How do you forgive

[+Sherapy]

11 hours ago, Aquila King said:

Well it's certainly not that complex.

It just depends on the individual situation. What did the person do? What's the person's past history? Do they recognize their wrongdoing? Are they genuinely remorseful? Are they taking steps to fix the situation? Can the situation even be "fixed?"

There are so many factors involved, that it's nearly impossible to sit here and lay out in great detail exactly when to dish out forgiveness, and to what degree.

But ultimately what it comes down to is: forgive those who prove they deserve it. The individual details regarding who deserves forgiveness and for what reasons is entirely determined on an individual case by case basis. Discussions of all the individual if-then scenarios is relatively pointless.

Exactly! 

My fave quote is “stop with the forgiveness people know exactly what they are doing.” 

 

[Alchopwn]

14 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Forgiveness is never about the other, it is always about you.  How can you be ok and move on.  Keeping grudges and holding on to anger only cripples you.  I know all about the crippling effect of not wanting to or being able to forgive.  There are a lot of knee jerk things angry people do that harm themselves and others, including isolation in order to protect from further harm.

The only forgiveness you need is to forgive yourself when you make an error of judgement.  Give yourself permission to make mistakes.  As to other people, don't seek revenge, just sue.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

Some things (if not all) can never be forgiven and we just need to understand where such effort would be total waste of the energy. Either in giving or asking for forgiveness, same thing.

I believe that man must learn to never regret about anything and then forgiveness becomes trivial thing. Trivial in a way that it doesn't have any importance because we just move on in any case.

[Robotic Jew]

"If what we're here to do is learn to forgive, I'm gonna need some more time..." Todd Snider

[+Sherapy]

19 minutes ago, Robotic Jew said:

"If what we're here to do is learn to forgive, I'm gonna need some more time..." Todd Snider

I love this quote too.

On forgiveness:

“One can choose to let go, move on, or close the door while at the same time decline reconciliation.”

Edited October 3, 2019 by Sherapy

[Aquila King]

17 hours ago, RabidMongoose said:

Most human beings are incomplete in their minds.

By that, I mean there is the part of their minds they allow to exist and the part they supress. Most people have their dark side suppressed along with darker emotions such as hate, aggression, jealously, envy, etc. There is also a lot of other stuff supressed too. 

Everything we have supressed we have done because our upbringing and society moulded us into believing we only had value if we buried what lurks in our shadow.

Lets say you have a bad experience with a jealous person. They get jealous, they impact your life, and they deny that they are jealous. That is a repressed person who has supressed jealousy from their conscious minds.

Because it is something buried deep down in their mind, they have never learned to regulate that emotion and despite it bubbling to the surface driving their behaviour, they deny it exists. In fact they will probably become hostile at you even suggesting they are jealous. That is the nature of the shadow (what is supressed).

Forming healthy relationships with others comes from fully integrating your own shadow into your conscious mind so that you can see what drives the actions and behaviours of others. And so that you can respond accordingly in an appropriate manner.

The world has a lot of morons living on it who are nice towards people they shouldn't be nice too, who hope they can change others, who refuse to be a bad person because they are repressed. It is appropriate to ignore, avoid, bully, and destroy people which are a disaster.

Maybe you yourself want to keep your capacity to ignore, avoid, bully, and destroy people, supressed in your mind so that you can maintain your sense of `value` which society has given you? Maybe you will even react to me telling you all this with hostility? Maybe you will deny you even have that side to yourself?

If so you are deeply repressed in these matters. Evolution gave you a dark side and darker emotions to aid your survival. They help protect your from the machinations of narcissists, sociopaths, and psychopaths. The shock a lot of people have to learn at some point in their lives is that evil people really do exist, and are more common that what the unknowing realise.

If you have been stung by an ******** then you walked into it. It is easy to spot a wolf in sheep`s clothing once you accept evil people exist and do your own shadow integration work to understand the nature of evil. Instead of forgiving them, bully and destroy them. And if they go and jump off a bridge thats one less ******** for everyone else to have to deal with too.

Thanks for insight bud. If you truly believe this nonsense, and feel the need to keep spouting it off on every thread, seeking someone to validate it for you, then you're clearly just a narcissistic sociopath (possibly even psychopath given how much you want to hurt people). Good to know for future reference.

[Duke Wellington]

12 hours ago, LightAngel said:

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster" - Friedrich Nietzsche

Hmm...

Be careful that you don't cross certain lines because you might not be able to come back again if you do.

A monster cannot stop being a monster.

A well balanced person can choose when to apply it to get rid of the monster in their life. 

[Duke Wellington]

11 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Exactly! 

My fave quote is “stop with the forgiveness people know exactly what they are doing.” 

Yes, the monster knows exactly what he/she is up too and what affects its having on the person being targeted.

Everything is calculated and intentional. They get off from destroying their targets. For them its easy as they have no empathy, guilt, or remorse. And the emotional problems they have (not forgetting the limited range of emotions they actually experience) are temporality sedated with the sadistic kick they get from controlling the targets emotions and making them have a meltdown. They are the puppet masters making their victims dance about to their delight regardless of the devastating impact it has on their psychology.

The narcissists, sociopaths, and psychopaths target high value people who are strong, confident, popular, well-liked, attractive, bright, moral, and successful. Not the weak insignificant man/women who cannot stand up for themselves as the targets are portrayed in popular culture. And when the narcissist, sociopath, or psychopath, succeeds in destroying one they quite literally cream their pants in delight over it. By destroying we are talking heart attack, stroke, mental breakdown, or suicide, but preferably the suicide.

Psychologists cannot fix them, and any attempt at psychological treatment is used by them as an information source to equip them with yet more tools to target their victims with. Thats why the most common advice is to get them out of your life as soon as you realise what they are.

When targeted back the narcissists, sociopaths, and psychopaths, can get quite violent. Therefore if someone has safety concerns I recommend just getting them out of their life as soon as possible and never having any contact ever again. If thats not possible (maybe its a work colleague or family member) then do not react to any attempts to turn you into a puppet, do not play along, and be as boring as humanly possible whenever around them.

I personally advocate bullying and destroying them if someone feels safe enough to do it. Turn them into your puppet, make them dance about, and break them in the head. Exactly what they would do to you or someone else. If you watch them beforehand you can ascertain if they are quite an angry and aggressive person. Those are the ones that get violent.

Of course I`d say 50% of society are totally blind as to the monsters around them. They really do think the cogs go around inside everyone`s head exactly the same as theirs. They cannot spot the wolf in sheep`s clothing. And when such a person is a high value target the monster will love how naïve they are, how they keep coming back for more, and how they are always good to them.

Knowing that evil people really do exist is a harsh life lesson people have to learn. I have sympathy for the person who gets stung once, but if a person gets repeatedly stung they are quite frankly a moron. They need to shake their ideals out of their heads and realise that we are not living in a perfect world, but a world where 15% of their fellow human beings are evil to different degrees of evilness.

Edited October 3, 2019 by RabidMongoose

[FrethKindheart]

On 10/2/2019 at 10:07 AM, Fabula Omnium said:

Not restricted to one school of thought

I'm posing this question to see how people can explain how to do it not why. If there is any advice to overcome one if the not the biggest downside of mankind. I've posed this question before to a more restricted forum and got vague answers if anyone has any, shoot.

Forgiveness comes from letting go of the human tendency to focus on self rather than selflessness.  If we're truly selfless, we realize that all of us are human and make mistakes, that all of us are broken in various ways.  Having love for your fellow man, despite the way they treat you, is something that comes out of selflessness and realizing that we are all the same.  None of us are without fault.  Forgiving someone doesn't mean you continue to accept bad behavior or treatment.  You still should move on from a toxic relationship, but doing so with a clear slate, at least in your own heart and mind, brings peace.

 

[Fabula Omnium]

40 minutes ago, FrethKindheart said:

Forgiveness comes from letting go of the human tendency to focus on self rather than selflessness.  If we're truly selfless, we realize that all of us are human and make mistakes, that all of us are broken in various ways.  Having love for your fellow man, despite the way they treat you, is something that comes out of selflessness and realizing that we are all the same.  None of us are without fault.  Forgiving someone doesn't mean you continue to accept bad behavior or treatment.  You still should move on from a toxic relationship, but doing so with a clear slate, at least in your own heart and mind, brings peace.

 

Love the sinner not the sin and by your profile picture i have some issues with that dogma. We are selfish by nature period. Unconditional love is fictitious even by gods standards. He even has a certain level where he draws the line. Depending what you believe in you either get sent somewhere or eviscerated. 

[Aquila King]

5 minutes ago, Fabula Omnium said:

We are selfish by nature period.

Speak for yourself.

5 minutes ago, Fabula Omnium said:

Unconditional love is fictitious

You've clearly never had a kid then.

Either that or you're a sociopath. 

[Fabula Omnium]

On 10/3/2019 at 2:22 PM, RabidMongoose said:

Yes, the monster knows exactly what he/she is up too and what affects its having on the person being targeted.

Everything is calculated and intentional. They get off from destroying their targets. For them its easy as they have no empathy, guilt, or remorse. And the emotional problems they have (not forgetting the limited range of emotions they actually experience) are temporality sedated with the sadistic kick they get from controlling the targets emotions and making them have a meltdown. They are the puppet masters making their victims dance about to their delight regardless of the devastating impact it has on their psychology.

The narcissists, sociopaths, and psychopaths target high value people who are strong, confident, popular, well-liked, attractive, bright, moral, and successful. Not the weak insignificant man/women who cannot stand up for themselves as the targets are portrayed in popular culture. And when the narcissist, sociopath, or psychopath, succeeds in destroying one they quite literally cream their pants in delight over it. By destroying we are talking heart attack, stroke, mental breakdown, or suicide, but preferably the suicide.

Psychologists cannot fix them, and any attempt at psychological treatment is used by them as an information source to equip them with yet more tools to target their victims with. Thats why the most common advice is to get them out of your life as soon as you realise what they are.

When targeted back the narcissists, sociopaths, and psychopaths, can get quite violent. Therefore if someone has safety concerns I recommend just getting them out of their life as soon as possible and never having any contact ever again. If thats not possible (maybe its a work colleague or family member) then do not react to any attempts to turn you into a puppet, do not play along, and be as boring as humanly possible whenever around them.

I personally advocate bullying and destroying them if someone feels safe enough to do it. Turn them into your puppet, make them dance about, and break them in the head. Exactly what they would do to you or someone else. If you watch them beforehand you can ascertain if they are quite an angry and aggressive person. Those are the ones that get violent.

Of course I`d say 50% of society are totally blind as to the monsters around them. They really do think the cogs go around inside everyone`s head exactly the same as theirs. They cannot spot the wolf in sheep`s clothing. And when such a person is a high value target the monster will love how naïve they are, how they keep coming back for more, and how they are always good to them.

Knowing that evil people really do exist is a harsh life lesson people have to learn. I have sympathy for the person who gets stung once, but if a person gets repeatedly stung they are quite frankly a moron. They need to shake their ideals out of their heads and realise that we are not living in a perfect world, but a world where 15% of their fellow human beings are evil to different degrees of evilness.

i wouldn't say necessarily every person or that group by default know what they're doing. A lot of what society has deemed evil is just pure ignorance. There is some of it that really isn't the persons fault per se. Eventually the person needs to get with the program and cut their non sense out. There are some out there who are just evil that is something that's difficult to point out but who knows who those people are. Usually people draw the circle around entities larger than themselves government, religious institutions, clubs etc. But who honestly knows it's only based on just belief.

[Fabula Omnium]

12 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Speak for yourself.

You've clearly never had a kid then.

Either that or you're a sociopath. 

Right, show ANY good deed that doesn't get some form of kickback. I'm tired of hearing that same thing with animals. Both will not love you if you treat them poorly. Eventually they will bite you or leave you. Love has parameters to work with. Like i explained to the christian even his/her god has guidelines you don't follow them you're done. If you can name one scenario where you don't have to put effort into a situation to keep a status quo and still receive love i'll bow to it otherwise you have nothing.

[Aquila King]

6 minutes ago, Fabula Omnium said:

If you can name one scenario where you don't have to put effort into a situation to keep a status quo and still receive love i'll bow to it otherwise you have nothing.

Check mate.

Quote

Sue Klebold, whose son Dylan and another teenager killed a dozen classmates and a teacher 20 years ago at Columbine High School. “When it first happened,” she told Solomon in an interview for his book, “I used to wish that I had never had children, that I had never married … But over time, I’ve come to feel that, for myself, I am glad I had kids and glad I had the kids I did, because the love for them—even at the price of this pain—has been the single greatest joy of my life.” (She was speaking of her own pain, she clarified, not the pain that others suffered because of her son.)

...

“Parents love their kids, even though they’ve committed a horrible act,” Peter Langman, a psychologist who studies school shootings, told me. When a school shooter survives, he said, “the parents often are at the trials, visit them in prison, [and] support them in whatever way they can.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/08/parents-mass-school-shootings/595594/

 

[Fabula Omnium]

2 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

Check mate.

 

We were talking victim wise the parent may still "love" the child. Even though really this wasn't solely based upon some pricks in this kids school that made him go to do this more than likely this started at home but regardless. The CHILD doesn't love the parent. That was you said.

[Aquila King]

2 minutes ago, Fabula Omnium said:

The CHILD doesn't love the parent. That was you said.

No, what I said was "you've clearly never had a kid" which was a roundabout way of saying a parent often loves their child unconditionally. This was a prime example of that. Unconditional love does exist, and not everyone is inherently selfish by nature.

[Fabula Omnium]

2 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

No, what I said was "you've clearly never had a kid" which was a roundabout way of saying a parent often loves their child unconditionally. This was a prime example of that. Unconditional love does exist, and not everyone is inherently selfish by nature.

That's non sense parents especially have a biological imperative to preserve the life they gave birth to. Humans are almost equally inclined to as animals to drop a fetus or child if the conditions are too hostile. Kudos to those that hold out even when it is that hard. Point is you mistaken a biological imperative to preserve the continuation of life to love.

[Aquila King]

4 minutes ago, Fabula Omnium said:

Point is you mistaken a biological imperative to preserve the continuation of life to love.

I don't really see how that isn't love... 

Last I checked, to love is to support the preservation, continuation, overall health, wealth, and prosperity of life other than your own. Selfishness is merely to do the same for yourself in priority to others.

To claim we are all selfish and that unconditional love doesn't exist at all seems to be an automatically false statement. The truth here is self-evident.

[Fabula Omnium]

3 minutes ago, Aquila King said:

I don't really see how that isn't love... 

Last I checked, to love is to support the preservation, continuation, overall health, wealth, and prosperity of life other than your own. Selfishness is merely to do the same for yourself in priority to others.

To claim we are all selfish and that unconditional love doesn't exist at all seems to be an automatically false statement. The truth here is self-evident.

That's an investment and if we're going to talk about wholesome "treat thy neighbor as thy self" rhetoric than yes. An investment has a literal word "in" which takes a certain person(s) to see an ideal result long or short term. Definition "an act of devoting time, effort, or energy to a particular undertaking with the expectation of a worthwhile result." So again tell me that isn't selfish. Selfish is what has kept mankind alive for so long. 

[+Desertrat56]

15 hours ago, FrethKindheart said:

Forgiveness comes from letting go of the human tendency to focus on self rather than selflessness.  If we're truly selfless, we realize that all of us are human and make mistakes, that all of us are broken in various ways.  Having love for your fellow man, despite the way they treat you, is something that comes out of selflessness and realizing that we are all the same.  None of us are without fault.  Forgiving someone doesn't mean you continue to accept bad behavior or treatment.  You still should move on from a toxic relationship, but doing so with a clear slate, at least in your own heart and mind, brings peace.

 

How do you have love for your fellow man if you have trouble finding love for yourself?

[Crazy Horse]

On 10/2/2019 at 3:07 PM, Fabula Omnium said:

Not restricted to one school of thought

I'm posing this question to see how people can explain how to do it not why. If there is any advice to overcome one if the not the biggest downside of mankind. I've posed this question before to a more restricted forum and got vague answers if anyone has any, shoot.

I didn't read the whole thread..

How you do it, is by understanding that person, why, because its a lot more healthy for you.

[Duke Wellington]

On 10/5/2019 at 4:05 AM, Fabula Omnium said:

That's non sense parents especially have a biological imperative to preserve the life they gave birth to. Humans are almost equally inclined to as animals to drop a fetus or child if the conditions are too hostile. Kudos to those that hold out even when it is that hard. Point is you mistaken a biological imperative to preserve the continuation of life to love.

Both you are also overlooking how some parents have attachment disorders.

And attachment disorders are seen at the core of many toxic personalities.

[+Sherapy]

On 10/4/2019 at 7:59 PM, Aquila King said:

No, what I said was "you've clearly never had a kid" which was a roundabout way of saying a parent often loves their child unconditionally. This was a prime example of that. Unconditional love does exist, and not everyone is inherently selfish by nature.

Some psychologists have said that having children provides a

the experience that cultivates altruism providing all is well to begin with.  

Edited October 6, 2019 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

On 10/4/2019 at 7:23 PM, Fabula Omnium said:

Love the sinner not the sin and by your profile picture i have some issues with that dogma. We are selfish by nature period. Unconditional love is fictitious even by gods standards. He even has a certain level where he draws the line. Depending what you believe in you either get sent somewhere or eviscerated. 

One of the earliest qualities and experiences we try to encourage is sharing, being kind to others, thinking of others. We tend to include non selfish behaviors in child rearing. Of course, there are sociopaths. 

At different points it is going to look various ways, for example: the little one will share their toys, the 22 year old will get help for a peer who is hurt, typically they won’t leave them on the side of the road to fend for themselves. 

These would qualify as unconditional behaviors. 

We are naturally empathetic which helps too.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

37 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

Both you are also overlooking how some parents have attachment disorders.

And attachment disorders are seen at the core of many toxic personalities.

Excellent point RM. 

I actually have the Attachment Theory Handbook, you should see this book. It’s huge.

And incredibly interesting. 

You would like it.

Edited October 6, 2019 by Sherapy