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No God needed


zep73

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Premises 1: Anything that could happen, will eventually happen, given enough time.

Premises 2: Positive energy -[minus] Negative energy = Zero energy (nothing)

Premises 3: According to the zero energy universe hypothesis, our universe is equal to premises 2

Premises 4: According to premises 1, the Big Bang had to happen at some point

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-energy_universe

So why should we take this hypothesis serious? It is just a hypothesis, right?
Well, the observable universe corresponds to it. So if the rest is the same - and we have no reason to think it's not - then it's a correct description of our universe.

A short presentation by Michio Kaku (1:16)

A more in depth description (3:24) 

 

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Is the universe "fine", if it does happen to have a "creator" ? Apparently not ! I think the central premise, which I don't see listed, is that such questions are answerable by rational enquiry. That is where it is dead in the water, I think. There are no factual expositions, or fictional classics ( some would say certain parts of the Bible fit that description), that don't leave the reader hanging, and knowing no more than they did, before reading it. I really think the insistence on a universe that is completely devoid of anything that can't, in principle, be explained "rationally", which is really what these kinds of ideas try to project, is an assumption born of a "we don't admit defeat" mentality, which has no doubt served humanity well, in dealing with practical problems in the world, but it won't crack this one, and that is a leap of intelligence and imagination that is seemingly beyond those that are obsessed with rational thinking as being the "game", but it is not the game, but perhaps more akin to the ball.

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13 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Is the universe "fine", if it does happen to have a "creator" ? Apparently not ! I think the central premise, which I don't see listed, is that such questions are answerable by rational enquiry. That is where it is dead in the water, I think. There are no factual expositions, or fictional classics ( some would say certain parts of the Bible fit that description), that don't leave the reader hanging, and knowing no more than they did, before reading it. I really think the insistence on a universe that is completely devoid of anything that can't, in principle, be explained "rationally", which is really what these kinds of ideas try to project, is an assumption born of a "we don't admit defeat" mentality, which has no doubt served humanity well, in dealing with practical problems in the world, but it won't crack this one, and that is a leap of intelligence and imagination that is seemingly beyond those that are obsessed with rational thinking as being the "game", but it is not the game, but perhaps more akin to the ball.

Math is logical, but not always rational to the mind. The emergence of something from nothing can be explained mathematically, but the mind is skeptical.
I would claim that rational inquiry is best fit for matters of Earthly living. Because our rationality is born from that.

We are here handed the ultimate answer of them all. And it has mathematical logic, and observable evidence. Why not be grateful, instead of throwing 'the stubborn card'?
Or is it just an old habit, to attack first, and worry about significance later?

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1 hour ago, sci-nerd said:

The emergence of something from nothing can be explained mathematically

Quite the statement. So mathematics came from no mathematics ?

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I think it takes a leap of imagination, to imagine that which cannot be imagined, or at least a leap of intelligence, to imagine that there can be that which cannot even be imagined, let alone analysed. But as I say, the "we won't be defeated " mentality won't submit. When it does, you might just get the answer, in a form entirely unanticipated.

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17 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Quite the statement. So mathematics came from no mathematics ?

9 minutes ago, Habitat said:

I think it takes a leap of imagination, to imagine that which cannot be imagined, or at least a leap of intelligence, to imagine that there can be that which cannot even be imagined, let alone analysed. But as I say, the "we won't be defeated " mentality won't submit. When it does, you might just get the answer, in a form entirely unanticipated.

Everything we believe in, came from nothing. Every major event that ever occurred, came from nothing. The universe is just the ultimate extension of that.

Let's take world war 2 as an example. It was started because we have an idea about territory, and Hitler had an idea about what territory his country should possess. His idea collided with the existing ideas of his opponents.

But they were all just ideas. Thoughts. They did not exist.

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Sci-nerd, I can accept arcane arguments about emergences from nothing, because ultimately any "explanation" couched in our normal terminology ends there, but we can't say the same for Herr Hitler and his European Tour.

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2 minutes ago, Habitat said:

Sci-nerd, I can accept arcane arguments about emergences from nothing, because ultimately any "explanation" couched in our normal terminology ends there, but we can't say the same for Herr Hitler and his European Tour.

It's not arcane, it's math. And the hypothesis does not get nearly the attention it deserves. A shame.

WW2 was just an example of how ideas (that only exist in our minds), can turn the world upside down. Math, however, is real. The universe obeys it.

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That is the same as saying that "Math" is God. So it is the "Creator"

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4 minutes ago, Habitat said:

That is the same as saying that "Math" is God. So it is the "Creator"

I can live with that. If you really need to name a God/creator, math is a good choice,

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But we know mathematical logic is a product of the brain, all knowledge is an accurate internal representation of the wider reality. Acausality is not in the mind's kitbag of representing reality.

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1 minute ago, Habitat said:

But we know mathematical logic is a product of the brain, all knowledge is an accurate internal representation of the wider reality. Acausality is not in the mind's kitbag of representing reality.

Mathematical reality and rules is something we learned by studying nature. It is not a human concept.

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30 minutes ago, sci-nerd said:

Everything we believe in, came from nothing. Every major event that ever occurred, came from nothing. The universe is just the ultimate extension of that.

Let's take world war 2 as an example. It was started because we have an idea about territory, and Hitler had an idea about what territory his country should possess. His idea collided with the existing ideas of his opponents.

But they were all just ideas. Thoughts. They did not exist.

Information has mass according to these scientists...

https://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/dr-karl-podcast/11528724

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Just now, sci-nerd said:

Mass is information. So by a far extent it is plausible.

The hypothesis is if you could recall Graham's number your brain would collapse.

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The obsession to understand, rationally, goes hand-in-hand with the obsession to manipulate the world, what is left, when these subside ? The chance for other faculties of the mind to grow.

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