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Eldorado

Maoris ban 'barbarian' Captain Cook's ship

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Eldorado

"The New Zealand village of Mangonui has banned a replica of Captain Cook’s HMS Endeavour from docking in its port in response to objections from the Māori community to the "barbarian" explorer.

"The replica is part of a fleet circumnavigating the country as part of a series of events commemorating the 250th anniversary of Cook’s arrival in New Zealand and the early contact between the Māori and Europeans.

"The head of Northland’s Ngāti Kahu tribe, Anahera Herbert-Graves, told Radio New Zealand that Cook was “a barbarian”."

Full monty at the UK Telegraph: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/09/17/maori-tribe-bans-replica-barbarian-captain-cooks-ship-port-journey/

And at Stuff dot co NZ: https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/115843712/captain-cook-replica-banned-from-docking-in-mangonui-during-commemoration

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Alchopwn
32 minutes ago, Eldorado said:

"The New Zealand village of Mangonui has banned a replica of Captain Cook’s HMS Endeavour from docking in its port in response to objections from the Māori community to the "barbarian" explorer.

Hmm... classic definition of what qualifies as a barbarian...  hillforts, agriculture, no written texts.  Reverse racism is still racism.

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Desertrat56

From everything I have read I think Eroupeans (especially the spaniards, romans and english) were especially barbaric.

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Buzz_Light_Year

I thought research hints at the Māori not being the first peoples in NZ. So who did they displace?

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Alchopwn
1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

From everything I have read I think Eroupeans (especially the spaniards, romans and english) were especially barbaric.

It is easy to point the finger at the cultures that have risen to dominate the world, but the various also-rans generally have their own unpleasant practices and secret historical disgraces to answer for.  Human beings are a species of aquatic omnivorous hive ape, and history is a record of humans at their very worst.  What history seldom adequately covers is all the times humans cooperated and got along.  For all of the examples of warfare humans have indulged in, the fact is, statistically, we cooperate far more than we fight.

1 hour ago, Buzz_Light_Year said:

I thought research hints at the Māori not being the first peoples in NZ. So who did they displace?

It was suggested that the Moriori people represented a pre-Maori settlement of NZ, but this is untrue.  The Moriori were Maori who settled the Chatham Islands, and developed a separate culture, including becoming pacifists.  Then the Maori came along and enslaved them, and nearly ate them to extinction.  This was something of a theme in Maori warfare.

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aztek
2 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

From everything I have read I think Eroupeans (especially the spaniards, romans and english) were especially barbaric.

they were most advanced civilization of their times, they were brutal,     barbarians were barbaric.   but all of them together do not compare to brutality of aztecs

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Desertrat56
Just now, aztek said:

they were most advanced civilization of their times, they were brutal,     barbarians were barbaric.   but all of them together do not compare to brutality of aztecs

No they weren't!   Why do you think Pope Greg decreed that all Aztec and Mayan priest were to be killed and any Aztec or Mayan's who refused to be converted to christianity were to be killed 500 years ago?  And where do you think his mathematicians got the information they needed to use a leap day and fix the roman calendar?  They were not the most advanced civilization, they may not have been the most brutal either but they overran the americas fairly easily with their barbarism.  China was more advanced as well.  AND why would Pope Greg make sure lies about the Aztecs and Mayans were part of eurpean education?  To keep quiet his genocide.

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aztek
17 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

No they weren't!   Why do you think Pope Greg decreed that all Aztec and Mayan priest were to be killed and any Aztec or Mayan's who refused to be converted to christianity were to be killed 500 years ago?  And where do you think his mathematicians got the information they needed to use a leap day and fix the roman calendar?  They were not the most advanced civilization, they may not have been the most brutal either but they overran the americas fairly easily with their barbarism.  China was more advanced as well.  AND why would Pope Greg make sure lies about the Aztecs and Mayans were part of eurpean education?  To keep quiet his genocide.

what exactly are you saying no to?  that aztecs were most advanced of their time? i never said they were, just that they were super brutal, and they sure were.  they believed life IS pain, and they inflicted it on everyone in large amounts,  that includes their own children. of all walks of life, no one was spared

barbaric and brutal are not same thing.

Edited by aztek
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Desertrat56
Just now, aztek said:

what exactly are you saying no to?  that aztecs were most advanced of their time? i never said they were, just that they were super brutal, and they sure were.  they believed life IS pain, and they inflicted it on everyone that includes their own children.

barbaric and brutal are not same thing.

I am saying the europeans were not the most advanced of their time.  Isn't that what you said that I answered?

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aztek
10 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I am saying the europeans were not the most advanced of their time.  Isn't that what you said that I answered?

in that case i disagree,  almost all advanced tech of the time came from Europe,   Rome builders surpassed any other of the time, even by today standards they are advanced,  they had ball bearings, running hot cold water, plumbing, aqueducts,,,over 2000 years ago,, British empire conquered most of the world,  build steam engines, factories.   Europe used cars when china only had horse drawn carriages,  even gun powder that china had for thousands of years was weaponized by Europeans, British empire build steel ships way before china did.

as for Mayan calendar, i have a strong feeling they just had knowledge from previous civilizations, they had 0 tools to explore space

Edited by aztek
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Eldorado

Civilized:

"Eight was the average age for choirboys to be castrated in the 17th century, though officially it was against canon and civil law. Pope Clement VIII admitted castrati into the papal choir in 1599, quoting as justification St Paul's directive: "Let women be silent in the churches.""  https://www.theguardian.com/music/2002/aug/05/classicalmusicandopera.artsfeatures

"The official end to the castrati came on St. Cecilia's Day, 22 November 1903"  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castrato

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Kismit

It’s true that we have to have some uncomfortable discussions in Nee Zealand about our heritage. 

It is important to remember not to vilify any one group. Neither party were saints and we have hit a turning point when some Maori are turning away from their own warrior identity to describe themselves as peace loving guardians of nature. That may be the case today, but if we want to be honest about the Colonials we also need to be honest about ourselves. With all our ugly bumps.

 

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Sir Wearer of Hats

A lot of Pacific Islanders have very low opinions of Cook and his voyages Of “discovery”. 

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Kismit
37 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

A lot of Pacific Islanders have very low opinions of Cook and his voyages Of “discovery”. 

And every right to it. We are all territorial beings, that’s why the rise in Nationalism exists today. Unless we learn to accept a shared space we are headed for some pretty awful moments in history.

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Alchopwn
16 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

No they weren't!   Why do you think Pope Greg decreed that all Aztec and Mayan priest were to be killed and any Aztec or Mayan's who refused to be converted to christianity were to be killed 500 years ago? 

We have archaeological evidence that utterly supports the findings of the Church as to the murderous nature of the Aztecs and their religious practices.  A number of the racks of skulls have been found, as have hundreds of skulls in the pyramids.  As for the Mayans, they went to a lot of trouble to record the number of people that their rulers had executed on given days as part of their monuments, which we can now largely read. 

16 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

And where do you think his mathematicians got the information they needed to use a leap day and fix the roman calendar?

As to the Gregorian Calendar, it was introduced in 1582, while Cortez went thru Mexico in 1521, but discussion of the error was well known as early as the 8th Century when the venerable Bede noted that the calendar was out by 3 days in the computus of the Spring Equinox, and by the time of Bacon in 1200 the error had blown out to 7 or 8 days, and even Dante comments on the error in the 1300s.  Planned Calendar reform under Sixtus the Fourth (great name), failed when his chosen astronomer and mathematician up and died before arriving to do the job.  The project was thus ignored until the time of Gregory XIII.  The fact is that none of the documents of Mexico were deciphered at the time of the Gregorian Calendar, and to my understanding, the Vienna Codex aka the "Codex Vindoboensis Mexicanus I" doesn't contain astronomical info.  Unless you can show a clear example of how Aztec calculations were employed by Benedetti, Moletto or Lilius, I think you have been fed a lie. 

16 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

They (Aztecs) were not the most advanced civilization, they may not have been the most brutal either but they overran the americas fairly easily with their barbarism. 

 No, they didn't over-run the Americas.  The Aztecs were a very localized Empire, not even controlling the whole of Mexico.  Their warfare was highly ritualized, and religiously motivated, with a view to capture of sacrifices rather than killing.  As a result, when facing the Spanish, they didn't adapt their style of warfare, and along with the smallpox epidemic they had suffered, that spelled their end.  But even before the Spaniards came along, the Aztecs had already reached their apogee, as the tribes of New Mexico, most likely ancestors of the Apache (Ndee Tribe) were able to easily destroy the Aztecs and later the Spanish with the use of their desert hardwood bows that may have had a 120 lb pull that could tear thru even iron armor.  The Michoacani from Northern Mexico had also technically outpaced the Aztecs, becoming the first New Worlders to develop Bronze tech.  Technically the Mound Builders and the Incas both had larger geographical empires than the Aztecs.  The Aztecs did manage to store a notable quantity of wealth however.

16 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

China was more advanced as well.  

This is somewhat debatable.  Certainly at the time of Zheng He's Treasure Fleet China led the world, but by the 16th Century that technical edge had been squandered utterly by a conservative Confucian class of bureaucrats who saw the destruction of the power of the Court Eunuchs as being more important than the enriching of China thru international trade and technological development.  Whoever makes themselves an enemy of science is inevitably rolled over by the engine of history.  There is no exceptionalism.

16 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

 AND why would Pope Greg make sure lies about the Aztecs and Mayans were part of eurpean education?  To keep quiet his genocide.

Gregory XIII wasn't even pope during the Conquest of New Mexico; that was Leo X.  As to the genocide being silenced, not really, it was common knowledge that the Aztecs were the worst sort of devil worshippers, and nobody in Christendom would have disagreed.  These acts are clearly depicted all over the Aztec edifices, recorded by the Conquistador historians like Bernal Diaz, and in the codices.  I personally have little doubt that cannibalism was widespread among the Aztecs, as there was a notable lack of protein in their diets without it, and it would be hard to field a credible army if everyone were a withered and anemic vegetarian.  In fact I believe that an entire society of Navajos died out due to a poor understanding of nutrition, as their entire diet became corn, which couldn't sustain them, and all well before Columbus.

Note, I am enormously sympathetic about what happened to the Native Americans, but I am not going to sugar coat or re-write history into a series of Orwellian falsehoods to demonstrate that sympathy.  The Aztecs were a horrific society and a terror to their neighbors, and that is why the tribes around the Aztecs rose up with the Spaniards as allies and destroyed the Aztecs.  If you are going to apologise for the Aztecs and say they weren't so bad, you might as well become a Nazi Revisionist historian while you're at it.

Edited by Alchopwn
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Desertrat56
4 hours ago, Alchopwn said:
hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

They (Aztecs) were not the most advanced civilization, they may not have been the most brutal either but they overran the americas fairly easily with their barbarism. 

You purposely misquoted me.  The THEY I refer to is the Euorpeans, not the Aztecs.  Your history is not as accurate as you claim. 

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Golden Duck
7 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

We have archaeological evidence that utterly supports the findings of the Church as to the murderous nature of the Aztecs and their religious practices.  A number of the racks of skulls have been found, as have hundreds of skulls in the pyramids.  As for the Mayans, they went to a lot of trouble to record the number of people that their rulers had executed on given days as part of their monuments, which we can now largely read. 

As to the Gregorian Calendar, it was introduced in 1582, while Cortez went thru Mexico in 1521, but discussion of the error was well known as early as the 8th Century when the venerable Bede noted that the calendar was out by 3 days in the computus of the Spring Equinox, and by the time of Bacon in 1200 the error had blown out to 7 or 8 days, and even Dante comments on the error in the 1300s.  Planned Calendar reform under Sixtus the Fourth (great name), failed when his chosen astronomer and mathematician up and died before arriving to do the job.  The project was thus ignored until the time of Gregory XIII.  The fact is that none of the documents of Mexico were deciphered at the time of the Gregorian Calendar, and to my understanding, the Vienna Codex aka the "Codex Vindoboensis Mexicanus I" doesn't contain astronomical info.  Unless you can show a clear example of how Aztec calculations were employed by Benedetti, Moletto or Lilius, I think you have been fed a lie. 

 No, they didn't over-run the Americas.  The Aztecs were a very localized Empire, not even controlling the whole of Mexico.  Their warfare was highly ritualized, and religiously motivated, with a view to capture of sacrifices rather than killing.  As a result, when facing the Spanish, they didn't adapt their style of warfare, and along with the smallpox epidemic they had suffered, that spelled their end.  But even before the Spaniards came along, the Aztecs had already reached their apogee, as the tribes of New Mexico, most likely ancestors of the Apache (Ndee Tribe) were able to easily destroy the Aztecs and later the Spanish with the use of their desert hardwood bows that may have had a 120 lb pull that could tear thru even iron armor.  The Michoacani from Northern Mexico had also technically outpaced the Aztecs, becoming the first New Worlders to develop Bronze tech.  Technically the Mound Builders and the Incas both had larger geographical empires than the Aztecs.  The Aztecs did manage to store a notable quantity of wealth however.

This is somewhat debatable.  Certainly at the time of Zheng He's Treasure Fleet China led the world, but by the 16th Century that technical edge had been squandered utterly by a conservative Confucian class of bureaucrats who saw the destruction of the power of the Court Eunuchs as being more important than the enriching of China thru international trade and technological development.  Whoever makes themselves an enemy of science is inevitably rolled over by the engine of history.  There is no exceptionalism.

Gregory XIII wasn't even pope during the Conquest of New Mexico; that was Leo X.  As to the genocide being silenced, not really, it was common knowledge that the Aztecs were the worst sort of devil worshippers, and nobody in Christendom would have disagreed.  These acts are clearly depicted all over the Aztec edifices, recorded by the Conquistador historians like Bernal Diaz, and in the codices.  I personally have little doubt that cannibalism was widespread among the Aztecs, as there was a notable lack of protein in their diets without it, and it would be hard to field a credible army if everyone were a withered and anemic vegetarian.  In fact I believe that an entire society of Navajos died out due to a poor understanding of nutrition, as their entire diet became corn, which couldn't sustain them, and all well before Columbus.

Note, I am enormously sympathetic about what happened to the Native Americans, but I am not going to sugar coat or re-write history into a series of Orwellian falsehoods to demonstrate that sympathy.  The Aztecs were a horrific society and a terror to their neighbors, and that is why the tribes around the Aztecs rose up with the Spaniards as allies and destroyed the Aztecs.  If you are going to apologise for the Aztecs and say they weren't so bad, you might as well become a Nazi Revisionist historian while you're at it.

I never before read that possibly there were sometimes six nameless days.  Not very mathematical at all.

http://nahuatlstudies.blogspot.com/2017/04/the-aztecs-did-not-need-leap-year.html?m=1

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Hammerclaw
On 9/17/2019 at 1:54 PM, aztek said:

they were most advanced civilization of their times, they were brutal,     barbarians were barbaric.   but all of them together do not compare to brutality of aztecs

You think they were particularly barbaric? Read up on Rome's Jewish wars if you want to vicariously experience experts at true barbarism.

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Hammerclaw
23 hours ago, Kismit said:

It’s true that we have to have some uncomfortable discussions in Nee Zealand about our heritage. 

It is important to remember not to vilify any one group. Neither party were saints and we have hit a turning point when some Maori are turning away from their own warrior identity to describe themselves as peace loving guardians of nature. That may be the case today, but if we want to be honest about the Colonials we also need to be honest about ourselves. With all our ugly bumps.

 

The truth is-our European ancestors invaded and settled foreign lands and over time, wrenched them away from their native inhabitants. It's history and undeniable and an ancient pattern of human migrations, not endemic of just Europeans. This particular group of Maori are, simply, declining participation of the celebration of the event in their land.

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aztek
20 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

You think they were particularly barbaric? Read up on Rome's Jewish wars if you want to vicariously experience experts at true barbarism.

brutality and barbarism are not the same thing, a barbarian may be brutal, but a brutal roman is no barbarian

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Kismit
57 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

The truth is-our European ancestors invaded and settled foreign lands and over time, wrenched them away from their native inhabitants. It's history and undeniable and an ancient pattern of human migrations, not endemic of just Europeans. This particular group of Maori are, simply, declining participation of the celebration of the event in their land.

It is true that we recorded what we did. In written word, other cultures kept their stories through telling them, like Chinese whispers those oral traditions alter over time and we will never know how many other cultures also did similar and are now remembered as brave seafarers discovering new lands.

The landing of the Endeavour in New Zealand as far as I know was accepted as nothing more than a visiting ship, the English were not treated too badly at the time and the sharing of space was amicable until the Maori were armed, and by all accounts it appeared to be the plan from the beginning, to get what the English had brought with them to keep for themselves. 

Both sides in this story are not innocent, they were both sea going explorers vying for resources. There is an interesting documentary on YouTube, it’s long so take your time to watch it and it talks about why the New Zealand Maori are the only Polynesian people to have a red headed gene. With loads of clues coming from the mouths of people who are trusted to keep their family histories.

https://youtu.be/Hgh-rC80ZPc

that is just the trailer, but you can find the whole thing free on YouTube 

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Hammerclaw
2 hours ago, aztek said:

brutality and barbarism are not the same thing, a barbarian may be brutal, but a brutal roman is no barbarian

To the person being barbarized and brutalized, I don't think it matters if they can quote Homer and drink their grog with pinky finger extended or not. The experience is much the same.

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Buzz_Light_Year
1 hour ago, Kismit said:

It is true that we recorded what we did. In written word, other cultures kept their stories through telling them, like Chinese whispers those oral traditions alter over time and we will never know how many other cultures also did similar and are now remembered as brave seafarers discovering new lands.

The landing of the Endeavour in New Zealand as far as I know was accepted as nothing more than a visiting ship, the English were not treated too badly at the time and the sharing of space was amicable until the Maori were armed, and by all accounts it appeared to be the plan from the beginning, to get what the English had brought with them to keep for themselves. 

Both sides in this story are not innocent, they were both sea going explorers vying for resources. There is an interesting documentary on YouTube, it’s long so take your time to watch it and it talks about why the New Zealand Maori are the only Polynesian people to have a red headed gene. With loads of clues coming from the mouths of people who are trusted to keep their family histories.

https://youtu.be/Hgh-rC80ZPc

that is just the trailer, but you can find the whole thing free on YouTube 

I've seen that and the lady's DNA was traced back to Peru and India if I remember correctly.

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Hammerclaw
1 hour ago, Kismit said:

It is true that we recorded what we did. In written word, other cultures kept their stories through telling them, like Chinese whispers those oral traditions alter over time and we will never know how many other cultures also did similar and are now remembered as brave seafarers discovering new lands.

The landing of the Endeavour in New Zealand as far as I know was accepted as nothing more than a visiting ship, the English were not treated too badly at the time and the sharing of space was amicable until the Maori were armed, and by all accounts it appeared to be the plan from the beginning, to get what the English had brought with them to keep for themselves. 

Both sides in this story are not innocent, they were both sea going explorers vying for resources. There is an interesting documentary on YouTube, it’s long so take your time to watch it and it talks about why the New Zealand Maori are the only Polynesian people to have a red headed gene. With loads of clues coming from the mouths of people who are trusted to keep their family histories.

https://youtu.be/Hgh-rC80ZPc

that is just the trailer, but you can find the whole thing free on YouTube 

Why does that even matter? They were there before you and your ancestors displaced them. Mine did the same here and Columbus Day isn't big on the List of Native American Celebrations. Seems your Maori feel the same way about Cook. History happened; don't fall into the trap of becoming an apologist for it. The Britons displaced the Picts and were displaced or became Romans who were displaced by the Angles and Saxons who were conquered and displaced by the Normans and so on. Your ancestors, in turn, out-competed the Maori and claimed your home. You've learned to live together and peacefully co-exist, the most important history of all of it.

Edited by Hammerclaw
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Desertrat56
1 hour ago, Kismit said:

It is true that we recorded what we did. In written word, other cultures kept their stories through telling them, like Chinese whispers those oral traditions alter over time and we will never know how many other cultures also did similar and are now remembered as brave seafarers discovering new lands.

The landing of the Endeavour in New Zealand as far as I know was accepted as nothing more than a visiting ship, the English were not treated too badly at the time and the sharing of space was amicable until the Maori were armed, and by all accounts it appeared to be the plan from the beginning, to get what the English had brought with them to keep for themselves. 

Both sides in this story are not innocent, they were both sea going explorers vying for resources. There is an interesting documentary on YouTube, it’s long so take your time to watch it and it talks about why the New Zealand Maori are the only Polynesian people to have a red headed gene. With loads of clues coming from the mouths of people who are trusted to keep their family histories.

https://youtu.be/Hgh-rC80ZPc

that is just the trailer, but you can find the whole thing free on YouTube 

See, that's the thing.  The Chinese, the Mayans & the Aztecs had written language and kept written records.  The thing that everybody uses to pretend like Europeans had a more advanced civilization than any in the Americas is a lie or half truth at best.  The Europeans were not more advanced than a lot of other civilizations and in a lot of ways they were behind, in science and astronomy.  You can't argue that the Euopeans were ahead of the Chinese in any way at all.

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