How do you forgive

[+Sherapy]

Just now, Captain Risky said:

If its an accident then yeah i can see where forgiveness can help. If its intentional and driven by evil, well...

A dude knocking around his girlfriend knows it is wrong and keeps doing it them blames her well if the shoe fits...

 

[+Hammerclaw]

2 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

A dude knocking around his girlfriend knows it is wrong and keeps doing it them blames her well if the shoe fits...

 

Yeah, makes you kinda miss frontier justice.

[Unusual Tournament]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

A dude knocking around his girlfriend knows it is wrong and keeps doing it them blames her well if the shoe fits...

...thats horrible. 

[+Sherapy]

5 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

...thats horrible. 

It happens and it is a hard journey to healing for the affected.. My heart is with the abused not the abuser. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

5 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yeah, makes you kinda miss frontier justice.

There are just shytty people in this world sad to say.

[+Hammerclaw]

Just now, Sherapy said:

There are just shytty people in this world sad to say.

Yeah, oh for a stout branch and coil of rope....

[+Sherapy]

Just now, Hammerclaw said:

Yeah, oh for a stout branch and coil of rope....

Sometimes the world is a better place minus certain people. Manson, Bundy, Hitler...

[Unusual Tournament]

13 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

It happens and it is a hard journey to healing  for the affected.. My heart is with the abused not the abuser. 

I agree. I guess the whole premise about forgiveness is not becoming what you despise, so you break the chain by forgiving so you don't hurt someone else like you were hurt. Personally i think its easier said than done. I can think of a million horrible things that can happen to those i love and care and even myself and forgiveness on my part would be difficult and insincere. Would i even want to forgive just to wash the painful memory away, To me its a form of betrayal. I think you can still live with a tragedy without pretending to let go in order to live your life. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Captain Risky

[+Sherapy]

10 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

I agree. I guess the whole premise about forgiveness is not becoming what you despise, so you break the chain by forgiving so you don't hurt someone else like you were hurt. Personally i think its easier said than done. I can think of a million horrible things that can happen to those i love and care and even myself and forgiveness on my part would be difficult and insincere. Would i even want to forgive just to wash the painful memory away, To me at least its a form of betrayal. I think you can still live with a tragedy without pretending to let go in order to live your life. 

I don’t know about you but I don’t have an issue with being abusive to others and I have people I do not and will not be forgiving, by choice. 

I am not going to choose to become less than because I find someone’s behavior unforgivable. 
 

 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Sherapy

[Unusual Tournament]

31 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I don’t know about you but I don’t have an issue with being abusive to others and I have people I do not and will not be forgiving, by choice. 

I am not going to choose to become less than because I find someone’s behavior unforgivable. 

I have no problem getting some payback, either. But i wouldn't call it being abusive. Id call it justice. The potential problem i see is that somewhere in that wessels life is a decent person that feels and cares for him/her. Thats who would be getting hurt. and there's the rub. Can you live with getting revenge at all costs. I guess its a personal thing. Its not easy for most, putting on the blinkers and getting payback when you can't see all the angles. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Captain Risky

[+Sherapy]

Just now, Captain Risky said:

I have no problem getting some payback, either. But i wouldn't call it being abusive. Id call it justice. The potential problem i see is that somewhere in that wessels life is a decent person that feels and cares for him/her. Thats who would be getting hurt. and there's the rub. Can you live with getting revenge at all costs. I guess its a personal thing. Its not easy for most, putting on the blinkers and getting payback when you can see all the angles. 

I do believe in karma and if I can give it a push, I will.

I recently was part of a labor board investigation against an unscrupulous business owner who cheats her employees. 
It isn’t always often that the law works for the good guy, but I this case it did.

 

[Duke Wellington]

37 minutes ago, Captain Risky said:

I agree. I guess the whole premise about forgiveness is not becoming what you despise, so you break the chain by forgiving so you don't hurt someone else like you were hurt. Personally i think its easier said than done. I can think of a million horrible things that can happen to those i love and care and even myself and forgiveness on my part would be difficult and insincere. Would i even want to forgive just to wash the painful memory away, To me its a form of betrayal. I think you can still live with a tragedy without pretending to let go in order to live your life. 

In life we are presented with situations where we have to treat others correctly or we experience a negative comeback. But we are also presented with those instances when we should be abusive to some moron and if we arent then we pay for that one too.

A well balanced person isn't someone locked into being nice or mean to everyone. Healthy relationships arise by knowing who not to bother with, who to ignore, and who to bully. Compared to those who we should be friendly towards, take an interest in, and treat properly.

[Duke Wellington]

3 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I do believe in karma and if I can give it a push, I will.

I recently was part of a labor board investigation against an unscrupulous business owner who cheats her employees. 
It isn’t always often that the law works for the good guy, but I this case it did.

I have weirder beliefs than karma.

The universe wants us to be both good and evil, to learn about both, and when to apply both. If we struggle to be good when we should the universe sends us instances to break us down for it. And if we struggle to be evil then the same happens.

[Unusual Tournament]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

I do believe in karma and if I can give it a push, I will.

I recently was part of a labor board investigation against an unscrupulous business owner who cheats her employees. 
It isn’t always often that the law works for the good guy, but I this case it did.

LOL. yeah sure karma is great. and a helping hand is always welcome. 

[jypsijemini]

I'm really on the fence about it all - on the one hand, I'd like to think that the world could become a better place with increased forgiveness but at the same time, I recognise that there are many people out there who refuse to change and treat people better, regardless of how much forgiveness, love and support they receive. You'd think that something in them would bring about change when they can see the clear contrast between pain and abuse, and love and forgiveness - but they don't. For some people, no amount of external influences or circumstances brings them to a decision to change.

I fear that my ex never learned his lesson. I fear that he's just getting better at hiding his true self for longer. I feel as though he sees himself more as a victim than a perpetrator - though it was his abuse which ultimately brought out the bad side in me. I cheated on him because I knew it would end things, and I wanted to hurt him back. I'm not at all proud of what I did because it hardly speaks of courage or strength in just being able to walk out and leave him - but I didn't know how it would go down when I told him either. He'd been incredibly physically violent on numerous occasions so I don't know why it didn't occur to me that the moment I told him what I'd done could be my last. I think I really just wanted to hurt him as much as I could without considering what the worst-case consequences might be.

He abused the girl he dated before me just the same. I remember very early on, she was calling him late at night and putting other guys on the phone who were threatening him and calling him a 'woman basher'. He was adamant that these claims were false. I found out pretty soon after that she was right. She'd also cheated on him - but he always painted her out to be this selfish, promiscuous, disloyal **** that ruined his life. And I believed him right up until the end. I realised that it had so much more to do with his constant abuse - mostly emotional, financial, sexual, mental, verbal abuse - that pushes his partners over the edge and into some uncharacteristic toxic behaviours. It's not an excuse, but I started to see a pattern. She had turned to ice to escape her reality and I was smoking the devil's lettuce every day to escape mine. We both saw cheating as a way to pay him back for what he was putting us through.

But now that I've distanced myself from him and rediscovered who I really am and what I value, I can't help but to wish better for him and his life. I hate what he did. I hate the memories. I hate that things still trigger me sometimes and bring the pain flooding back. I wish I could flip a switch and turn it all off. I wish I could tear those chapters out of my life-book and burn them and be rid of them forever. Forgiveness won't fix it or erase the memories. There's no excuse for what he did, whether he's mentally ill or whether he's suffering his own traumas - or whether it's the fact that he was an ice-head for over three years. There's no excuse.

But I want his life to be better because it's the only way he'd have the potential to treat someone better than he has in the past. I thought that I'd given him that, but he abused me anyway. Maybe he'll never change. But he's out of my life now. If I keep hating him, he stays in my life. He continues to be part of my story and I want him out. Forgiveness, for me, is the ability to turn the page and begin the process of allowing time to fade the memories. The more that I associate any type of feeling with him, the harder it will be to tune him out of my head. Forgiving doesn't require me to feel anything for him. I don't pity him. I don't care about him. I pity the other people who will come into his life and I care about them. I don't know who they are - so the only thing that makes me feel any better is just hoping that he will change and treat people right for once. Especially his own mother. Lord, he was a real scumbag to her. Another red flag, I know.

Abuse will always make me angry. I don't think I could ever understand or forgive someone who abuses a child in any way, shape or form. And I need to remind myself that adults are no different - all cases of such abuse are undeserved and equally wrong, regardless of age and vulnerability. I think I just take too much consideration on how flawed and broken most people are, and try to empathise with each person's situation. I feel as though I have no right to judge because I've knowingly and unknowingly done things to hurt others as well.

The only times where I like my own anger is when something is black and white and I know how wrong it feels to me, where there's no circumstantial excuses or explanations for a person's behaviour. Where the victim was so grievously and completely wronged by a perpetrator that absolutely no part of me can even begin to want to understand why or how.

I really like this discussion because it's bringing forth an element of emotion that I've suppressed all my life. Growing up as a Christian, there were very few times where anger was acceptable or appropriate. I've suppressed a lot of anger for the majority of my life and it's great to start exploring that with other people who have another view on it.

Thank you! <3

[+Sherapy]

3 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

I have weirder beliefs than karma.

The universe wants us to be both good and evil, to learn about both, and when to apply both. If we struggle to be good when we should the universe sends us instances to break us down for it. And if we struggle to be evil then the same happens.

Why am I not surprised. 

Hey RM have you read In Sheep’s Clothing by Dr.George Simon?
I literally thought you would love this book. Lol

[jypsijemini]

5 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

The universe wants us to be both good and evil, to learn about both, and when to apply both. If we struggle to be good when we should the universe sends us instances to break us down for it. And if we struggle to be evil then the same happens.

I second this. I'm starting to learn it just now because my upbringing centred around suppression of negative emotions and now I see that there needs to be a harmonious balance of both for life itself to have any meaning to it. It can't all just be peaceful, harmonious bliss. It'd be nice, but it's not how things work. There will always be good and bad, outside of us and within us, so life is about learning how and when to be one or the other.

I believe there is such a thing as lovingly delivering justice and anger - just as there is the ability to despise someone when your actions seem loving and kind. I do the latter way too much and I think I'm starting to realise that and am practicing finding a balance a bit more. I have always been passive aggressive but I'm learning to be much more upfront and directly honest about my feelings and thoughts when things just seem wrong or when I've been hurt. I'm not so irrational and uncontrollably emotional now so I think it's a much better time in my life, now that I'm more emotionally mature, to start learning these things.

[XenoFish]

People will look for whatever reason in order to validate their beliefs. 

[Duke Wellington]

27 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

People will look for whatever reason in order to validate their beliefs. 

In business science students are taught Systems Thinking which is when a business takes steps to ensure its always relating to its external environment properly.

The first step is for the management to be honest with themselves about the external environment that actually exists. Then to take steps to adjust the businesses internal environment so it can relate to its external environment properly. Systems Thinking doesnt just apply to business but is present in many life philosophies.

Someone who is truthful and honest with themselves can admit the universe is not good, or evil, but both. It has many positive and just as many negative aspects. Therefore ignoring the true nature of the universe to pursue a personal set of ideals (such as the person must always be good) puts them out of balance with reality.

We have to relate to our external environment that actually exists by adjusting our own internal ways of thinking so that we can stay in balance with it. In my personal opinion religion does a lot of damage to people. Its not the scripture, its the various Churches installing ideals into their followers which dont represent a practical approach to getting on in life. With it being religion it locks them into their approach to life causing them a large variety of problems as a result.

When we learn to relate to our external environments properly life becomes so much easier. People locked into being evil dont exist so that we can learn forgiveness towards them, or so that we can learn how to turn the other cheek, etc. Get stuck in by treating the moron like a moron. Be mean to them, bully them, ignore them, and cut them off. Only a mug would treat someone correctly who doesnt treat them properly.

Edited December 11, 2019 by RabidMongoose

[+Sherapy]

7 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

In business science students are taught Systems Thinking which is when a business takes steps to ensure its always relating to its external environment properly.

The first step is for the management to be honest with themselves about the external environment that actually exists. Then to take steps to adjust the businesses internal environment so it can relate to its external environment properly. Systems Thinking doesnt just apply to business but is present in many life philosophies.

Someone who is truthful and honest with themselves can admit the universe is not good, or evil, but both. It has many positive and just as many negative aspects. Therefore ignoring the true nature of the universe to pursue a personal set of ideals (such as the person must always be good) puts them out of balance with reality.

We have to relate to our external environment that actually exists by adjusting our own internal ways of thinking so that we can stay in balance with it. In my personal opinion religion does a lot of damage to people. Its not the scripture, its the various Churches installing ideals into their followers which dont represent a practical approach to getting on in life. With it being religion it locks them into their approach to life causing them a large variety of problems as a result.

When we learn to relate to our external environments properly life becomes so much easier. People locked into being evil dont exist so that we can learn forgiveness towards them, or so that we can learn how to turn the other cheek, etc. Get stuck in by treating the moron like a moron. Be mean to them, bully them, ignore them, and cut them off. Only a mug would treat someone correctly who doesnt treat them properly.

Last paragraph: I agree that we don’t need lessons of forgiveness, I think the “turn the other cheek” cause more harm then good. Some  ******* treats you bad and you are supposed to forgive them, No, no and no,. I think if someone treats me bad I am not going to waste my time on them let alone forgive them. It isn’t. a matter of forgiveness with an ******* it is a matter of firm boundaries, 

[Duke Wellington]

36 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Why am I not surprised. 

Hey RM have you read In Sheep’s Clothing by Dr.George Simon?
I literally thought you would love this book. Lol

I would estimate that about half of the population cannot grasp that wolves actually exist.

Its like they suffer from a childish naivety about what human nature is really like. The worst wolves are the sociopaths, and they on average make up 5% of the population. More in a deprived area, less in an affluent ones

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, jypsijemini said:

I'm really on the fence about it all - on the one hand, I'd like to think that the world could become a better place with increased forgiveness but at the same time, I recognise that there are many people out there who refuse to change and treat people better, regardless of how much forgiveness, love and support they receive. You'd think that something in them would bring about change when they can see the clear contrast between pain and abuse, and love and forgiveness - but they don't. For some people, no amount of external influences or circumstances brings them to a decision to change.

I fear that my ex never learned his lesson. I fear that he's just getting better at hiding his true self for longer. I feel as though he sees himself more as a victim than a perpetrator - though it was his abuse which ultimately brought out the bad side in me. I cheated on him because I knew it would end things, and I wanted to hurt him back. I'm not at all proud of what I did because it hardly speaks of courage or strength in just being able to walk out and leave him - but I didn't know how it would go down when I told him either. He'd been incredibly physically violent on numerous occasions so I don't know why it didn't occur to me that the moment I told him what I'd done could be my last. I think I really just wanted to hurt him as much as I could without considering what the worst-case consequences might be.

He abused the girl he dated before me just the same. I remember very early on, she was calling him late at night and putting other guys on the phone who were threatening him and calling him a 'woman basher'. He was adamant that these claims were false. I found out pretty soon after that she was right. She'd also cheated on him - but he always painted her out to be this selfish, promiscuous, disloyal **** that ruined his life. And I believed him right up until the end. I realised that it had so much more to do with his constant abuse - mostly emotional, financial, sexual, mental, verbal abuse - that pushes his partners over the edge and into some uncharacteristic toxic behaviours. It's not an excuse, but I started to see a pattern. She had turned to ice to escape her reality and I was smoking the devil's lettuce every day to escape mine. We both saw cheating as a way to pay him back for what he was putting us through.

But now that I've distanced myself from him and rediscovered who I really am and what I value, I can't help but to wish better for him and his life. I hate what he did. I hate the memories. I hate that things still trigger me sometimes and bring the pain flooding back. I wish I could flip a switch and turn it all off. I wish I could tear those chapters out of my life-book and burn them and be rid of them forever. Forgiveness won't fix it or erase the memories. There's no excuse for what he did, whether he's mentally ill or whether he's suffering his own traumas - or whether it's the fact that he was an ice-head for over three years. There's no excuse.

But I want his life to be better because it's the only way he'd have the potential to treat someone better than he has in the past. I thought that I'd given him that, but he abused me anyway. Maybe he'll never change. But he's out of my life now. If I keep hating him, he stays in my life. He continues to be part of my story and I want him out. Forgiveness, for me, is the ability to turn the page and begin the process of allowing time to fade the memories. The more that I associate any type of feeling with him, the harder it will be to tune him out of my head. Forgiving doesn't require me to feel anything for him. I don't pity him. I don't care about him. I pity the other people who will come into his life and I care about them. I don't know who they are - so the only thing that makes me feel any better is just hoping that he will change and treat people right for once. Especially his own mother. Lord, he was a real scumbag to her. Another red flag, I know.

Abuse will always make me angry. I don't think I could ever understand or forgive someone who abuses a child in any way, shape or form. And I need to remind myself that adults are no different - all cases of such abuse are undeserved and equally wrong, regardless of age and vulnerability. I think I just take too much consideration on how flawed and broken most people are, and try to empathise with each person's situation. I feel as though I have no right to judge because I've knowingly and unknowingly done things to hurt others as well.

The only times where I like my own anger is when something is black and white and I know how wrong it feels to me, where there's no circumstantial excuses or explanations for a person's behaviour. Where the victim was so grievously and completely wronged by a perpetrator that absolutely no part of me can even begin to want to understand why or how.

I really like this discussion because it's bringing forth an element of emotion that I've suppressed all my life. Growing up as a Christian, there were very few times where anger was acceptable or appropriate. I've suppressed a lot of anger for the majority of my life and it's great to start exploring that with other people who have another view on it.

Thank you! <3

You are in the right place, glad to have you here. This is good for you.

[+Sherapy]

2 minutes ago, RabidMongoose said:

I would estimate that about half of the population cannot grasp that wolves actually exist.

Its like they suffer from a childish naivety about what human nature is really like. The worst wolves are the sociopaths, and they on average make up 5% of the population. More in a deprived area, less in an affluent ones

I would say they are in the affluent areas too. 
 
 

Have you read this book? If not get it, you will love it. 

Edited December 11, 2019 by Sherapy

[+joc]

On 10/2/2019 at 11:18 AM, Kittens Are Jerks said:

I fail to understand how one needs to forgive in order to move forward.

An attempt to explain:

A random example:  I finish an oil painting which took hours and hours of hard dedicated work.  Person A  sees the painting and takes out a knife and slices it up real good.  My response will be anger.  My response will be a desire to kick Person A's ass.  

But....Person A is gone...ran off....no one even knows who Person A is because no one saw Person A destroy my painting. I am angry...very angry.  I have a choice what to do with my anger...I can focus on it, and increase it...    Not healthy.   Or...I can allow it to peak and pass and go on with my life.  But let's say the painting was incredibly special to me and I just cannot let go of the anger.  As the Guru Sri Bhagwan once said, If we sweep our anger under a rug...pretty soon it begins to stink.

So...the antidote to repressed anger is forgiveness.  I don't know who Person A is...but I recognize they are a disturbed individual...and I have a desire to go to Person A and say...Look you destroyed something special of mine, but I forgive you...I just want you to be a better person, etc, whatever, etc.  But I cannot do that because Person A is gone away.   

Must I then go look for Person A and find them and tell them to their face in order for them to be forgiven?  Of course not  because forgiveness is an action taken on the part of someone who has been harmed by another.  If I forgive Person A...it is about me at that point, not about Person A because they will likely never even know.  In forgiveness is the 'letting go' of anger...and the benefits of that are two fold.  First, it frees the angry person, and secondly, if Person A knows they are forgiven it also frees them perhaps.  But mostly...forgiveness frees the forgiver.  Being free of anger allows one to 'go on'.  Holding on to Anger is not healthy.  Forgiveness is a way to let go of that which is becoming stinky.

Edited December 11, 2019 by joc

[Duke Wellington]

53 minutes ago, joc said:

An attempt to explain:

A random example:  I finish an oil painting which took hours and hours of hard dedicated work.  Person A  sees the painting and takes out a knife and slices it up real good.  My response will be anger.  My response will be a desire to kick Person A's ass.  

But....Person A is gone...ran off....no one even knows who Person A is because no one saw Person A destroy my painting. I am angry...very angry.  I have a choice what to do with my anger...I can focus on it, and increase it...    Not healthy.   Or...I can allow it to peak and pass and go on with my life.  But let's say the painting was incredibly special to me and I just cannot let go of the anger.  As the Guru Sri Bhagwan once said, If we sweep our anger under a rug...pretty soon it begins to stink.

So...the antidote to repressed anger is forgiveness.  I don't know who Person A is...but I recognize they are a disturbed individual...and I have a desire to go to Person A and say...Look you destroyed something special of mine, but I forgive you...I just want you to be a better person, etc, whatever, etc.  But I cannot do that because Person A is gone away.   

Must I then go look for Person A and find them and tell them to their face in order for them to be forgiven?  Of course not  because forgiveness is an action taken on the part of someone who has been harmed by another.  If I forgive Person A...it is about me at that point, not about Person A because they will likely never even know.  In forgiveness is the 'letting go' of anger...and the benefits of that are two fold.  First, it frees the angry person, and secondly, if Person A knows they are forgiven it also frees them perhaps.  But mostly...forgiveness frees the forgiver.  Being free of anger allows one to 'go on'.  Holding on to Anger is not healthy.  Forgiveness is a way to let go of that which is becoming stinky.

Kicking their butt is an even better remedy for anger.