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Cake or Death

Why is Jesus so late?

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joc
4 hours ago, rashore said:

Is he actually late? His followers life times are still going on. If Christianity became a dead religion then would be the time to wonder about Jesus's timing.

A joke I heard once:

Three preachers talking outside of the church building.  First:  Now Brothers...I am a Pre-millennialist...I believe that first Jesus will return and then there will be a thousand years of peace.  Second:  I disagree Brother...I am a Post-millennialist!  I believe that first there will be a thousand years of peace and then Jesus will return.  Both preachers looked at the third...What say you brother?   Third:  Well, I am a Pan-millennialist.  First:  Brother I have never even heard of a pan-millinennialist...what is it that the pan-millinialists believe?          Third:  I just believe that everything is going to pan out alright!

 

How can he be late?  If he's not late after 2000 years...what's another couple of hundred or so?

Edited by joc
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Piney
On 12/31/2019 at 12:43 PM, Alchopwn said:

Daddy Issues?  I guess I blew my chance at getting her number :whistle:

Geezus Al!  She's in her 80s! :o

5 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Will our myths and religions find root on other worlds that we might colonize? Will they adapt and change. The "promised land" might become the "promised world". Who truly knows? I don't. 

Some sort of Foundation Series or Battlestar Galactica stuff where Earth was the sacred home. 

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XenoFish
8 minutes ago, Piney said:

Some sort of Foundation Series or Battlestar Galactica stuff where Earth was the sacred home. 

Earth might become a myth and stories of space gods (humans) that 'created mankind' on the world that humans have colonized and terraformed millennia from now.

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
2 hours ago, Piney said:

Geezus Al!  She's in her 80s! :o

Some sort of Foundation Series or Battlestar Galactica stuff where Earth was the sacred home. 

I recently went through the Foundation series on Audible. Its a oldie but its still good. :tu:

"Violence is the refuge of the incompetent" is just as true today as it was back then. Coincidentally its also a central message in what jesus (might have) said.

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Alchopwn
11 hours ago, Piney said:

Geezus Al!  She's in her 80s! :o

LMAO, perhaps I still have a chance then?  :devil: (jk)

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XenoFish
On 12/29/2019 at 10:07 AM, Helen of Annoy said:

I didn't read the thread, so excuse me if someone already mentioned this: 

"No one knows the day or the hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows." Matthew 24:36-42

Because of that, I keep being surprised when Christians are debating the exact date of the Second Coming. They're supposed to believe it will happen, but they're absolutely not supposed to know when, since it would mean they know more than Jesus and angels. 

 

One thought I had regarding Jesus's return. What if it's only grim reaper style. Basically Jesus drops in and takes the souls of believer off to heaven. So the date is technically unknown till the believer dies. Just something to think about, considering spiritual things tend to be more psychological. 

Edited by XenoFish
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Habitat
On 12/31/2019 at 5:14 AM, Alchopwn said:

I am trying to wake you up to the fact that you have been lied to in the most egregious fashion possible,

So your motive is to perform a public service ? Perhaps as well as convincing others, you are also engaged in convincing yourself ?

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Alchopwn
2 hours ago, Habitat said:

So your motive is to perform a public service ? Perhaps as well as convincing others, you are also engaged in convincing yourself ?

That would be awfully convenient for you, wouldn't it?  But no.  In fact I am always puzzled that some people, such as yourself, are quite so determined to believe things that are so obviously untrue.  I know you say that you aren't a cultist of the  jewish zombie, but we both know you're lying, so why maintain the pretence?  You must really love perpetuating falsehood; it's the only explanation that fits.

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Helen of Annoy
9 hours ago, XenoFish said:

One thought I had regarding Jesus's return. What if it's only grim reaper style. Basically Jesus drops in and takes the souls of believer off to heaven. So the date is technically unknown till the believer dies. Just something to think about, considering spiritual things tend to be more psychological. 

Well, I see any religion as a set of metaphors that were supposed to help people visualize the stuff we don't even have the right vocabulary to talk about.

And I do agree with you that a lot of what people think is spiritual - is actually psychological. So in my opinion a lot of human attempts at interpretation of their own religion are psychological projections.

That rapture stuff that's popular in American cults (and almost nonexistent in the old Christian churches) is pure projection. And it's rather unpleasantly elitist fantasy that's being projected: you heathens will burn while I, the pure and deserving one, will go enjoy in Heaven. Oh, really? You can enjoy yourself while knowing there are souls burning in Hell? How selfish.

This is - very simplified - why the idea of Hell as an actual afterlife to possibly be condemned to is losing popularity. Eternity in Hell is an illogical notion, if higher power (often called and visualized as God) is constructive and loving. Hell of own making, with the higher power always ready to welcome you back from is something I can see daily - the Hell part, not that I can see the higher power. 

To cut my own rant short, the world may end tomorrow and it still won't prove or disprove any of countless beliefs. But the obsession with the end of times definitely does smell of obsession with own mortality, which is apparently easier for some people to accept if literally the whole world is ending with them. The more I think about it, the less spiritual it looks indeed. 

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Helen of Annoy
6 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

That would be awfully convenient for you, wouldn't it?  But no.  In fact I am always puzzled that some people, such as yourself, are quite so determined to believe things that are so obviously untrue.  I know you say that you aren't a cultist of the  jewish zombie, but we both know you're lying, so why maintain the pretence?  You must really love perpetuating falsehood; it's the only explanation that fits.

Aw, man, why so harsh? 

I know there obviously are people whose interpretation of religion is magical: you say the right words to control the reality, others mostly, but it's not how everyone is thinking. 

Me, for example. I see no logic in random Universe. My whole experience points out to the meaning in seeming chaos. But I don't think I can know what happened 2,000 years ago in the Middle East, or that it can explain who are we and what are we doing here. In the sense we, the humans, here on Earth, not we in this thread, we're obviously doing mental gymnastics. 

What I'm trying to say is that I would appreciate a little bit of tolerance. 

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Habitat
7 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

, but we both know you're lying, so why maintain the pretence? 

No, I don't have any great allegiance with the portrayal of JC as represented by the church, it is clearly to me the story of a mystic, who is basically laying out of prescription for others to follow him, in undertaking mystical union with God. It doesn't even matter if the story isn't strictly accurate to a particular person, there have been many such people since antiquity, the personalities are not that important, what matters is that people understand that this potentiality exists, and dismissal of it as nonsense is simply a token of ignorance.

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Alchopwn
12 hours ago, Habitat said:

No, I don't have any great allegiance with the portrayal of JC as represented by the church, it is clearly to me the story of a mystic, who is basically laying out of prescription for others to follow him, in undertaking mystical union with God. It doesn't even matter if the story isn't strictly accurate to a particular person, there have been many such people since antiquity, the personalities are not that important, what matters is that people understand that this potentiality exists, and dismissal of it as nonsense is simply a token of ignorance.

HA HA which church is it you have no allegiance to?  There are over twenty thousand of them in the USA alone; each with a different message.  All I see is a mess of money grubbing, mental illness, and the politics of narcissism of small differences in pursuit of being tax free.  As for wanting a mystical union with the most egregious and loathsome character in literature (the God of the Jews), I suppose it explains a bit about you, but I personally cannot see any attraction to that prospect whatsoever.  I mean, why not opt for Voldemort, Sauron, or Darth Vader.  Any of them are every bit as real as Yahveh, and morally superior to his depiction in the Bible.

Edited by Alchopwn
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Alchopwn
14 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

But I don't think I can know what happened 2,000 years ago in the Middle East, or that it can explain who are we and what are we doing here. In the sense we, the humans, here on Earth, not we in this thread, we're obviously doing mental gymnastics.

Well, as a person who specializes in reading different languages, and who has made a living translating old Middle Eastern documents, I think we are getting a better picture of the Ancient Middle East ever year, and it isn't what religions would have us believe. Added to ongoing archaeology in the region, a very rich picture of the life and times of the region is being recreated. 

14 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

What I'm trying to say is that I would appreciate a little bit of tolerance. 

Nah.  History shows that for Atheists, tolerance gets you burned at the stake.

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Habitat
15 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

As for wanting a mystical union with the most egregious and loathsome character in literature (the God of the Jews), I suppose it explains a bit about you, but I personally cannot see any attraction to that prospect whatsoever.

This is just a failure on your part to divorce yourself from what is a fictional literary character. A remarkable piece of silliness for someone who studies old texts for a living. The OT God is as convincing a literary invention as Lois Lane not noticing that Clark Kent and Superman are one and the same.

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Alchopwn
6 minutes ago, Habitat said:

This is just a failure on your part to divorce yourself from what is a fictional literary character. A remarkable piece of silliness for someone who studies old texts for a living. The OT God is as convincing a literary invention as Lois Lane not noticing that Clark Kent and Superman are one and the same.

Well, the thing is, to consider yourself a monotheist, you inevitably wind up having to believe in some version of scriptural nonsense.  And there is no other evidence, save for this horrible character in this very bad shared world anthology.  This is why I reject monotheism.  I prefer Taoism, but I am never uncritical of anything I read, so I am well aware of its shortcomings.

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Helen of Annoy
7 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Well, as a person who specializes in reading different languages, and who has made a living translating old Middle Eastern documents, I think we are getting a better picture of the Ancient Middle East ever year, and it isn't what religions would have us believe. Added to ongoing archaeology in the region, a very rich picture of the life and times of the region is being recreated. 

I don't think you could impress the believers with the lack of the historic accuracy in their scriptures. Because faith doesn't wait for science to back it up. Of course, who am I to stop you in your crusade, I'm just making an observation. 

And personally, I think the religions are not about their origins, they're about sharing, about common experience.

 

7 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

Nah.  History shows that for Atheists, tolerance gets you burned at the stake.

I'm old enough to remember atheists ruining and even taking lives of religious people.

I'm trying to say it works both ways and no matter what flavour of the excuse, it's just a**hole-ish to attack people based on their faith or absence of it.       

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XenoFish
22 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Well, I see any religion as a set of metaphors that were supposed to help people visualize the stuff we don't even have the right vocabulary to talk about.

If they are used only as tools to illustrate lessons, then that's what should be done. Instead of taking them literal. 

And I do agree with you that a lot of what people think is spiritual - is actually psychological. So in my opinion a lot of human attempts at interpretation of their own religion are psychological projections.

Not only our own idea of spirituality/religion, but others concepts of it as well. Religion is just someone else's spirituality. 

That rapture stuff that's popular in American cults (and almost nonexistent in the old Christian churches) is pure projection. And it's rather unpleasantly elitist fantasy that's being projected: you heathens will burn while I, the pure and deserving one, will go enjoy in Heaven. Oh, really? You can enjoy yourself while knowing there are souls burning in Hell? How selfish.

I would think that instead of waiting with a heart full of excite me for the end of days, it would be a personal quest to prevent it by helping make the world a better place. 

This is - very simplified - why the idea of Hell as an actual afterlife to possibly be condemned to is losing popularity. Eternity in Hell is an illogical notion, if higher power (often called and visualized as God) is constructive and loving. Hell of own making, with the higher power always ready to welcome you back from is something I can see daily - the Hell part, not that I can see the higher power. 

I think that heaven and hell are purely subjective things. Meaning our lives can be both heaven and hell. If anything, hell might be a place to "burn away" the life you've lived. Like smelting raw iron. You've got to get all the contaminates out of it. Once that's done who knows, might be reincarnated or whatever.

To cut my own rant short, the world may end tomorrow and it still won't prove or disprove any of countless beliefs. But the obsession with the end of times definitely does smell of obsession with own mortality, which is apparently easier for some people to accept if literally the whole world is ending with them. The more I think about it, the less spiritual it looks indeed. 

I find the obsession  with the end of times to be utterly nihilistic. 

 

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Helen of Annoy
47 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I find the obsession  with the end of times to be utterly nihilistic. 

Makes sense. Still it strikes me more as an egotist impulse: if I can't live (this, earthly) life forever, no one can.

Well, duh, no one can. We need no apocalypse to drop dead, death is the most guaranteed fact of every life. But you were absolutely correct - in my opinion - when you pointed out that it's psychological.

One more reason why I think the end times obsession has egotist, narcissist even, roots is that it implies that person thinks they can actually stick their nose into God's business. Take a peek at God's planner. It would be almost cute if it wasn't so... arrogant.  

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Makes sense. Still it strikes me more as an egotist impulse: if I can't live (this, earthly) life forever, no one can.

Well, duh, no one can. We need no apocalypse to drop dead, death is the most guaranteed fact of every life. But you were absolutely correct - in my opinion - when you pointed out that it's psychological.

One more reason why I think the end times obsession has egotist, narcissist even, roots is that it implies that person thinks they can actually stick their nose into God's business. Take a peek at God's planner. It would be almost cute if it wasn't so... arrogant.  

I think such things are born from a subconscious need for attention. To be above others. Especially in a spiritual way. My god is the only god and your god is a false god. Jesus will take me to heaven, etc. I also find the idea that god would rearrange the world just because a request was made to be absurd. 

In case of such wish fulfillment, it is the thinker who has thought, and those thoughts cause the thinker to seek what they have thought. God answers no prayers,  we only seek confirmation of our request.

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Helen of Annoy
13 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I think such things are born from a subconscious need for attention. To be above others. Especially in a spiritual way. My god is the only god and your god is a false god. Jesus will take me to heaven, etc. I also find the idea that god would rearrange the world just because a request was made to be absurd. 

I absolutely agree. 

 

13 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

In case of such wish fulfillment, it is the thinker who has thought, and those thoughts cause the thinker to seek what they have thought. God answers no prayers,  we only seek confirmation of our request.

But I'm not so sure about that. The way I feel it, higher power is not an outside force, manipulating us. We're part of it. Prayer is an attempt to reach the state of awareness of that simple fact. 

In those rare moments all the petty requests fade. Or it could be schizophrenia :lol: Kidding.

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Alchopwn
2 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

I don't think you could impress the believers with the lack of the historic accuracy in their scriptures. Because faith doesn't wait for science to back it up. Of course, who am I to stop you in your crusade, I'm just making an observation. And personally, I think the religions are not about their origins, they're about sharing, about common experience.

Yeah, it just seems so deranged and ridiculous to me that some people are determined to believe in a complete lie regardless of the evidence that is put in front of them.  It is like showing someone that they are being taken for a ride by a con artist, clearly and plainly, and yet they refuse to listen.  What makes a person want to get ripped off so badly?  I know that according to the saying that "you can fool some of the people all of the time", and I just chalk it up to the perverse idiocy and mental illness that some people get around the subject of death.

As to religions being about sharing and common experience, given that the sharing and common experience amounts to dressing up one day a week and going to a building to pay to hear a con-man in a dress declaim platitudes at you, and then you all sing a few songs and go home. I fail to see the appeal.  Then again I suppose nature needs to punish idiots once a week or something.

2 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

I'm old enough to remember atheists ruining and even taking lives of religious people.

ORLY.  References or I call B.S.  If you live in the USA, the violence traffic is all the other direction.  There are many US states where you can't hold public office and be an atheist.  This comment tells me exactly what your game is Helen.

2 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

I'm trying to say it works both ways and no matter what flavour of the excuse, it's just a**hole-ish to attack people based on their faith or absence of it.       

On the contrary, there has been a continuous erosion of the separation of Church and State in the USA for the last 100 years.  Little items of B.S. like whey they illegally put "in god we trust" on the currency, but more active political maneuvering  like the "the family" conspiracy.  Atheists didn't start this fight, but they are winning it, and will end it, not with a banning of religion, but with people ultimately realizing that religion is all lies and letting it die a natural death, but for that to happen, the religious need to be challenged at every turn.

Edited by Alchopwn
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docyabut2
On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 12:37 PM, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Just before the part docyabut quoted we have this:

17:21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You

Not only is it sexual, but it also promotes homosexuality and incest. I mean he is talking about being inside his father. I wonder why she left out that part. :innocent:

its not sexual but spiritual;;)

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

its not sexual but spiritual;;)

It was just a joke in response to @Alchopwn's post. Hence why I put a smiley at the end. 

What I'm trying to say is that it was his fault ! :whistle:

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XenoFish
2 hours ago, Helen of Annoy said:

But I'm not so sure about that. The way I feel it, higher power is not an outside force, manipulating us. We're part of it. Prayer is an attempt to reach the state of awareness of that simple fact. 

That 'higher power' is just the subconscious. How you program it, how culture influences it, what you were taught as a kid shaped it. Prayer is just an affirmation. Though it can be a useful system of affirmations on occasion.

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docyabut2

If you read the Bible in Jesus  words, all point to he and god were within us all (  the trinity ) him self , god and the holy spirit .

Edited by docyabut2

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