to round up and/or assasinate the terrorists?  Fewer "acidental" deaths.

How many jihadists have been trained in Afghanistan the past 18 years? That's right. Barely any. So it worked.

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Hammerclaw

History happens and armchair historians and aficionados second guess. Hypothetically, you can talk any war into not having to happen--but they did. What we are left to deal with, that we can do something about, is their repercussions rippling out from the then of them to the now.

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Doug1o29
13 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

History happens and armchair historians and aficionados second guess. Hypothetically, you can talk any war into not having to happen--but they did. What we are left to deal with, that we can do something about, is their repercussions rippling out from the then of them to the now.

Would that we had done so back in 2001.

Doug

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Doug1o29
16 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

How many jihadists have been trained in Afghanistan the past 18 years? That's right. Barely any. So it worked.

So how many have been trained in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Libya, Syria ...

Wars and jihadists are not constrained by international boundaries.

Doug

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sci-nerd
1 minute ago, Doug1o29 said:

So how many have been trained in Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Libya, Syria ...

Wars and jihadists are not constrained by international boundaries.

Back to my hornets nest analogy. Should we just have left it alone, because new nests would emerge other places? Of course not! It had to be dealt with!

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aztek
32 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

I'm not saying we were right or wrong.  But with 20/20 hindsight, our actions did not produce the results we wantede.  And that is the definition of defeat.

And America does not suck.  But some of our "leaders" are incredibly stupid.

Doug

they were never meant to accomplish what YOU wanted.  wars have achieved exactly what they were set out to achieve. 

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Doug1o29
5 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

Back to my hornets nest analogy. Should we just have left it alone, because new nests would emerge other places? Of course not! It had to be dealt with!

We did not have to deal with it by bombing civilians.  We could have used special forces and CIA to infiltrate terrorist cells and destroy them.  We could have seized their bank accounts.  We could cut off their support by negotiating with Iran in good faith.

Doug

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Hammerclaw
15 minutes ago, Doug1o29 said:

Would that we had done so back in 2001.

Doug

Why not even earlier, when the Clinton administration disregarded reports of Arabian Nationals training in flight simulators? What's done is done and history hasn't changed. The world is no more and no less dangerous. The problem is that the only history people care about is the history they live through. Our military is volunteer. Folks who don't want to risk coming home in a body bag, or crippled and maimed, don't have to join it. I'm grateful for the ones who love their country and do. With power comes responsibility, for what we accomplish and our mistakes. It's a great burden on the shoulders of the brave few that do so choose and no burden at all on yours or mine. So, lighten up and be grateful you don't live in more interesting times.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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sci-nerd
1 minute ago, Doug1o29 said:

We did not have to deal with it by bombing civilians.  We could have used special forces and CIA to infiltrate terrorist cells and destroy them.  We could have seized their bank accounts.  We could cut off their support by negotiating with Iran in good faith.

I remember those days like it was yesterday. The thirst for revenge. If a war had not been started, people would have overthrown the US government. It was required!

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Doug1o29
7 minutes ago, aztek said:

they were never meant to accomplish what YOU wanted.  wars have achieved exactly what they were set out to achieve. 

What I wanted was safety from terrorist attacks.  Did you want something else?  What, exactly were the military's stated objectives on the day they dropped the first bomb - that's right, they didn't have any.  If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.

 

I recall a speech by W.  Behind him were pictures of ships putting out to sea.  There were bagpipes playing a tune behind Bush's voice-over.  It was "A Scottish Soldier," also known as "Green Hills of Tyrol."  It's a retreat march and like most bagpipe tunes, carries a message.  It is about your sons dying on foreign soil.  I don't know who picked the tune, but the message was clear to those who spoke the langauge:  your sons will die far from home.  About 15,000 of them to date.

Doug

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aztek
Just now, Doug1o29 said:

What I wanted was safety from terrorist attacks.  ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

and what cost are you willing to pay?

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