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Fabula Omnium

How do you forgive

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Fabula Omnium

Not restricted to one school of thought

I'm posing this question to see how people can explain how to do it not why. If there is any advice to overcome one if the not the biggest downside of mankind. I've posed this question before to a more restricted forum and got vague answers if anyone has any, shoot.

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bison

Knowing why to forgive may enable one to actually do so, hence the 'how'.  An old quotation, translated from French, says: 'To know (or understand) all is to forgive all'.

There is a good deal of truth in that. If we realize that a person's behavior is driven by the totality of their circumstances; their genetic inheritance, their upbringing, their experiences in life, we must also realize that they could not have done otherwise than they did, even if what they did was very harmful.

We can't know or understand everything about any individual, even ourselves, but we can realize that an emotional attitude of blame is mistaken, pointless, and even harmful to ourselves.  

 

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Kittens Are Jerks

Not sure what the big deal with forgiveness is. Some say forgiving is good for the soul, or whatever, but then again, so is anger. Perhaps if one allows for time to heal whatever wounds were inflicted, forgiveness might come as a matter of natural course. Bison's suggestion of utilising compassion and understanding is an excellent one, but ultimately what's important, is not how you feel about others, but, rather, how you feel about yourself. If forgiving helps you move forward, then by all means forgive. But, if you don't want to, then don't, for if you do, you'll never forgive yourself for having done so.

Ultimately, it boils down to self-respect and preservation. As I see it, to forgive someone is to compromise yourself, so in order to forgive a person who has caused you harm, grief (or whatever) in any way, take yourself down a notch, lower your standards, expectations, and self-esteem. and there you have it: the ability to forgive. And don't anyone suggest it takes a big person to forgive. As I see it, it takes and even bigger person not to.

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Desertrat56
2 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Not sure what the big deal with forgiveness is. Some say forgiving is good for the soul, or whatever, but then again, so is anger. Perhaps if one allows for time to heal whatever wounds were inflicted, forgiveness might come as a matter of natural course. Bison's suggestion of utilising compassion and understanding is an excellent one, but ultimately what's important, is not how you feel about others, but, rather, how you feel about yourself. If forgiving helps you move forward, then by all means forgive. But, if you don't want to, then don't, for if you do, you'll never forgive yourself for having done so.

Ultimately, it boils down to self-respect and preservation. As I see it, to forgive someone is to compromise yourself, so in order to forgive a person who has caused you harm, grief (or whatever) in any way, take yourself down a notch, lower your standards, expectations, and self-esteem. and there you have it: the ability to forgive. And don't anyone suggest it takes a big person to forgive. As I see it, it takes and even bigger person not to.

Forgiveness is never about the other, it is always about you.  How can you be ok and move on.  Keeping grudges and holding on to anger only cripples you.  I know all about the crippling effect of not wanting to or being able to forgive.  There are a lot of knee jerk things angry people do that harm themselves and others, including isolation in order to protect from further harm.

 

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Kittens Are Jerks
1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

Forgiveness is never about the other, it is always about you.  How can you be ok and move on.  Keeping grudges and holding on to anger only cripples you.  I know all about the crippling effect of not wanting to or being able to forgive.  There are a lot of knee jerk things angry people do that harm themselves and others, including isolation in order to protect from further harm.

I fail to understand how one needs to forgive in order to move forward. Forgiveness in no way magically dissipates anger and, in some instances, there will always be anger, resentment, and whatever other emotions play into it, because there will always be the memory of the experience.

Not everyone has the same coping mechanisms, but it's possible to utilise rage in a non-destructive way so that it motivates rather than cripples. So again, it boils down to self-respect and preservation, and anyone with a healthy does of both should realise that forgiveness is not the panacea people think it is. If anything, it's highly over-rated and gives the other person an undeserved get out of jail free card. And that, in my opinion, just adds insult to the injury.

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Love Buzz

I always have forgiven people who have hurt me, but I don't forget. It's take s too mush energy to hold a grudge.  Plus I think I would be disappointed in myself if I didn't forgive.

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Desertrat56
4 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

I fail to understand how one needs to forgive in order to move forward. Forgiveness in no way magically dissipates anger and, in some instances, there will always be anger, resentment, and whatever other emotions play into it, because there will always be the memory of the experience.

Not everyone has the same coping mechanisms, but it's possible to utilise rage in a non-destructive way so that it motivates rather than cripples. So again, it boils down to self-respect and preservation, and anyone with a healthy does of both should realise that forgiveness is not the panacea people think it is. If anything, it's highly over-rated and gives the other person an undeserved get out of jail free card. And that, in my opinion, just adds insult to the injury.

You have it backwards, forgiveness can't happen before you resolve the anger.  Forgiveness is never about the other, it is always about you and your feelings.  You may or may not be forgiving yourself, but you are resolving your feelings, so that every time you think of that incident or any time something resembles that incident you don't feel it as if it just happened.  That is what forgiveness is, discharging the feelings so that you have a memory that does not always feel like it just happened even after 40 years.

Have you ever heard someone say "This always happens." and they are upset when they say it?  It is unresolved past feelings and no clear rational thought about the present moment that triggers that.

Someone told me once that if you get cut off in traffic and it makes you so angry it ruins your day, the anger has nothing to do with the traffic incident, it is old, unresolved anger that needs to be tracked to it's source so you can resolve it.  That helped me understand how angry I was and how crippled I was with that anger.

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Fabula Omnium
22 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

I fail to understand how one needs to forgive in order to move forward. Forgiveness in no way magically dissipates anger and, in some instances, there will always be anger, resentment, and whatever other emotions play into it, because there will always be the memory of the experience.

But in reality what is it really doing for you. Memory to not trust the person? valid. Eventually you would end up doing that with everyone.

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Aquila King

If someone acknowledges wrongdoing and actively tries to make things right, I forgive them. Otherwise, they don't deserve it. This isn't rocket science.

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Kittens Are Jerks
34 minutes ago, Fabula Omnium said:

But in reality what is it really doing for you. Memory to not trust the person? valid. Eventually you would end up doing that with everyone.

Not necessarily, especially if one is able to place the focus where it should be.

But what are we talking about anyway? Infidelity? Murder? How extreme is the act that requires forgiveness?

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Fabula Omnium
47 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

If someone acknowledges wrongdoing and actively tries to make things right, I forgive them. Otherwise, they don't deserve it. This isn't rocket science.

Even then people just can't let it go. Hence my posing question.

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Fabula Omnium
2 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Not necessarily, especially if one is able to place the focus where it should be.

But what are we talking about anyway? Infidelity? Murder? How extreme is the act that requires forgiveness?

Most do it's a mechanism that people use later on to determine the level of trust they can give to that person. Really, anything because some people get p***ed from stupid things to not being so mad over major.

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Kittens Are Jerks
55 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

You have it backwards, forgiveness can't happen before you resolve the anger.  Forgiveness is never about the other, it is always about you and your feelings.  You may or may not be forgiving yourself, but you are resolving your feelings, so that every time you think of that incident or any time something resembles that incident you don't feel it as if it just happened.  That is what forgiveness is, discharging the feelings so that you have a memory that does not always feel like it just happened even after 40 years.

Have you ever heard someone say "This always happens." and they are upset when they say it?  It is unresolved past feelings and no clear rational thought about the present moment that triggers that.

Someone told me once that if you get cut off in traffic and it makes you so angry it ruins your day, the anger has nothing to do with the traffic incident, it is old, unresolved anger that needs to be tracked to it's source so you can resolve it.  That helped me understand how angry I was and how crippled I was with that anger.

No I don't have it backwards. And no, it's not always about you and never about them.

An example:

If someone accidentally ran over my cat, I would be upset, but would forgive them without hesitation (especially if they expressed remorse). If they ran over my cat deliberately, I would never forgive them, not in this lifetime or the next. The pain of losing my cat would be with me forever. Forgiving the person would in no way change that. Obviously the same would hold true in the first instance as well, but in that case, forgiveness isn't about me, it's about them and making them feel better. And that is why I cannot totally agree with the argument that forgiveness is all about yourself, and never about them. 

As for the anger, forgiving them would only make me angry at myself for having done so, and I prefer to have my anger directed where it should be. The way I would harness that anger would be to ensure that they were prosecuted, and that their life was made as hellish as possible. That would make me feel so very much better. It really would.

As for that 'it always happens' feeling, I would argue that one will continue to have it regardless of having forgiven it in the past. 

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Aquila King
15 minutes ago, Fabula Omnium said:

Even then people just can't let it go. Hence my posing question.

That just depends on the situation. 

I think you're over complicating this.

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Kittens Are Jerks
4 minutes ago, Fabula Omnium said:

Most do it's a mechanism that people use later on to determine the level of trust they can give to that person. Really, anything because some people get p***ed from stupid things to not being so mad over major.

Perhaps. I can only speak from personal experience, and that experience is extraordinarily limited. I've never been placed in a position where I have had to consider forgiving someone, but know myself well enough to know that forgiveness is neither an option or solution. It may be a stepping stone to healing for some, but healing is a long process and forgiveness is minor in the scheme of things. If people choose to drown in their anger, it is not because they have not forgiven the other person, it's because they don't acknowledge their sense of self-worth and the many other non-destructive coping mechanisms available to them.

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Fabula Omnium
16 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

That just depends on the situation. 

I think you're over complicating this.

No, you act as if it is that simple or straight forward when it isn't. People can attempt to correct themselves but there are people who just don't care to be that willing.

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Fabula Omnium
21 minutes ago, Kittens Are Jerks said:

Perhaps. I can only speak from personal experience, and that experience is extraordinarily limited. I've never been placed in a position where I have had to consider forgiving someone, but know myself well enough to know that forgiveness is neither an option or solution. It may be a stepping stone to healing for some, but healing is a long process and forgiveness is minor in the scheme of things. If people choose to drown in their anger, it is not because they have not forgiven the other person, it's because they don't acknowledge their sense of self-worth and the many other non-destructive coping mechanisms available to them.

You can't hold a grudge without it essentially consuming or manipulating your thoughts eventually. I digress, people do and hence why it hurts even more so. That the person that inflicted the transgression chooses not to recognize it or can't.

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Aquila King
12 minutes ago, Fabula Omnium said:

No, you act as if it is that simple or straight forward when it isn't. 

Yes, actually, it is.

14 minutes ago, Fabula Omnium said:

People can attempt to correct themselves but there are people who just don't care to be that willing.

If they're unwilling to change then you don't forgive them.

Seriously dude, what's to discuss here? You're making this a hell of a lot more complicated than it needs to be.

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Fabula Omnium
9 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Yes, actually, it is.

If they're unwilling to change then you don't forgive them.

Seriously dude, what's to discuss here? You're making this a hell of a lot more complicated than it needs to be.

Change is subjective some people no matter how hard unless it is to that level of acceptance its on the person they did wrong but it takes a lot depending to reach that level of perfect or semi perfect forgiveness. Where a person feels totally at peace about a given situation.

Forgiveness much like anything else isn't straight forward. You must not have a lot of life experience if i have to point these things out. 

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Aquila King
10 minutes ago, Fabula Omnium said:

Forgiveness much like anything else isn't straight forward.

Well it's certainly not that complex.

It just depends on the individual situation. What did the person do? What's the person's past history? Do they recognize their wrongdoing? Are they genuinely remorseful? Are they taking steps to fix the situation? Can the situation even be "fixed?"

There are so many factors involved, that it's nearly impossible to sit here and lay out in great detail exactly when to dish out forgiveness, and to what degree.

But ultimately what it comes down to is: forgive those who prove they deserve it. The individual details regarding who deserves forgiveness and for what reasons is entirely determined on an individual case by case basis. Discussions of all the individual if-then scenarios is relatively pointless.

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Kittens Are Jerks
44 minutes ago, Fabula Omnium said:

You can't hold a grudge without it essentially consuming or manipulating your thoughts eventually. I digress, people do and hence why it hurts even more so. That the person that inflicted the transgression chooses not to recognize it or can't.

I deliberately ran over your cat. Sorry. 

So how does that change things? The cat is still dead and the sense of loss is nowhere near abated.

I see forgiveness as a type of twisted moral virtue; a way of rising above a situation so that one might perhaps heal a relationship for example, or to showcase their 'goodness' when faced with the opposite. It has its place I suppose, and it's perhaps the best path to choose in some situations but it should be done for the right reasons and not at your expense. 

Edited by Kittens Are Jerks
Removed double word.
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Rlyeh

I don't see the big deal about forgiveness, I get the impression those who try to forgive have obsessive thoughts of anger and hate.

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spartan max2

Any details on the situation this is regarding ?

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RabidMongoose
6 hours ago, Fabula Omnium said:

Not restricted to one school of thought

I'm posing this question to see how people can explain how to do it not why. If there is any advice to overcome one if the not the biggest downside of mankind. I've posed this question before to a more restricted forum and got vague answers if anyone has any, shoot.

Most human beings are incomplete in their minds.

By that, I mean there is the part of their minds they allow to exist and the part they supress. Most people have their dark side suppressed along with darker emotions such as hate, aggression, jealously, envy, etc. There is also a lot of other stuff supressed too. 

Everything we have supressed we have done because our upbringing and society moulded us into believing we only had value if we buried what lurks in our shadow.

Lets say you have a bad experience with a jealous person. They get jealous, they impact your life, and they deny that they are jealous. That is a repressed person who has supressed jealousy from their conscious minds.

Because it is something buried deep down in their mind, they have never learned to regulate that emotion and despite it bubbling to the surface driving their behaviour, they deny it exists. In fact they will probably become hostile at you even suggesting they are jealous. That is the nature of the shadow (what is supressed).

Forming healthy relationships with others comes from fully integrating your own shadow into your conscious mind so that you can see what drives the actions and behaviours of others. And so that you can respond accordingly in an appropriate manner.

The world has a lot of morons living on it who are nice towards people they shouldn't be nice too, who hope they can change others, who refuse to be a bad person because they are repressed. It is appropriate to ignore, avoid, bully, and destroy people which are a disaster.

Maybe you yourself want to keep your capacity to ignore, avoid, bully, and destroy people, supressed in your mind so that you can maintain your sense of `value` which society has given you? Maybe you will even react to me telling you all this with hostility? Maybe you will deny you even have that side to yourself?

If so you are deeply repressed in these matters. Evolution gave you a dark side and darker emotions to aid your survival. They help protect your from the machinations of narcissists, sociopaths, and psychopaths. The shock a lot of people have to learn at some point in their lives is that evil people really do exist, and are more common that what the unknowing realise.

If you have been stung by an ******** then you walked into it. It is easy to spot a wolf in sheep`s clothing once you accept evil people exist and do your own shadow integration work to understand the nature of evil. Instead of forgiving them, bully and destroy them. And if they go and jump off a bridge thats one less ******** for everyone else to have to deal with too.

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LightAngel
8 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

Instead of forgiving them, bully and destroy them. And if they go and jump off a bridge thats one less ******** for everyone else to have to deal with too.

 

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster" - Friedrich Nietzsche

Hmm...

Be careful that you don't cross certain lines because you might not be able to come back again if you do.

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