Red Flag Laws and Due Process

[Grim Reaper 6]

10 hours ago, and then said:

Here's the difference between us on this.  I am a gun owner, a U.S. citizen with UNALIENABLE RIGHTS that my forebears fought and died to defend.  I am not now nor would I EVER be a premeditated murderer.  I will not yield my rights to a corrupt government in exchange for some perceived "safety" for myself or others.  People who think that outlawing a semi-automatic rifle primarily due to its APPEARANCE, is going to stop evil people from killing with guns, are deluded and they will quickly be proven to be deluded.

So, Manwon, when the next person decides to take that ride to fame by mowing down 15 or 20 human beings with say, a Ruger 10-22 or a Glock 43 or an FN Five Seven, what then?  What scary weapon will you next hand over to your government?  Are you aware that FAR more people are killed with semi-auto handguns than long guns?  Only about 2-3 percent of gun deaths are due to rifles and shotguns.

No, Manwon, I won't ignore the obvious next step in this game and those who do are just fools.  I'm not a gambler but if I were I'd bet BIG money that the call to ban all semi-autos will follow the next big tragedy where guns are used.

I am also a US Citizen,  a gun owner, and I have the same rights that you do. I also would not ever be a premeditated murder. So how do we differ except in our opinions, which we both are entitled to. Other than opinions we are the same.

[Tatetopa]

2 hours ago, aztek said:

what are your plans for the rape tool you have between your legs?

Great question my friend,   It is a multi-use tool like a hunting rifle or a pistol used for self defense.  It is not specifically designed for rape and that is the difference between a penis which can be used for useful and sometimes benevolent things and assault weapons which are specifically designed to kill large numbers of civilians with no other practical use.  

So my question still stands, if you own a weapon only useful for killing civilians, what do you plan to do with it?  Maybe you have an answer that I don't know.

[spartan max2]

13 hours ago, Hankenhunter said:

No, you didn't. What you did is post what's called an end run. Words have consequences, and a lot of people are finding out what those consequences are. Reporting armed and very unstable people is a natural evolution when guns become more important than innocent peoples lives. Your post was insincere from beginning to end and deserved a berating.

I am neither disgusting, nor small minded. Small minded is refusing to accede too some simple and common sense gun restrictions for the greater good because of some infantile fear of your fellow man.

I think you are missing the point of the thread.

He is asking is it possible to enact red flag laws and protect people's due process at the same time?

Personally I think it would just work similar to how we are able to "pink slip" people to the mental hospital if they seem a threat to themselves and others and are unhinged. 

[Hankenhunter]

Just now, Tatetopa said:

Great question my friend,   It is a multi-use tool like a hunting rifle or a pistol used for self defense.  It is not specifically designed for rape and that is the difference between a penis which can be used for useful and sometimes benevolent things and assault weapons which are specifically designed to kill large numbers of civilians with no other practical use.  

So my question still stands, if you own a weapon only useful for killing civilians, what do you plan to do with it?  Maybe you have an answer that I don't know.

Or don't want to know. He thinks turning a blind eye is the best policy. As long a as HIS kith and kin aren't shot and killed, everything will be hunky dory.

[Hankenhunter]

4 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I think you are missing the point of the thread.

He is asking is it possible to enact red flag laws and protect people's due process at the same time?

Personally I think it would just work similar to how we are able to "pink slip" people to the mental hospital if they seem a threat to themselves and others and are unhinged. 

You might have a point if I didn't have access to his posting history. Cold dead hands, remember?

Edited September 14, 2019 by Hankenhunter

[spartan max2]

5 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Great question my friend,   It is a multi-use tool like a hunting rifle or a pistol used for self defense.  It is not specifically designed for rape and that is the difference between a penis which can be used for useful and sometimes benevolent things and assault weapons which are specifically designed to kill large numbers of civilians with no other practical use.  

So my question still stands, if you own a weapon only useful for killing civilians, what do you plan to do with it?  Maybe you have an answer that I don't know.

I use it to protect myself 

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, Gunn said:

Not speaking for And Then, Tat, but any one of those are nice to have along for self defense against panthers, cougars, grizzly bears when hunting for deer or elk. A hunter may only need a single bolt action for the deer, because you can take your time shooting and hone your aim, but that doesn't always work with a 500 pound bear charging at you in a close encounter, when you are in a panic and one shot doesn't stop the sucker from coming at you to maul you to death. Try to imagine shooting at bear coming at you with seconds to spare, and you are using a single bolt action rifle. You better be cool as a cucumber and a damn good shot. Most people are not in those situations.

I am picking on andthen a little because it was his statement and often he has a thoughtful answer that I can honestly say makes me pause and think.

A very good point Gunn.  Most of the hunters I know carry a large caliber pistol for that purpose. I don't think the friends I have that actually get bear and cougar tags as often as they can take assault rifles along, and they are planning for an encounter.    I have been in bear country and seen cougar tracks on top of my own trail so I know it was following me, but I have not been attacked, so I consider myself lucky.  Cougars have stayed out about 100 feet and the closest I have come to a bear was about 30 feet.  My fault, we were working around the same huckleberry bushes in opposite directions.  If I was attacked, I would be in trouble. 

To be honest, I have been in the woods a lot, but would not qualify myself as a hunter.  I have hunted a couple of dozen  times over the years and  owned rifles and shotguns since I was a kid but I don't have the passion for it some do.  I would never kill a bear if I could avoid it,  they look too human when they are skinned.

I will defer to the serious hunters on the board for a more definitive answer, 

How many people that own assault rifles use them for hunting?

[Tatetopa]

27 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

use it to protect myself 

Good response, from what may I ask?  

A biker co-worker of mine told me once that a sawed off shotgun is the best protection in your house because you can shoot somebody without the pellets penetrating several layers of sheet rock and hitting your kids.  

[Hankenhunter]

7 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

I am picking on andthen a little because it was his statement and often he has a thoughtful answer that I can honestly say makes me pause and think.

A very good point Gunn.  Most of the hunters I know carry a large caliber pistol for that purpose. I don't think the friends I have that actually get bear and cougar tags as often as they can take assault rifles along, and they are planning for an encounter.    I have been in bear country and seen cougar tracks on top of my own trail so I know it was following me, but I have not been attacked, so I consider myself lucky.  Cougars have stayed out about 100 feet and the closest I have come to a bear was about 30 feet.  My fault, we were working around the same huckleberry bushes in opposite directions.  If I was attacked, I would be in trouble. 

To be honest, I have been in the woods a lot, but would not qualify myself as a hunter.  I have hunted a couple of dozen  times over the years and  owned rifles and shotguns since I was a kid but I don't have the passion for it some do.  I would never kill a bear if I could avoid it,  they look too human when they are skinned.

I will defer to the serious hunters on the board for a more definitive answer, 

How many people that own assault rifles use them for hunting?

45 years with the same .303 bolt action rifle. Bear, deer, moose have all fallen before it. Not once was I ever scared of being attacked by anything. Ten years ago, I gave up the rifle and switched to a crossbow. Same results only much closer encounters. I live in grizzly country on the west coast.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Hankenhunter

[Tatetopa]

If we can't figure this out we join the ranks of Afghanistan, the ISIS Caliphate, Honduras, Somalia and other sh**hole countries where civilian life is shadowed by daily violence against strangers.

[Tatetopa]

Just now, Hankenhunter said:

45 years with the same .303 bolt action rifle. Bear, deer, moose have all fallen before it. Not once was I ever scared of being attacked by anything. I live in grizzly country on the west coast.

Black bears down where I live, so mostly they run if they sense you coming.  Here there is more danger from cougars in suburban areas.  Young males get driven out of mom's territory and head for the dog and cat buffet around people.

[aztek]

1 hour ago, Hankenhunter said:

Stay on topic. Your fantasies have nothing to do with and then's op.

stay off drugs, 

[Hankenhunter]

1 minute ago, Tatetopa said:

Black bears down where I live, so mostly they run if they sense you coming.  Here there is more danger from cougars in suburban areas.  Young males get driven out of mom's territory and head for the dog and cat buffet around people.

Same here. We had to station hunters at the schools when the deer population crashed. But ordinary hunting rifles and shotguns were used, not rapid firing semi-automatics.

[Hankenhunter]

5 minutes ago, aztek said:

stay off drugs, 

Thanks for the sage advise,but your still off topic.

[aztek]

6 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

Thanks for the sage advise,but your still off topic.

[Gunn]

1 hour ago, Hankenhunter said:

Your hypotheticals are just that. I can't imagine how First nations and pioneers managed to survive using primitive hunting bows, and single shot rifles with all those dangerous beasts that were far more populous than today.((sarc.) 

Hypotheticals? Survive? So nobody ever died from bear attacks in the historical past and in modern times? I suppose those hunters and settlers just mauled themselves to death? Get real! Not everyone of them survived, especially a close encounter with a grizzly, and the ones that did got damn lucky.

 

32 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

I am picking on andthen a little because it was his statement and often he has a thoughtful answer that I can honestly say makes me pause and think.

A very good point Gunn.  Most of the hunters I know carry a large caliber pistol for that purpose. I don't think the friends I have that actually get bear and cougar tags as often as they can take assault rifles along, and they are planning for an encounter.    I have been in bear country and seen cougar tracks on top of my own trail so I know it was following me, but I have not been attacked, so I consider myself lucky.  Cougars have stayed out about 100 feet and the closest I have come to a bear was about 30 feet.  My fault, we were working around the same huckleberry bushes in opposite directions.  If I was attacked, I would be in trouble. 

To be honest, I have been in the woods a lot, but would not qualify myself as a hunter.  I have hunted a couple of dozen  times over the years and  owned rifles and shotguns since I was a kid but I don't have the passion for it some do.  I would never kill a bear if I could avoid it,  they look too human when they are skinned.

I will defer to the serious hunters on the board for a more definitive answer, 

How many people that own assault rifles use them for hunting?

Well don't get me wrong, I never used semi-autos for hunting myself, too easy and takes away from the sport of the hunt. But if you are hunting or just going a brisk walk in the woods, you want to carry a semi-auto with you just to stop predators from even touching you if you see them coming at you in time. Claws and teeth are like jagged knives.

 

[Gunn]

29 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

45 years with the same .303 bolt action rifle. Bear, deer, moose have all fallen before it. Not once was I ever scared of being attacked by anything. Ten years ago, I gave up the rifle and switched to a crossbow. Same results only much closer encounters. I live in grizzly country on the west coast.

That's you Mr. supposed Super Hunter, that don't mean it's the same or always going to be same results for everyone else.

[Hankenhunter]

21 minutes ago, Gunn said:

Hypotheticals? Survive? So nobody ever died from bear attacks in the historical past and in modern times? I suppose those hunters and settlers just mauled themselves to death? Get real! Not everyone of them survived, especially a close encounter with a grizzly, and the ones that did got damn lucky.

 

Well don't get me wrong, I never used semi-autos for hunting myself, too easy and takes away from the sport of the hunt. But if you are hunting or just going a brisk walk in the woods, you want to carry a semi-auto with you just to stop predators from even touching you if you see them coming at you in time. Claws and teeth are like jagged knives.

 

The fear is dripping from your post. Why? The odds of being attacked are so remote as to be negligible. The odds of being killed by wildlife are even more remote. I lived in the biggest concentration of cougars and black bears in the world for twenty years, and no one packed firearms for protection except to protect the kids at school when the deer pop. crashed.  Thousands of unarmed forestry workers are out each year marking out cut blocks yet no one is attacked.Your fear is groundless.

Edited September 14, 2019 by Hankenhunter

[Michelle]

If I may ask, do people in other countries not have home burglar alarms or bars on the windows in lower income areas, car alarms, smoke detectors, fire extinguishers, life jackets on boats, food/water prepared for a natural disaster, first aid kits, extra batteries with flash lights, tools for emergency repairs,...etc?

Even the most ardent ant-gun activists have admitted they have one or two for self protection.

Edited September 15, 2019 by Michelle

[Gunn]

1 hour ago, Hankenhunter said:

The fear is dripping from your post. Why? The odds of being attacked are so remote as to be negligible. The odds of being killed by wildlife are even more remote. I lived in the biggest concentration of cougars and black bears in the world for twenty years, and no one packed firearms for protection except to protect the kids at school when the deer pop. crashed. 

That all may be, but it still happens. And you can't 100% guarantee that any one of us will not be one of those in the odds. Yeah - It's never happened to me so far, but it did happen to one of my uncles, thankfully he survived. That is why we carry a semi-auto, better to be safe, then trust our luck and be sorry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America

https://www.wideopenspaces.com/list-fatal-black-bear-attacks-north-america-last-20-years/

Quote

Thousands of unarmed forestry workers are out each year marking out cut blocks yet no one is attacked.Your fear is groundless.

Ah huh. But what you don't mention is those forest workers usually work in groups, predators don't hang around groups of people just waiting to attack one of them, and I've seen armed U.S. Game Wardens/ Rangers near those groups of forest workers too. And another thing you don't mention - is if a forest worker happens to be alone, out deep in the forest, they have a big ass dog with them like a husky, so they can run like a bat out of hell and let the dog become the bait during an attack. So do you have a dog with you, except for duck and rabbit hunting, every time you go hunting? I don't and for obvious reasons when I hunt.

 

[aztek]

1 hour ago, Michelle said:

If I may ask, do people in other countries not have home burglar alarms or bars on the windows in lower income areas, car alarms, smoke detectors, fire extinguishers, life jackets on boats, food/water prepared for a natural disaster, first aid kits, extra batteries with flash lights, tools for emergency repairs,...etc?

Even the most ardent ant-gun activists have admitted they have one or two for self protection.

of course they do,  even more so than in usa,  however  the reason they shame and belittle for same things is  virtue signaling, the way i see good portion of members here are doing it.  that is exactly why some people here i have absolutely no respect for,  for others i have a lot even thou i disagree with them often

Edited September 15, 2019 by aztek

[Hankenhunter]

51 minutes ago, Gunn said:

That all may be, but it still happens. And you can't 100% guarantee that any one of us will not be one of those in the odds. Yeah - It's never happened to me so far, but it did happen to one of my uncles, thankfully he survived. That is why we carry a semi-auto, better to be safe, then trust our luck and be sorry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America

https://www.wideopenspaces.com/list-fatal-black-bear-attacks-north-america-last-20-years/

Ah huh. But what you don't mention is those forest workers usually work in groups, predators don't hang around groups of people just waiting to attack one of them, and I've seen armed U.S. Game Wardens/ Rangers near those groups of forest workers too. And another thing you don't mention - is if a forest worker happens to be alone, out deep in the forest, they have a big ass dog with them like a husky, so they can run like a bat out of hell and let the dog become the bait during an attack. So do you have a dog with you, except for duck and rabbit hunting, every time you go hunting? I don't and for obvious reasons when I hunt.

 

I have to have a dog with me now as I've  been deaf for 20 years. He is my ears and knows how to get my attention if something is near. I have never lost a dog to a attack. On the contrary, mine have saved me the embarrassment of walking into a situation. If an animal attacked my dog, I would fight to the death for him, just like he would do for me. I spent my whole childhood in the pine woods of rural Manitoba without fear of animal attacks. I'm wondering if projecting fear may be a precursor to getting attacked. A topic for another day I suppose. 

Edited September 15, 2019 by Hankenhunter

[Hankenhunter]

22 minutes ago, aztek said:

of course they do,  even more so than in usa,  however  the reason they shame and belittle for same things is  virtue signaling, the way i see good portion of members here are doing it.  that is exactly why some people here i have absolutely no respect for,  for others i have a lot even thou i disagree with them often

Say what? My doors are never locked. There are no bars on my windows. I don't have a gun leaning in a corner by the door. I live in a rural town and like my neighbors, don't live in imagined fear. The fear that makes people shoot through doors at kids, religious sales people, people looking for directions, and even your own loved ones. America isn't the land of the brave anymore, it's the land of unbridled fear. Without your weapons, you seem to be helpless. The rest of the civilized world? Not so much.

[Gwynbleidd]

9 hours ago, Gunn said:

Gwyn, not trying to answer for Tat, but it was only put into effect for ten years (1994 - 2004) and banned semi-autos from being imported into the U.S. that were made after 1994. But it didn't work because mass shootings still occurred during the assault weapons ban, although not as many, and guns made after 1994 still got imported into the U.S. through the blackmarket sale from local gunrunners under the government's radar; even fully automatic machine guns.

Oh thanks so much for explaining that Gunn (you're great at giving me lessons in US gun laws as you've done before now!)  

[+and-then]

7 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

So then if you own a Ruger 10-22, a Glock  43, a  FN Five Seven or an assault rifle  what are your plans for them?

I no longer speak about which guns I may or may not own because it really isn't anyone's business.  My plans are to go about my business as usual.  Until laws are passed that are clearly unconstitutional, there is no reason to behave otherwise.  If the government outlaws a specific type of firearm, I'll sell it before I have to take a loss.  I'd sell it without recording details of the transaction and would ignore any law enforcement angst over that choice.  

I think you can imagine this not being a necessarily typical response.  People will resist laws that are obviously unconstitutional.  Such laws, like ANY other law, are predicated on voluntary compliance.  The threat of legal sanction is only as powerful as the perceived ability to enforce it.  If some tool like O'Rourke ever actually became president and attempted to use an EO or a Dem controlled house/senate team passed legislation that was signed by a Dem president and that law clearly was unconstitutional I believe it would lead to massive civil disobedience and potentially a whole new level of State nullification of Federal powers.