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Eldorado

'Unimaginable' oil prices, warns Saudi prince

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Desertrat56
7 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

DR, we certainly backed the Afghans in the '80s to get those bad bad Soviet *occupiers* out! 

Things changed. 911. Ring a bell?

Some things changed but not what you think.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

Some things changed but not what you think.

Fine and dandy. If you know what I think and if you know the *real* story.  [sigh]

Do you know the official government reason as to why the US invaded Afghanistan in 2002?  Let's see how you think.

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and then
3 hours ago, Phaeton80 said:

with intent to target / attack Iran without any real reason besides geo strategical.

Just as you would say to me - just because you deny a thing does NOT make it true.  Only a naive fool would truly believe Iran isn't working to build a bomb.  At the least, those who support them should admit this.  It makes them look like shills or imbeciles to deny it.

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On 10/1/2019 at 9:56 AM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Over 700,000 Palestinian Muslims and Christians were uprooted from their homes and land, and forced to live in refugee camps on Israel’s borders.

And a roughly equal number of Jews were pushed out and beggared by their neighbors.  Your point?

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On 10/1/2019 at 1:15 PM, Desertrat56 said:

What is wrong with an attempt at deescalation?

Dumbledore-Chamberlain can explain it, no doubt.  Appeasement always turns out well, after all.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
7 minutes ago, and then said:

And a roughly equal number of Jews were pushed out and beggared by their neighbors.  Your point?

I don't know what you are talking about, but if you support that, did those Jews displaced have the "Right of Return"?

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2 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

There are human rights abuses going on all over the world but  what Israel has done and is continuing to do for that length of time and with so much $upport is not comparable. My contempt for them grows every day, and I can only hope they are taught a good lesson about human rights some day soon.

Sure Israel has fought its own battles but not the invasion of Iraq and now, Iran. "Iran want's to destroy us" - yeah, so...?  Everyone in the ME wants you destroyed, Israel, but it is only Iraq, Iran and Syria that talk the talk all the time. 

So, fight the big boys, Israel. But wait... Why should they?

So, that "justice" is worth the death of a million or more in the region?  Really?  And you deny that you have an overwhelming hatred for that nation for reasons of your own?

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Tatetopa
6 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Potential releasing us from any responsibility of policing The Gulf. Let it go to Hell after it's on fashion, or let the one's reliant on it's oil fully foot the bill.

Double Like

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Tatetopa
4 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

It is because people with power and "other people's money" will do with it as they so choose. 
This has been going on since the Korean Conflict, fake wars. Tat, just look at Afghanistan and tell me if American *people* can justify this 20 year war.

I can't tell you.  But I can tell you this, it is not just government  people in power that push these things, it is corporate people in power too.  Oil companies wanted access to Iraq.  Mineral companies wanted the riches of Afghanistan, as well as drug companies maybe.  Iran is on target for a wealth grab.of petroleum too.  Start a war take over a country, make it an economic colony.

Remember Paul Bremer the so-called Viceroy of Iraq?  At one point he floated an idea to make it illegal for Iraqi farmers to save their own seeds.  They would have to buy from Monsanto or similar source.

The  Greenland deal was the same sort of thing. It is rich in resources as well as being strategic.   It was not foolish, it was evil.  Consider a nation like a real estate deal.  Buy a property, evict the tenants, (who cares they are mostly Eskimos anyway)  tear down their houses and build your own high rise and collect the dough.  The Greenlanders do sell mining and petroleum concessions, but that wasn't good enough for us, we wanted to take the whole thing. 

Money buys a lot of Congressmen and Senators, Earl, and a few Presidents too.

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2 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I don't know what you are talking about, but if you support that, did those Jews displaced have the "Right of Return"?

They were robbed blind and told to go on pain of death.  Hell no they weren't invited back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

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Farmer77
On 10/1/2019 at 5:52 AM, RoofGardener said:

Well, the Saudi's are claiming that the detritus from the missile/drone attacks was from Iranian cruise missiles. They have put aforementioned detritus on display to the media, and the photographs have circulated EVERYWHERE... including to the eyes of multitudinous weapons experts worldwide. So far as I am aware, nobody has contradicted the Saudi analysis ? 

Proof enough ? 

So said weapons experts pulled the detritus from the attack site themselves? 

Or just got to see what SA put on display and claim is what actually hit the refinery?

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DarkHunter
25 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

So said weapons experts pulled the detritus from the attack site themselves? 

Or just got to see what SA put on display and claim is what actually hit the refinery?

Out of curiosity how do you suppose Saudi Arabia would just happen to get their hands on multiple cruise missiles and drones that are only produced by Iran, and for atleast the cruise missiles are not exported to any other country.

If you believe Saudi Arabia planted the debris as some kind of massive conspiracy you got to explain how they got the weapons to begin with.

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Farmer77
9 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

Out of curiosity how do you suppose Saudi Arabia would just happen to get their hands on multiple cruise missiles and drones that are only produced by Iran, and for atleast the cruise missiles are not exported to any other country.

Seriously? Do you think SA and the USA dont have a multimillion dollar (billion?) espionage enterprise set up specifically targeting Iran?

Hell on top of that Id bet dollars to donuts there are most likely multiple "off book" operations led by folks like Prince and his band of mercenaries.

 

9 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

If you believe Saudi Arabia planted the debris as some kind of massive conspiracy you got to explain how they got the weapons to begin with.

IDK that I believe that necessarily, I simply have no reason to not believe it.

As for where they came from the easiest answer would be that they were produced in the west specifically to look like the Iranian models.

Of course there could be actual debris recoveries from testing which was retrieved by boots on the ground.

When things are too convenient you have to ask who benefits.

 

Edited by Farmer77
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The Caspian Hare
On 10/1/2019 at 10:40 AM, DarkHunter said:

It has been covered in another thread but essentially the Houthi claims are mostly false.  The videos and pics are either from past engagements, some of which went very badly for the Houthis after the initial ambush, or they dont match the claims at all. 

The paraded troops seem to be an overwhelming mix of captured mercenaries or yemeni militia with maybe a handful of Saudi military advisers, the vehicles captured or destroyed were 17 troop transports/light armored vehicles and not hundreds of heavily armored vehicles, and the count of captured seems to be in the hundreds and not thousands.  

Even with some Houthi embellishment, this was a major defeat.

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/09/29/607432/Yemeni-Army-release-footage-of-Victory-from-God-Almighty-offensive-against-Najran

There are Saudi uniforms among the captured. The fact that there aren't more in all likelihood means that their Saudi officers and advisers ran away, because, quite frankly, Saudi Arabia is completely incompetent. Its military is nothing more than a jobs program and a regime preservation force. Princes become fighter pilots while armies of incompetents get led to the slaughter. Saudi Arabia has been getting its nose bloodied for four years even with virtually unlimited access to US weapons, US intelligence and logistics support, and total air superiority.

If the Houthis get into their new American LAV's and 113's and drive north we might as well rename the country "Houthi Arabia."

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DarkHunter
4 minutes ago, Farmer77 said:

Seriously? Do you think SA and the USA dont have a multimillion dollar (billion?) espionage enterprise set up specifically targeting Iran?

Hell on top of that Id bet dollars to donuts there are most likely multiple "off book" operations led by folks like Prince and his band of mercenaries.

 

IDK that I believe that necessarily, I simply have no reason to not believe it.

As for where they came from the easiest answer would be that they were simply produced in the west specifically to look like the Iranian models.

Of course there could be actual debris recoveries from testing which was retrieved by boots on the ground.

When things are too convenient you have to ask who benefits.

 

So basically you have absolutely zero answers other then what you feel what must be a massively large and complex conspiracy theory.  

As for producing them that would not be some simple task as the circuitry and other advanced components would be made in Iran, especially with stuff like cruise missiles where Iran has been making a massive push to have all advanced weapon systems to be solely domestically produced.  So for your conspiracy to work America and Saudi Arabia would not only have to have the exact design specifications and blue prints for Iranian advanced weapon systems but also stupidly in depth information on their production ability along with being able to copy said ability to such a high degree to fool international experts.

At some point you just got to admit it's an insane theory.

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6 minutes ago, The Caspian Hare said:

If the Houthis get into their new American LAV's and 113's and drive north we might as well rename the country "Houthi Arabia."

Nah, I think that might well trigger U.S. reinforcements on the ground.  SA isn't going to be allowed to fall to Iran.  Not gonna happen.

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Farmer77
Just now, DarkHunter said:

So basically you have absolutely zero answers other then what you feel what must be a massively large and complex conspiracy theory.  

As for producing them that would not be some simple task as the circuitry and other advanced components would be made in Iran, especially with stuff like cruise missiles where Iran has been making a massive push to have all advanced weapon systems to be solely domestically produced.  So for your conspiracy to work America and Saudi Arabia would not only have to have the exact design specifications and blue prints for Iranian advanced weapon systems but also stupidly in depth information on their production ability along with being able to copy said ability to such a high degree to fool international experts.

At some point you just got to admit it's an insane theory.

Im really not sure where youre getting "massive conspiracy theory" from.  A single compromisable scientist is all it would take to get the required information.

Im definitely not married to the idea but like I said when things are too convenient it just makes sense to ask who benefits.

Somehow we (the west) seem to think human nature stops being a thing when its convenient. The entire world is watching Iran as a raving lunatic and his religious zealot supporters beg for an opportunity to attack her with the most powerful military in history. It just makes zero sense for them to have performed the attack from a human perspective.

Perhaps they did, the US and SA saying so however simply isnt going to convince me.

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The Caspian Hare
Just now, and then said:

Nah, I think that might well trigger U.S. reinforcements on the ground.  SA isn't going to be allowed to fall to Iran.  Not gonna happen.

I think the connection with Iran is somewhat exaggerated. They might take Iranian weapons, but they're not going to be their puppet. Anyway, we need to be extracting ourselves from the Middle East, not finding ways to get more deeply involved. Saudi Arabia is an artificial state full of soft, rich people who let foreigners do all the hard work. That state, and the petrodollar system it supports, can't last forever.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
3 hours ago, and then said:

So, that "justice" is worth the death of a million or more in the region?  Really?  And you deny that you have an overwhelming hatred for that nation for reasons of your own?

I don't speak for the Muslims, they do a decent job speaking for themselves. War is war. Simple as that. Many times we have seen soldiers go on a no return trip, a suicide mission. Japanese kamikaze pilots, Soviet pilots that flew their planes into the tail of an invading bomber craft. People are no afraid to die defending their nation. I don't know why you think that this is so wrong for Muslims or that I have any say in the matter. They'll do it of their own volition. 

If your arm has gangrene, you cut it off.

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Earl.Of.Trumps
1 hour ago, and then said:

They were robbed blind and told to go on pain of death.  Hell no they weren't invited back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

Ok, now I Have you. All I can tell you is, one bad deed turns another. I'm sure the Jewish exodus from Muslim countries was as a result of hostilities in retaliation for the Jews screwing the Palestinian Muslims. Whatever. 

I'm sure you don't mind Israel being a Jewish State. Please be understanding of people like the Iranians that want a Muslim State. 

tit for tat. Who started it?

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Black Red Devil
1 hour ago, The Caspian Hare said:

Even with some Houthi embellishment, this was a major defeat.

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/09/29/607432/Yemeni-Army-release-footage-of-Victory-from-God-Almighty-offensive-against-Najran

There are Saudi uniforms among the captured. The fact that there aren't more in all likelihood means that their Saudi officers and advisers ran away, because, quite frankly, Saudi Arabia is completely incompetent. Its military is nothing more than a jobs program and a regime preservation force. Princes become fighter pilots while armies of incompetents get led to the slaughter. Saudi Arabia has been getting its nose bloodied for four years even with virtually unlimited access to US weapons, US intelligence and logistics support, and total air superiority.

If the Houthis get into their new American LAV's and 113's and drive north we might as well rename the country "Houthi Arabia."

Don't mock and completely underestimate them.  You should see how tough they are with their women. :P

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Black Red Devil
1 hour ago, DarkHunter said:

Out of curiosity how do you suppose Saudi Arabia would just happen to get their hands on multiple cruise missiles and drones that are only produced by Iran, and for atleast the cruise missiles are not exported to any other country.

If you believe Saudi Arabia planted the debris as some kind of massive conspiracy you got to explain how they got the weapons to begin with.

Trump, Pompeo and the Saudi's were blustering to the world they had undeniable proof of the Iranians responsibility.  Are these scraps they (only) showed photos of the proof they were talking about or is there more because the Houthis are the ones that claimed responsibility? Unless there is more evidence of direct Iranian involvement, photos of scrap metal aren't convincing anyone and in fact nobody (except for the suck holes in the Aussie Govt) are buying their story.

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DarkHunter
2 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Trump, Pompeo and the Saudi's were blustering to the world they had undeniable proof of the Iranians responsibility.  Are these scraps they (only) showed photos of the proof they were talking about or is there more because the Houthis are the ones that claimed responsibility? Unless there is more evidence of direct Iranian involvement, photos of scrap metal aren't convincing anyone and in fact nobody (except for the suck holes in the Aussie Govt) are buying their story.

Considering Germany, UK, France, and the Netherlands are blaming Iran for the attack it seems America and Saudi Arabia got some proof that has been reported.  Even then it wont matter to you cause no evidence will be enough for you and you already made up your mind that Iran is innocent.

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Farmer77
56 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

Considering Germany, UK, France, and the Netherlands are blaming Iran for the attack it seems America and Saudi Arabia got some proof that has been reported.  Even then it wont matter to you cause no evidence will be enough for you and you already made up your mind that Iran is innocent.

I don't want to speak for BRD but from my perspective it's not about thinking Iran is innocent it's just about understanding that in that particular arena there are no good guys. 

When you have multiple actors playing a zero sum game you would be naive to think otherwise. 

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Earl.Of.Trumps

It would seem strange for Iran to have done the deed, deny it, and have the Houthis admit to it. Possible but not proven.

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